Clerics post Expansion

[FranOhmsford]

According to the Release Notes:

Combat Expertise is increasing Spell Cooldowns by x3
Defensive Fighting is doing the Same.

Hard to Kill is going to hammer Slay Living, Destruction and Implosion.

Supposedly Clerics aren't being given Armour bonuses equivalent to them being Hvy Armour users too.

Are we going to be Healbots from here on in?

Please Devs, Please allow Clerics {and FavSouls} to have AC and PR.

Change that Spell Cooldowns to Arcane Spell Cooldowns.

Allow Implosion to bypass Hard to Kill at least {possibly Destruction too - These are Powers granted by God and should be different to Arcane Spells} - Clerics don't actually have the greatest DCs after all. {increase their cost so FavSouls don't become the new Pale Masters}.

And for goodness sake - Take a look at Turn Undead {For HotD Paladins too} and let us spec for it to be usable in all content.

[PNellesen]

Wha? You want Clerics to do more than just HEAL and Turn Undead now and then??? Are you INSANE? Next thing you know, they'll be doing things like soloing Elite Chains of Flame for Bravery bonus, or actually STANDING WITH THE MELEES TO FIGHT AND CAST OFFENSIVE SPELLS in the Shroud, VoD, and ToD, and that would just be wrong.

/not signed /sarcasm

[FranOhmsford]

Wha? You want Clerics to do more than just HEAL and Turn Undead now and then??? Are you INSANE? Next thing you know, they'll be doing things like soloing Elite Chains of Flame for Bravery bonus, or actually STANDING WITH THE MELEES TO FIGHT AND CAST OFFENSIVE SPELLS in the Shroud, VoD, and ToD, and that would just be wrong.

/not signed /sarcasm

You might want to change that Color on your /sarcasm just in case any of the devs with bad eyesight get the wrong idea

Btw it's the PLAYER who's capable of Soloing E-CoF {or even Elite CoF for BB} not the CHARACTER.

[Khatzhas]

We may have to wait for the update after the expansion for some of those changes. The reason that clerics look like they are designed as healers is because their only current PrE is the primary healer one.
I'd guess that they need to leave a gap in melee performance into which they can fit the Warpriest for example.

Fortunately it looks like Hard to kill is being replaced with the Haunting mechanic which will impact clerics much less.

A question though: where is this claim that clerics aren't getting the AC for the armour they wear coming from? You've mentioned it a few times, but I couldn't find any basis for it in the current release forums.

[Maxallu]

A question though: where is this claim that clerics aren't getting the AC for the armour they wear coming from? You've mentioned it a few times, but I couldn't find any basis for it in the current release forums.

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

[Masadique]

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

No, clerics can no longer use combat expertise because it reduces their CDs. See? Now all those builds which were reliant on CE will be massively nerfed. feelsbadman.jpg

V

Pst, sarcasm.

[Havok.cry]

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

Actually, I think it is a throwback to round one of the closed beta where all the other heavy armor users got 5% per level bonuses to AC. It was removed after round one, but some people didnt notice that no one gets them anymore. Thats what I assume he is referancing anyway.

Edit: as to the combat expertise thing: OP they dropped double spell cost (I think thats whats live right now) and replaced it with 3x cooldown. I think thats a good thing personally.

[WruntJunior]

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

Comes from the Combat Training feat, which in the original version of the AC pass, was not given to clerics...made their AC rather lower than Fighters and the like. Of course, this is outdated information.

If this isn't what he means, then I have no idea. >_>

[DeafeningWhisper]

Actually I think it is a throwback to round one of the closed beta where all the other heavy armor users got 5% per level bonuses to AC. It was removed after round one, but some people didnt notice that no one gets them anymore. Thats what I assume he is referancing anyway.

Yeah, pretty sure he meant Combat Training which was removed in Beta 4 just before open Beta.

Rangers and Ftrs got the full bonus, rogues, paladins and barb half bonus, or something to that effect if I remember well.

[butcheredspirit]

Allow Implosion to bypass Hard to Kill at least {possibly Destruction too - These are Powers granted by God and should be different to Arcane Spells} - Clerics don't actually have the greatest DCs after all. {increase their cost so FavSouls don't become the new Pale Masters}.

Increasing the sp cost, only penalises the cleric with their lower sp pool.
Implosion already has several balancing factors.

It seems the devs want us to be using insta-kills less.
Well if that's the case we need enhancements for all our DPS spells.
We also should get the new spells that are arriving with the druid, which also appear on the pnp cleric spell list.

I don't think divines need a nerf, when so much of the class is missing.
I haven't had anyone complain to me about how overpowered clerics are.

[DeafeningWhisper]

We also should get the new spells that are arriving with the druid, which also appear on the pnp cleric spell list

This really bothers me, they gave to rangers the new spells they share with druids in PnP but not clerics, it feels like they don't want clerics to "compete" with druids or something.

[butcheredspirit]

This really bothers me, they gave to rangers the new spells they share with druids in PnP but not clerics, it feels like they don't want clerics to "compete" with druids or something.

Yes.
Although last i heard rangers did not receive an animal companion at level 4?

I was surprised when I heard this, seems a little unfair for them.

I honestly don't think cleric's and rangers need to be held back...

[DeafeningWhisper]

Yes.
Although last i heard rangers did not receive an animal companion at level 4?

I was surprised when I heard this, seems a little unfair for them.

I honestly don't think cleric's and rangers need to be held back...

LOL, it was funny a forumite asked:
"So now that we have 2 classes with pets. Will Rangers, the class that economically always had a companion, be getting a pet?"
Dev response: "It's not in the works"

[Stillwaters]

Hard to Kill is going to hammer Slay Living, Destruction and Implosion.

Allow Implosion to bypass Hard to Kill at least {possibly Destruction too - These are Powers granted by God and should be different to Arcane Spells} - Clerics don't actually have the greatest DCs after all. {increase their cost so FavSouls don't become the new Pale Masters}.

And for goodness sake - Take a look at Turn Undead {For HotD Paladins too} and let us spec for it to be usable in all content.

HTK is gone... HAUNTING allows these spells to be cast, for every kill you get -2 to your DCs (stacking) that are removed at 2 per 15 seconds.
YOU can INSTAKILL 4 mobs per min with absolutely no negative effect!!!!!

The 5 kills MAX you would get from Implosion will give you -10 "killspell" DCs with +2 back every 15 seconds... how long is the cooldown on implosion again??? 60seconds the penalty is gone by time it rolls around again a lot of the time.
Implosion being nerfed DEBUNKED!!!

Destruction has 5 second cooldown and max 1 kill, think of this as a +10second soft cooldown (2 less casts with OPTION of doing em anyway)
destruction nerf = moderate

Slay living has 8sec cooldown and max 1 kill and is touch ranged yuk, think of this as a +7second soft cooldown (~1 less casts with OPTION of doing em anyway)
slay living nerf = minor

Over a minute a maxed out divine DC caster wading into combat might throw:
1 implosion, 12 destruction, 7 slay living
if every one was 100% successful you killed 24 mobs in a minute. <--best case scenario
mind you this is pretty unlikely, I usually threw about 1/2 to 1/4 this on live.
You could still do close to this, but after the first min you might need a breather to chase of the pesky ghosts before spamming it again.

Lol arcanes could do this with a single cast WAIL and still have FoD, and Circ'o'death, oh and PWK is unaffected at all as it has no save..

And turn undead has MANY other uses aside from killing/scaring undead, but i do agree with you it should be possible to use in epic content for its original purpose


SIDENOTE:
Wail is the biggest thing getting nerfed, and not really "wail spell" but the gather 20 mobs in one spot and wail, then repeat until you reach the endboss, "wail tactic". And even that tactic is still possible, you just alt-tab between rooms to read online comics... Or maybe party with someone else so you could share the haunting downtimes around.

[dredre9987]

snip

Allow Implosion to bypass Hard to Kill at least {possibly Destruction too - These are Powers granted by God and should be different to Arcane Spells}
snip
.

Deities are not really granting spells in Eberron..Check up on your Eberron lore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_of_Eberron

[azrael4h]

Edit: as to the combat expertise thing: OP they dropped double spell cost (I think thats whats live right now) and replaced it with 3x cooldown. I think thats a good thing personally.

Why, exactly? Clerics do not have the feats to burn on 5 middling AC on live, and in fact would get more with a Monk level. Likewise with Favored Souls. Both are feat-starved classes. Wizards do not have the AC to make it matter. Nor do Sorcerers. So they won't be taking CE either.

So in the end, the only classes that are actually affected by CE's nerfing of spell cooldowns or cost are... Paladins and Rangers, who both can achieve viable AC more easily and have sp-based healing. So the change, in fact, nerfs Paladins and Rangers' already limited self healing. While Clerics, FvS, Wizards, and Sorcerers will continue to never take that feat anyway. PA at least you have the thought of Clerics and FvS being built for melee and using that. Of course, this simply further removes viability from a class variant, one that's already marginal. Of course, it also affects Bards, who are far more likely to be a melee-focused build. But those are buff-bots only, and no one plays them anyway. /sarcasm

[Havok.cry]

Why, exactly? Clerics do not have the feats to burn on 5 middling AC on live, and in fact would get more with a Monk level. Likewise with Favored Souls. Both are feat-starved classes. Wizards do not have the AC to make it matter. Nor do Sorcerers. So they won't be taking CE either.

So in the end, the only classes that are actually affected by CE's nerfing of spell cooldowns or cost are... Paladins and Rangers, who both can achieve viable AC more easily and have sp-based healing. So the change, in fact, nerfs Paladins and Rangers' already limited self healing. While Clerics, FvS, Wizards, and Sorcerers will continue to never take that feat anyway. PA at least you have the thought of Clerics and FvS being built for melee and using that. Of course, this simply further removes viability from a class variant, one that's already marginal. Of course, it also affects Bards, who are far more likely to be a melee-focused build. But those are buff-bots only, and no one plays them anyway. /sarcasm

My bear disagrees with you, so does my twilight mithral full plate wearing elven palemaster, both of who's AC is actually about to matter. Now bare in mind I think any penalty for casters having it is dumb, but if the devs are insisting on giving casters a penalty for it, I, personally, would much rather have 3x the cooldown on stuff, than spend twice as much sp per spell.

And also every paladin and ranger I have used would also prefer 3x cooldowns over double sp costs, especially the ones who actually took combat expertise, and have the AC to not need healing nearly as often. They don't have a big sp pool, and as far as self heals go this change just doubled it. I don't consider it a nerf for them, more of a neutral change of the status quo, but that's my opinion.

That's right, if you actually have combat expertise, you should have the AC to not be worried about longer cooldowns, or you wasted your feat in my opinion. And if you aren't taking the feat because you don't have the AC, and don't have feats to burn how is this a nerf to you?

[Havok.cry]

It would be cool if turn undead could turn the haunted counters, and make them run away.

[Flavilandile]

It would be cool if turn undead could turn the haunted counters, and make them run away.

And Heal Spells Harming PMs in undead form ?

[DarkSable]

The 5 kills MAX you would get from Implosion will give you -10 "killspell" DCs with +2 back every 15 seconds... how long is the cooldown on implosion again??? 60seconds the penalty is gone by time it rolls around again a lot of the time.
Implosion being nerfed DEBUNKED!!!

You forget something. Implosion doesn't work like the rest of spells. It doesn't take the closest 5 mobs and roll checks to kill them like, say, wail does. It works over time.

Thus: Your first implosion check will, in fact, have no nerf. If it's successful (which it should be with no penalty), your next implosion check is made at a -2 check, then -4, and so on. So in fact, Implosion is getting a nerf, causing it to only really be reliable for the first couple kills, which makes it horribly sp inefficient.


(Oh! And did you notice how I managed to do that without being arrogant, insulting, or using color and capital letters and multiple exclamation marks to proclaim to the world how much better I am than the rest of you? You should try it some time.)