Clerics post Expansion

[FranOhmsford]

According to the Release Notes:

Combat Expertise is increasing Spell Cooldowns by x3
Defensive Fighting is doing the Same.

Hard to Kill is going to hammer Slay Living, Destruction and Implosion.

Supposedly Clerics aren't being given Armour bonuses equivalent to them being Hvy Armour users too.

Are we going to be Healbots from here on in?

Please Devs, Please allow Clerics {and FavSouls} to have AC and PR.

Change that Spell Cooldowns to Arcane Spell Cooldowns.

Allow Implosion to bypass Hard to Kill at least {possibly Destruction too - These are Powers granted by God and should be different to Arcane Spells} - Clerics don't actually have the greatest DCs after all. {increase their cost so FavSouls don't become the new Pale Masters}.

And for goodness sake - Take a look at Turn Undead {For HotD Paladins too} and let us spec for it to be usable in all content.

[PNellesen]

Wha? You want Clerics to do more than just HEAL and Turn Undead now and then??? Are you INSANE? Next thing you know, they'll be doing things like soloing Elite Chains of Flame for Bravery bonus, or actually STANDING WITH THE MELEES TO FIGHT AND CAST OFFENSIVE SPELLS in the Shroud, VoD, and ToD, and that would just be wrong.

/not signed /sarcasm

[FranOhmsford]

Wha? You want Clerics to do more than just HEAL and Turn Undead now and then??? Are you INSANE? Next thing you know, they'll be doing things like soloing Elite Chains of Flame for Bravery bonus, or actually STANDING WITH THE MELEES TO FIGHT AND CAST OFFENSIVE SPELLS in the Shroud, VoD, and ToD, and that would just be wrong.

/not signed /sarcasm

You might want to change that Color on your /sarcasm just in case any of the devs with bad eyesight get the wrong idea

Btw it's the PLAYER who's capable of Soloing E-CoF {or even Elite CoF for BB} not the CHARACTER.

[Khatzhas]

We may have to wait for the update after the expansion for some of those changes. The reason that clerics look like they are designed as healers is because their only current PrE is the primary healer one.
I'd guess that they need to leave a gap in melee performance into which they can fit the Warpriest for example.

Fortunately it looks like Hard to kill is being replaced with the Haunting mechanic which will impact clerics much less.

A question though: where is this claim that clerics aren't getting the AC for the armour they wear coming from? You've mentioned it a few times, but I couldn't find any basis for it in the current release forums.

[Maxallu]

A question though: where is this claim that clerics aren't getting the AC for the armour they wear coming from? You've mentioned it a few times, but I couldn't find any basis for it in the current release forums.

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

[Masadique]

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

No, clerics can no longer use combat expertise because it reduces their CDs. See? Now all those builds which were reliant on CE will be massively nerfed. feelsbadman.jpg

V

Pst, sarcasm.

[Havok.cry]

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

Actually, I think it is a throwback to round one of the closed beta where all the other heavy armor users got 5% per level bonuses to AC. It was removed after round one, but some people didnt notice that no one gets them anymore. Thats what I assume he is referancing anyway.

Edit: as to the combat expertise thing: OP they dropped double spell cost (I think thats whats live right now) and replaced it with 3x cooldown. I think thats a good thing personally.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Actually I think it is a throwback to round one of the closed beta where all the other heavy armor users got 5% per level bonuses to AC. It was removed after round one, but some people didnt notice that no one gets them anymore. Thats what I assume he is referancing anyway.

Yeah, pretty sure he meant Combat Training which was removed in Beta 4 just before open Beta.

Rangers and Ftrs got the full bonus, rogues, paladins and barb half bonus, or something to that effect if I remember well.

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah, pretty sure he meant Combat Training which was removed in Beta 4 just before open Beta.

Rangers and Ftrs got the full bonus, rogues, paladins and barb half bonus, or something to that effect if I remember well.

Yes I was referring to Combat Training - Thank you for actually reporting when it was removed.

I uninstalled Lamannia on Beta III as my laptop was having problems so missed this change.

There was a massive thread on Combat Training btw - It shouldn't be hard to find - To the Person who accused me of Fear Mongering!

Surprised they removed it in it's entirety as it was a good change - I just don't see why they decided it shouldn't go to Clerics {who get Hvy Armour}.

The fact that the Devs decided it shouldn't go to Clerics and then got rid of it in it's entirety rather than fixing it tells me that they really do have it in for Clerics at the moment - I'd love to know why Devs?



As for Haunted - It's still a terrible change - It should not affect Implosion at all {And btw 5x15secs is 1 min 15 NOT 1 min - That's a nerf to an already weak spell {for it's level} + We still don't know whether the ticks on Implosion will apply the nerf to subsequent ticks}.
15 seconds in DDO is a lifetime - This is a huge nerf to Destruction - I'll let you have Slay Living as it's a rarely used spell anyway.


Now for CE - AC and PR are going to matter in the future - Clerics {If they're using their only pre} are going to take far more damage than before.
Mace and Shield Clerics are a staple of D&D - DDO's focus has forced 2 handed fighting on us BUT with these changes I was hoping we could get back to actually being able to use a shield - However we're not going to get anything close to enough AC and PR as things stand.

We also have the changes to Maximise and Empower - If CE was fixed to only cause Spellcasting issues for Arcanes then I could see CE getting taken by Divines.

It's the combination of nerfs that is getting to me here - I'm not a one trick pony - I actually try to build my characters for all eventualities {a throwback to PnP I know} so don't have maxed DCs or uber dmg or 1000pt Heals {except Sov Host of course}.
Now I'm getting nerfed in every way - Melee/Instakills/DPS/Heals - All of them are taking a hit.

[azrael4h]

Edit: as to the combat expertise thing: OP they dropped double spell cost (I think thats whats live right now) and replaced it with 3x cooldown. I think thats a good thing personally.

Why, exactly? Clerics do not have the feats to burn on 5 middling AC on live, and in fact would get more with a Monk level. Likewise with Favored Souls. Both are feat-starved classes. Wizards do not have the AC to make it matter. Nor do Sorcerers. So they won't be taking CE either.

So in the end, the only classes that are actually affected by CE's nerfing of spell cooldowns or cost are... Paladins and Rangers, who both can achieve viable AC more easily and have sp-based healing. So the change, in fact, nerfs Paladins and Rangers' already limited self healing. While Clerics, FvS, Wizards, and Sorcerers will continue to never take that feat anyway. PA at least you have the thought of Clerics and FvS being built for melee and using that. Of course, this simply further removes viability from a class variant, one that's already marginal. Of course, it also affects Bards, who are far more likely to be a melee-focused build. But those are buff-bots only, and no one plays them anyway. /sarcasm

[Havok.cry]

Why, exactly? Clerics do not have the feats to burn on 5 middling AC on live, and in fact would get more with a Monk level. Likewise with Favored Souls. Both are feat-starved classes. Wizards do not have the AC to make it matter. Nor do Sorcerers. So they won't be taking CE either.

So in the end, the only classes that are actually affected by CE's nerfing of spell cooldowns or cost are... Paladins and Rangers, who both can achieve viable AC more easily and have sp-based healing. So the change, in fact, nerfs Paladins and Rangers' already limited self healing. While Clerics, FvS, Wizards, and Sorcerers will continue to never take that feat anyway. PA at least you have the thought of Clerics and FvS being built for melee and using that. Of course, this simply further removes viability from a class variant, one that's already marginal. Of course, it also affects Bards, who are far more likely to be a melee-focused build. But those are buff-bots only, and no one plays them anyway. /sarcasm

My bear disagrees with you, so does my twilight mithral full plate wearing elven palemaster, both of who's AC is actually about to matter. Now bare in mind I think any penalty for casters having it is dumb, but if the devs are insisting on giving casters a penalty for it, I, personally, would much rather have 3x the cooldown on stuff, than spend twice as much sp per spell.

And also every paladin and ranger I have used would also prefer 3x cooldowns over double sp costs, especially the ones who actually took combat expertise, and have the AC to not need healing nearly as often. They don't have a big sp pool, and as far as self heals go this change just doubled it. I don't consider it a nerf for them, more of a neutral change of the status quo, but that's my opinion.

That's right, if you actually have combat expertise, you should have the AC to not be worried about longer cooldowns, or you wasted your feat in my opinion. And if you aren't taking the feat because you don't have the AC, and don't have feats to burn how is this a nerf to you?

[WruntJunior]

He can't, it is just silly fear mongering. Clerics can wear heavy armor, there is no reason it would be different for a cleric than any other heavy armor wearer.

Comes from the Combat Training feat, which in the original version of the AC pass, was not given to clerics...made their AC rather lower than Fighters and the like. Of course, this is outdated information.

If this isn't what he means, then I have no idea. >_>

[justagame]

We may have to wait for the update after the expansion for some of those changes. The reason that clerics look like they are designed as healers is because their only current PrE is the primary healer one.
I'd guess that they need to leave a gap in melee performance into which they can fit the Warpriest for example.

Fortunately it looks like Hard to kill is being replaced with the Haunting mechanic which will impact clerics much less.

A question though: where is this claim that clerics aren't getting the AC for the armour they wear coming from? You've mentioned it a few times, but I couldn't find any basis for it in the current release forums.

Are you kidding? Haunting is much much worse for clerics than HTK would have been.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Are you kidding? Haunting is much much worse for clerics than HTK would have been.

A lot of people seem to miss the fact that Haunted affects heroic levels as well as epics ones at all difficulties, he's not alone.

[dredre9987]

A lot of people seem to miss the fact that Haunted affects heroic levels as well as epics ones at all difficulties, he's not alone.

Haunting as with HTK is for epic hard/elites....They said they may be putting in a boost to saves vs. death spells...

QUOTE=Eladrin;4509707]SNIP


We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

SNIP
[/I][/QUOTE]



EDIT: I see this post now so might get to heroics NO confirmation as of yet though

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=111

[DeafeningWhisper]

Haunting as with HTK is for epic hard/elites....They said they may be putting in a boost to saves vs. death spells...

QUOTE=Eladrin;4509707]SNIP


We may consider a small buff on Hard/Elite/Epic Hard/Epic Elite difficulties to Saves vs. Death Magic for players and monsters at full or very high health, as well as a penalty at very low health, but at much smaller numbers than we were considering previously, when that was considered as a standalone system prior to the implementation of Hard to Kill.

SNIP
[/I]

[/QUOTE]

From Eladrin,s post on page 6 of the "Hard to Kill --> Haunting" thread:

"Is thise planned only for epic hard and epic elite?
Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency."

[butcheredspirit]

Allow Implosion to bypass Hard to Kill at least {possibly Destruction too - These are Powers granted by God and should be different to Arcane Spells} - Clerics don't actually have the greatest DCs after all. {increase their cost so FavSouls don't become the new Pale Masters}.

Increasing the sp cost, only penalises the cleric with their lower sp pool.
Implosion already has several balancing factors.

It seems the devs want us to be using insta-kills less.
Well if that's the case we need enhancements for all our DPS spells.
We also should get the new spells that are arriving with the druid, which also appear on the pnp cleric spell list.

I don't think divines need a nerf, when so much of the class is missing.
I haven't had anyone complain to me about how overpowered clerics are.

[DeafeningWhisper]

We also should get the new spells that are arriving with the druid, which also appear on the pnp cleric spell list

This really bothers me, they gave to rangers the new spells they share with druids in PnP but not clerics, it feels like they don't want clerics to "compete" with druids or something.

[butcheredspirit]

This really bothers me, they gave to rangers the new spells they share with druids in PnP but not clerics, it feels like they don't want clerics to "compete" with druids or something.

Yes.
Although last i heard rangers did not receive an animal companion at level 4?

I was surprised when I heard this, seems a little unfair for them.

I honestly don't think cleric's and rangers need to be held back...

[DeafeningWhisper]

Yes.
Although last i heard rangers did not receive an animal companion at level 4?

I was surprised when I heard this, seems a little unfair for them.

I honestly don't think cleric's and rangers need to be held back...

LOL, it was funny a forumite asked:
"So now that we have 2 classes with pets. Will Rangers, the class that economically always had a companion, be getting a pet?"
Dev response: "It's not in the works"