The Solution (tm)

[Destroyer_Omega]

I was planning to make this thread long ago, but couldn't make myself to do it. With the Hard to Kill stuff, and now Haunting stuff, I guess this is the last moment I can post it, without it being sweeped under the rug (hell, it will probably be sweeped under the rug anyway, but whatever ). And since I'm also talking about stuff that is in the expansion, I'm posting it in the Lamannia forums...

Also, don't take the title seriously.

There is one issue that bothers me, that made me to make this thread. I saw the Hard to Kill proposal, and the Haunting logic that is supposed to replace it, and I have to ask this question: what if non-Necromancy insta-kills will get added to the game? We already have Dismissal (Abjuration), Banishment (Abjuration, and "kills" many targets at once), Prismatic Ray/Spray (Evocation, not affected by Death Ward and Deathblock!), Trap the Soul (Conjuration, ignores Death Ward and Deathblock, but the cost...) and Implosion (Evocation). The Haunting does not affect those! Only Necromancy! If you're adding Haunting now, because all of the OMGPALEMASTERSAREOVERPOWEROMGNERFNAOOMG threads, then I have to say it won't actually fix the problem, it will just move it somehwere else.

Today Pale Masters are ruling epics with insta-kills. Tomorrow, it will be Clerics and FvS spamming Implosion. How will that be fixed? New Howling-like logic that affects evocation spells?
And why insta-kill at all, if there are still Sorcerers?! I have one too! Hell, I can just blast everything and it will be just as effective as casting Wail (except it will be for a bit more sp, but who cares, I have plenty of those!). So, next in line are The Overpowered Sorcerers That Trivialize All Content With Their Nukes? Will you create a DC debuff for Evocations too because of that?



Introduction
I know that many different solutions and ideas that are supposed to be The Solution were already posted, some good, some bad, and those here may actually be not any better than them (it's yours to judge). What I want to point out, however, is that most of them, and those actually implemented in the game, make us drift further away from the PnP 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons rules, which probably unbalances things even more.

Yes, I understand that DDO is more fast paced that PnP could ever be, and not everything from it applies here, but the core rules already had a balance factor that prevented spellcasters from spamming insta-kills (and other spells too) like no tomorrow: spell-limit-per-day. DDO does not have it. Sure, spellcasters have a spellpoint limit now, but how can one call it a "balance" when a Wail of Banshee costs 50sp, and a Wizard with 1.5k sp can cast it 30 times (more if the Wizard is a min-maxed and super-geared)? In PnP, he/she could do it maybe like 7 times, and only when it was a min-maxed, super-geared character.

In DDO, a Wizard with 1500 sp can cast those 7 Wails, and will still be able to use other lv. 9 spells. They can of course use those spellpoints to cast lower level spells, but they still can still choose to spam lv. 9 spells until they run out of sp, unlike PnP, where they would be forced to use lower level spells.



Proposed Fix
So, after you went through the long introduction (and partially a rant, sorry ), it is time to say something about The Solution (fanfares! glitter! and stuff! ) I have thought about. I have to warn you, though, that it will affect everyone that can cast spells in the game (but I think that we have to do it, if we are really thinking about balance). This basically brings us to the core D&D 3.5 rules. No, I'm not proposing getting rid of spell points! What I'm proposing is, put an additional limitation on spells each character can cast, which pretty much resembles spell-per-day limitation from PnP.

Part 1: Spell Slots per Rest (the name doesn't matter, I called it this way because it is pretty much like Spell Slots per Day in PnP)

To show how it is supposed to work, you'd have to know how Spell Slots work in PnP (well, I expect that at least some of the devs do ), and see the Spells per Day table for each class. Since I don't plan cover all classes here, I will use the Wizard class as an example (it works the same for all classes anyway).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/so...ard.htm#wizard

As you can see in the Spells per Day table, a Wizard can cast all spells 4 times per day on 20th level. But spellcasters can cast additional spells per day, depending on their main casting score. For the Wizard, of course, it is Intelligence. So, let's see how many extra spells can a Wizard with an Int of 40 cast on 20th level, in the Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells table.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores

A lv.20 wizard with 40 Int would have:

1st: 8 (4 + 4)
2nd: 8 (4 + 4)
3rd: 8 (4 + 4)
4th: 7 (4 + 3)
5th: 7 (4 + 3)
6th: 7 (4 + 3)
7th: 7 (4 + 3)
8th: 6 (4 + 2)
9th: 6 (4 + 2)

To compare, a lv.20 sorcerer with 40 Cha would have:

1st: 10 (6 + 4)
2nd: 10 (6 + 4)
3rd: 10 (6 + 4)
4th: 9 (6 + 3)
5th: 9 (6 + 3)
6th: 9 (6 + 3)
7th: 7 (4 + 3)
8th: 8 (6 + 2)
9th: 8 (6 + 2)

Of course, it would be absurd to allow spellcasters be able to cast only as much spells as this per each shrine. It would make them useless. Period. So, here comes the second part of The Solution (tm) .



Part 2: The Spell Slots regenerate!
Each Spell Slot regenerates at rate 1 per each (spell level - 1)^2 seconds. This makes it 1st level spells regenerate Spell Slots instantly, so this logic should be completely disabled for all 1st level spells (perhaps disable it for lv.2 spells too, as 1 second can be pretty much ignored because of the global cooldown anyway). Then, for each spell level, the regeneration would look as follows:

Lv.1: disabled you can cast as many as you want, until you're out of sp
Lv.2: 1 second 1 second is nothing, so perhaps disable it too
Lv.3: 4 seconds
Lv.4: 9 seconds
Lv.5: 16 seconds
Lv.6: 25 seconds
Lv.7: 36 seconds
Lv.8: 49 seconds
Lv.9: 64 seconds

Part 3: End result
So, having in mind that 1st level spells have this logic disabled for them, a 20th level, 40 Int Wizard would be able to cast:

Lv.1: as many as you want
Lv.2: 8 max., 1 second regen rate pretty much as many as you want too
Lv.3: 8 max., 4 seconds regen rate still pretty much as many as you want too
Lv.4: 7 max., 9 seconds regen rate you may notice sometimes that you ran out of slots, and have to wait a bit
Lv.5: 7 max., 16 seconds regen rate enough to be able to cast one lv.5 DoT like Eladar or Niac and the slot should regenerate once you recast it
Lv.6: 7 max., 25 seconds regen rate now, this is getting slow...
Lv.7: 7 max., 36 seconds regen rate oh, do you want to spam FoD? well, be careful, or you won't be able to cast that Disco Ball!
Lv.8: 6 max., 49 seconds regen rate forget about spamming Cold Ray, better use it on something you really have to
Lv.9: 6 max., 64 seconds regen rate spam your lv.9 spells, and you will have to wait a looong time to be able to do it again

You may have noticed that something like that was already done with Leap of Faith and Dance of Wind, which have a limit of uses, regenerating over time, and still cost sp to use. Well, this is pretty much where this idea came from all along. Since those have it, why not spells? Obviously, the code for it exists, so Spell Slots can be implemented in the game.

In the end, the time required for slots to regenerate can be modified. Perhaps even allow us to have gear that improves the regen rate, but never drops it below 1 second? Add enhancements or feats that lower it? Give us gear that allows gives spellcasters more spell slots, or gear that makes their casting stat higher for the purpose of how many spell slots they have?



Implications and changes to other aspects of the game
This change should apply to all characters that can cast spells or use infusions! This isn't restricted only to arcane spellcasters (Wizards and Sorcerers). This also applies to divine spellcasters (Clerics, Druids, Favoured Souls) and classes that are not classified as spellcasters in the game, but can cast spells, or "spells" (Artificers, Bards, Paladins and Rangers). This is because of consistency (if some spellcasters are getting it, everyone who can cast spells should too) and to prevent imbalance issues if a new spell is to be added to anyone, and spamming it would make it overpowered (I prefer to react before the issue arises, not after ).
However, as the cooldowns stay the same for all classes, Paladins and Rangers won't have to wait long for any of their Spell Slots to regenerate (and waiting 9 seconds to get back a 4th level Spell Slot isn't long), so their power shouldn't be affected at all.

This change is supposed to limit the careless spell spamming of some spells, without giving any sort of blanket immunities, massively limiting affecting only certain *coughcough Pale Masters coughcough* play options. With those changes in place, some mobs, and possibly all high level raid bosses may need a reduction of hp, and not by a mere 5% or 10% (I really don't have a clue by how much, though; I was thinking about something like 25% or 50%, but the numbers are completely made-up, and may be either not enough, or too much). That is, because, let's face it, without Mass Heal spam, many, if not all high-level raids, may end up being impossible to find healers for. Also lv.5 DoTs will require more careful casting (no more arcanes using 2 DoTs at once against raid bosses, otherwise those will drain the lv.5 Spell Slots very quickly). The after-U9 balance adjustments were specificallly made because suddenly spellcasters, both arcane and divine, were given powerful tools (lv.5 DoTs) that made some raids too easy, so I think some of that stuff could be dropped if this stuff gets implemented.

Anyway, to sum up any implications that this change would have on the game:

• No more spamming of the same, high-level spell.
• Every spellcaster, from a casual first timer, to an overgeared, multi-TR, has to watch the spells they cast (just like it was in PnP!). The best geared spellcasters would certainly require less, but would require it nonetheless.
• Since Spell-Like Abilities don't use Spell Slots, and they can be cast a many times you want, this makes them even more important.
• This fixes the lv.5 Wonder DoTs problem - when you cast more than one of them at a time, your Spell Slots per Rest will be depleted, and you won't be able to cast them anymore until they regenerate. If you cast only one of them, however, you may be able to regenerate the Spell Slot in time to recast the DoT.
• NO MORE QUICKENED RECONSTRUCT SPAM HAHAHAHA.
• This change affects all classes that can cast spells - some a bit, but those that can cast high-level spells are affected more. However, I think that the slot regen rate on lv.4 spells isn't that big to affect Paladin's or Ranger's power, it only makes them a bit more careful when using those.
• Artificers using Deadly Weapons on whole raid party would have to wait to be able to do so, or do it on the run. Bards will be slower at casting too, they would need to use their lower level spells more ofthen now.
• This does not affect non-spellcaster power, except of course of how much they will be healed and buffed. The power of their own abilities is unaffected.

Changes that may be needed along with the Spell Slot per Rest system:

• With those changes, it may be necessary to lower the raid bosses hp, especially the high-level ones. Otherwise, the healers won't be willing to heal those anymore. They will adjust if the encounters won't last as long, but not if they will NEED to drink sp pots on every run (and by that I don't mean need to learn to save sp...).
• If lowered boss hp, those stand and spank the Big Bad Dumbass while the healers are running out of sp like a broken dam loosing water boss battles won't last as long, and it may actually make life easier for healers, despite adding limitations on spells amount they can cast.
• Because the Heal spell won't be as spammable as it was before those changes, its cost can be changed back to what was before U9: 30 sp (or perhaps lowered even more?).
• Consider lowering the sp cost of the Quicken feat. Even if they can be used for Quickened Reconstruct, Quickened Heal, or Quickened Mass Heal, those won't be as spammable as before. If one will try to spam them, then bye bye other lv.6 spells (or lv.9 spells in case of Mass Heal).
• Consider making the cooldowns of all spells unified again (for example: Wail of Banshee would have the same cooldown as Mass Hold Monster again). They were modified because there was no other thing limiting spellcasters from spamming the most powerful spells, so I think that this can be reversed back now.
• Consider adding gear and feats that improve the amount of spells that can be cast. I'm pretty sure PnP had something like that. Perhaps even some of the gear already in the game could have this effect. This is, of course, if you, devs, want us to chase after those, so we can hope to mindlessly spam spells again...

A way to avoid some implications of the change
The hp lowering may be not enough, or perhaps, not necessary at all. Consider adding an additional, class-specific feat that allows classes with spontaneous spellcasting ability to retain spells that they cast spontanously. This would be:

• Clerics: 50% chance to retain a spell slot when cast Cure and Heal spells Clerics are still best at healing
• Druids: 50% chance to retain a spell slot when cast Summon Nature's Ally Druids are best at summoning
• Artificers: 50% chance to retain a spell slot when cast Repair and Reconstruct infusions Artificers can spam repair infusions on self and others
• Bards: 20% chance to retain a spell slot when cast any of their spells, and an extra +10% per each spellsinger tier (yay, a Spellslinger buff! sort of ) Bards retain some of their spells, and Spellsingers are best at that than other Bards
• Sorcerers: 20% chance to retain a spell slot when cast any of their spells, and an extra +10% per each savant tier when casting their savant line spells Sorcerers can still nuke freely when it comes to their element of choice
• Favoured Souls: 20% chance to retain a spell slot when cast any of their spells while not as good at healing as Clerics, they need to worry less when casting all other spells

The numbers are completely made up, and may require tweaking.



Afterword
Well, I won't try to neglect it, because, compared to what spellcasters are already, yes, it is a nerf. No more spamming of higher level spells. You will have to use lower level spells inbetween those, whether you like it or not.

And in case any of you wondered, yes, I play spellcasters. I have two: a Wizard (Conjuration Archmage, not a Pale Master, I hate those; SO DON'T SAY THAT I'M TRYING TO SAVE MY PM, BECAUSE I'M NOT ), and a Sorcerer (Air Savant). I love spellcasters most of all, and the Sorcerer is my favorite character. I know this change will hit me, especially my Air Savant, on which I spam Mass Hold Monster like no tomorrow. With this, not any longer. Now, if I would want to CC, I would be forced to use lower level spells once my lv. 9 spell limit runs out (and would need consider taking Mass Hold Person too, if I REALLY want to make use that +50% damage against helpless mobs often). I would be also needing to rethink if it's better to keep Energy Drain (which I would have to cast less, or I will have no Mass Hold Monster very quickly), or to have Ennervate (and cast it pretty much as much as I want, but needing to cast it 2 times to get an equivalent of Energy Drain). Other people would have to rethink their strategies too.

But let's also face it - spellcasters will be still God Incarnates! Pale Masters would be still as useful in all content as they are, same as for all other spellcasters trying to insta-kill. There won't be any Wail of Banshee every 15 seconds, or anyhing like that anymore, though, but it won't make us spellcasters worthless. It doesn't make any playstyle or spell useless, unlike blanket insta-kill immunity or overinflated hp that were present in epics before U9. It only brings back limitations that were in PnP, and weren't added to DDO (since in that time, the devs probably didn't realize that someday insta-kills will be added, which, with the spellpoint system, caused a disaster). Still, if it is for the better, or will it get implemented, it is not for me to decide, but this PnP maniac at least wanted to bring up an idea that he thinks is more or less in-line with the core 3.5 D&D ruleset.

[Scraap]

Likely not going to happen, but since we are effectively talking turning slots into cooldowns, and they've shown they've the tech for it, might as well account for metas as well (via cooldown, not slot per-se, unless they do wanna go oldschool). It's one of the other side effects of the system. Snag heighten, and everything's a 9th level spell.

[Tid12]

And then, add a total number of swing a melee can do (8 swing then it will regenerate 1 per minute) and we are set...


..to leave!


Is this even serious?

So instead of not-casting Necro spells for a -set amount of time here- your suggestion is to not cast anything at all?

I'll make a summary of your solution if you haven't figured it out: No more spellcasters. No more healers, no more anything, bye DDO.

Do you understand this is a MMORPG and not PnP D&D? People trying to re-work an online MMO similar to a pen and paper game makes me really laugh.


Sorry, I couldn't resist to reply. Im outta here before the flame starts!



And the laughs!

[Sgt_Hart]

Initial thoughts:

Interesting idea.
Do-able, but requires massive revision to existing content/quests (Think VoD in light of user per level + recharge timer +50% retention chance. 3 divine minimum to complete normal?) which would probably be way more than they want to do now.
That said, it has potential, and is a novel way to reduce a characters individual effectiveness, while still making a group effective.

Downside, is it will push for more "required roles" in a group. I.E. We have tank, arcane, DPS, and heals.. Do we want a Rogue(2nd DPS and support), a bard(Support, minor DPS), an Arti(Bard on steroids without songs), or a second of an existing role?
Result: Pugging becomes both less viable, and harder, obscure/odd/flavor builds become less permitted outside of known cliques.

May edit in, after the mind digests the idea some more.

[FranOhmsford]

And then, add a total number of swing a melee can do (8 swing then it will regenerate 1 per minute) and we are set...


..to leave!


Is this even serious?

So instead of not-casting Necro spells for a -set amount of time here- your suggestion is to not cast anything at all?

I'll make a summary of your solution if you haven't figured it out: No more spellcasters. No more healers, no more anything, bye DDO.

Do you understand this is a MMORPG and not PnP D&D? People trying to re-work an online MMO similar to a pen and paper game makes me really laugh.


Sorry, I couldn't resist to reply. Im outta here before the flame starts!



And the laughs!

So he/she comes up with a highly detailed suggestion - One I'll freely admit to having skimmed and can see would need some work.

And you ask if he's serious?

Really?

Having skimmed the OPs post I'm seeing a lot of stuff I rather like actually.
Now maybe I missed something that would invalidate it BUT it's a suggestion - Nothing saying that the devs would implement it as is {even if they considered it which I doubt they will}.



As for the question about Heighten - I'd assume that as a metamagic FEAT it would not impact on the base level of the spell for the OPs regen timer {otherwise the entire suggestion would have to be thrown out the window OR Heighten itself would be rendered obsolete}.


I do believe the OPs regen timers to be off - I'd have no timer for Spells of Lvls 1-3, 5 seconds for Lvl 4, 10 for Lvl 5 {this would allow for stacking of DoTs}, 20 for Lvl 6, 30 for Lvl 7, 45 for Lvl 8 and 60 for Lvl 9.

I'd also disable timers for Buffs and Heals - Putting them simply on Offensive spells {Not incl Healing Undead}.

The only problem I foresee to be honest is that single target buffing an entire raid party would be impossible - But this could be a good thing too {i.e. Paladins {Elemental Resist} and Rangers {FoM} would be given a small boost in being able to get into said Raid}.

[Scraap]

As for the question about Heighten - I'd assume that as a metamagic FEAT it would not impact on the base level of the spell for the OPs regen timer {otherwise the entire suggestion would have to be thrown out the window OR Heighten itself would be rendered obsolete}.

Well, the OP intends to replicate the choices made for spell lists over a table. Part of the cost of a metamagic feat, aside from prestiges in arcane splatbooks (no pun intended), is taking up a higher level featslot. Effectively making you choose if you want to be able to cast 1 more spell of X per time (voluntarily turning yourself into a 1 trick pony), or another of Y, and the choice is pretty much mutually exclusive.

[taurean430]

I've proposed something similar myself in the past. Although I do believe your idea is much more refined than mine, it may not be well received.

The problem with this type of adaptation appears to be many faceted, it affects gear just designed as well as long standing. It affects divines in a way that will ultimately free them up quite a bit. However those who have built to take on party healing slots will likely find themselves heavily disaffected. Now consider for a minute that most of the melee complainers that post thread after thread demanding nerfs to casters want:

1. 'Healers' to only heal them.
2. 'Casters' to only buff them.
3. No competition in the killing role by specialists.

This is where things become highly problematic. The problem with Hard to kill was that it encouraged kill stealing. The problem with Haunted is that it's punitive punishment for using your class abilities. None of these players want 'Healers' affected past getting rid of their instakill and blade barrier abilities. They would likely have another tantrum should Earthquake and Storm of Vengeance make it into the divine spell list as it should.

While I agree with you in that the problem lies in both how DDO design constructs encounters (vulnerable mobs with no fort or gear that protects them/blanket immunities), and the top percentile of players piloting a divine or arcane build (multi tr's with gear and build knowledge), what you suggest will likely cause a mass exodus from the game.

The problems we are experiencing are player problems, not mechanic problems. Some players cannot seem to position themselves to play well with others. It's evidenced over and over again that whatever the class/class ability is that gives a situational advantage will be sought after and overused by part of the population. I believe we are having these problems not because wail/cod/finger/implosion/destruction/etc... are flawed concepts of D&D design. We are having these problems because the double frenzied barb of yesterday is the instakilling spammer of today.

[Zakharov]

I applaud your effort to bring us back to something closer to pnp but it just won't work for many reasons:

- All quests would need to be redesigned to account for casters contributing much less over the same period, at the very least we would need more shrines per quest

- All creatures hp would need to be toned down, not just bosses

- All casters would probably just quit outright


Basically the entire game would pretty much need to be rewritten from scratch, this time much more closely following 3.5 ruleset (or preferably pathfinder) in all aspects of the game, not just spellcasting. I would actually love such a change, but I think we are in the minority here. Ah well, we can dream!

[Dreamshifter]

I would actually love such a change, but I think we are in the minority here. Ah well, we can dream!

Personally, I'd be fine with it as well, if that had been the direction DDO went. At this point? It's about 7 years too late. It would require recoding everything. Enemy HP, Casters (which includes everything except Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues, I believe), damage (both incoming and outgoing)...

It might work for DDO 2, if such a game could be made, or the new Pathfinder Online (though that one is really headed in a different direction). But for here and now, it just isn't a realistic option.

[Ziindarax]

Applaudable, but considering we can make an unlimited number of attacks per round with melee/ranged characters, this change would simply make the melee's king, as even with regenerating spell slots, the caster wouldn't be worth taking. Just pop a silver-flame potion and wait off the penalties.

To make this change worthwhile (and "fair" so as to not discourage playing certain classes), the melee/ranged characters would have to have their attacks reduced to a number of attacks per turn as determined by their BAB (Base Attack Bonus). This might have worked in the 90's, or for Turn-based single-player games (and in-fact, does to a degree), but in an MMO like this that decided to utilize fast-paced combat to keep things interesting, it would simply fail.

[sephiroth1084]

I like the idea, but don't know if it can work in the game as it exists now, with the pace of our combats, encounters per "day", melee attack speed and damage, and item system.

If this had been the core mechanic for DDO at its inception, I think we'd have a much more balanced game. Now...I don't think we'll ever see this kind of revision.

[enteriiblackwater]

TLDR

Ent

[Ungood]

We all realize that casters running around spamming spells was never PnP like in any sense of the word, each spell a caster used in a day was an important investment, however, with the usage of a very MMO style system: Spell Points AKA: "Mana" in most other games, (typically associated with a Blue Bar, imagine that) Turbine pretty much made casters able to spam spells, which from that second on, slated the game in their favor, and required from the onset blanket immunities to the most powerful spells to even hint at any semblance to balancing the game.

The idea proposed in the OP is actually something they should have put in from the very beginning as opposed to the SP idea they have now. It would have truly balanced out the power ranges of casters and melee builds, that MMO's in general suffer from , DDO being no exception to that rule.

A minor consideration. 3.5 rules put in an ability for Clerics (and only Clerics) that allowed them to cast cure spells at will, that would need to be addressed in this system, similar to the FvS capstone that allows for Free casting of CLW spell.

However, since shifting the system to a balanced system would do nothing but enrage the already peeved masses it seems, and given how they have changed AC to be very MMO-ish, as well, this idea while brilliant, is just simply several years too late.

Maybe an idea for "DDO2. We finally got it Right"

[Masadique]

This idea makes me happy on the inside. I am really joyous with this. This will also never happen..

V