New DODGE levels

[BTIGER]

"A general rule with the new formula is that every doubling of Armor Class pretty much doubles your mitigation. A character with 30 Armor Class will be hit approximately half as often by a specific monster as one with a 15 Armor Class, and one with a 60 Armor Class will be hit approximately one quarter as often as the 15 Armor Class character."
-Eladrin

***FORMULA REVISED*** as I did the math.

If Armor class doubled = Mitigation doubled (from what I will translate into as Miss chance doubled), a theoretical 50% dodge would also double your AC.

MEANING, your dodge % x 2 is added to your AC for your effective AC
(Eg. 10% dodge is +20% more AC than the number showing as your AC)

In LAYMAN TERMS: Double your dodge%, converted to points (instead of %) + your AC = your effective AC
AC 30 + 10% dodge = Effectively the same as an AC 50

Math shows that: +/- 1% depending on rounding rules..
25 AC vs 28 atk bonus = 77% chance of getting hit
25 AC + 12% dodge vs 28 atk bonus = 68% hit chance
30 AC (or 24% higher AC) vs 28 atk bonus = 64% hit chance

70 AC vs 50 Atk Bonus = 43% chance of getting hit
70 AC + 20% dodge vs 50 atk bonus = 34% chance of getting hit
98 AC (or 40% higher AC) vs 28 atk bonus = 31% chance of getting hit

However:
25 AC + 50% dodge vs 28 atk bonus = 38.5% hit chance
50 Ac (or 100% higher AC) vs 28 Atk Bonus = 38.5% hit chance

70 AC + 50% dodge vs 50 atk bonus = 22% hit chance
140 AC (or 100% higher AC) vs 50 atk bonus = 22% hit chance

So my formula is a bit off (but my original theory is correct) but here you can see the power of dodge in increasing your effective AC for those that can.
Anyway if anyone wants to post examples of how high dodge can go now please do. (/thanks Leloric)

Time to play!

[MsEricka]

Dodge bonuses are capped by your max dexterity bonus.

Also in regards to what Eladrin said, that example is specific to a single creature. It won't work that way for every mob in the game due to differing to-hit bonuses.

[LeLoric]

I think your top dodge bonus character will possibly be a rog shadowdancer with some ftr levels possibly for feats or maybe a return of the 13 rog 6 ranger 1 ftr builds.

6% rogue
3% dodge feat
7% untouchable
6% in the weeds twisted
3% unearthly reflexes twisted
3% grandmaster of flowers dodge twisted
4% dodge ring in new content
2% mobility
2% spring attack
3% bracers of wind lev 16
1% bracers of wind lev 16 crafted effect
2% mabar cloak

42% full time dodge

this setup also provides 20% blurry and 10% incorp to where you would be taking 41.76% of the normal dmg, factor in some ac which it should be decent on and a little bit of prr and you vcould probably push an 80% total mitigation dodge based character.

Possibly more dodge if they implement stacking like bonuses of dodge but that is no longer in release notes so possibly was rethought.

[Shade]

I think your top dodge bonus character will possibly be a rog shadowdancer with some ftr levels possibly for feats or maybe a return of the 13 rog 6 ranger 1 ftr builds.

6% rogue
3% dodge feat
7% untouchable
6% in the weeds twisted
3% unearthly reflexes twisted
3% grandmaster of flowers dodge twisted
4% dodge ring in new content
2% mobility
2% spring attack
3% bracers of wind lev 16
1% bracers of wind lev 16 crafted effect
2% mabar cloak

42% full time dodge

this setup also provides 20% blurry and 10% incorp to where you would be taking 41.76% of the normal dmg, factor in some ac which it should be decent on and a little bit of prr and you vcould probably push an 80% total mitigation dodge based character.

Possibly more dodge if they implement stacking like bonuses of dodge but that is no longer in release notes so possibly was rethought.

wow.. thats a lot of dodge. Though thats also a pretty gimpy char (pure rogue with a bunch of junk feats).

I think they need to be pretty careful with that, else best tank will end up the robe wearers yet again.

[wax_on_wax_off]

wow.. thats a lot of dodge. Though thats also a pretty gimpy char (pure rogue with a bunch of junk feats).

I think they need to be pretty careful with that, else best tank will end up the robe wearers yet again.

Well, best case scenario up there with a bunch of twists from various epic destinies results in a total mitigation of 80% ... but stalwart/dos builds can get to similar values, where's the issue?

[Stillwaters]

wow.. thats a lot of dodge. Though thats also a pretty gimpy char (pure rogue with a bunch of junk feats).

I think they need to be pretty careful with that, else best tank will end up the robe wearers yet again.

As much as i love my rogue.. they make out like bandits in this new system where they

graze (read as sneak attack) on a 2+
have dodge boost to 60% 1/4 of time (30 sec with 2min cooldown)
also have highest passive dodge available

Its a pity about the "hard to kill" nerf to assassinate, but the damage will still pour on, and the defenses went WAY up.

Oh, and barbarians do too, though they now get feat taxed for 11 cleaves every 15 seconds
3(cleave) 3(greatcleave) 5(supreme cleave)

[Shade]

Well, best case scenario up there with a bunch of twists from various epic destinies results in a total mitigation of 80% ... but stalwart/dos builds can get to similar values, where's the issue?

The issue is building content to actaully challenge tanks with a mitigation of 80%, will result in content that one-shots everyone else.

EG: Boss hits for 1000, = 200 a hit. Assume moderate attack speed of 1 hit per 2 seconds. Thats easily healable for even poor healers on a decent hp tank.

1000 damage vs everyone else? 1 shot.

And EG: It wont ever happen because everyone else would complain.

End result: All content is utterly trivial for tanks. Not fun.

The maximum mitigation should never reach 80%. More sane RPGs hard cap it in the 50-70% range, and dont leave the squishy robe wearers at 0% like ddo does.

DDO shouldnt go above 50% since the squishies WILL be at 0%. (Tis where my sorc sits, the idea that AC works for everyone is utter nonsense, he got hit 95% in everything he ran, even normal difficulty.)

[Ape_Man]

Possibly more dodge if they implement stacking like bonuses of dodge but that is no longer in release notes so possibly was rethought.

Can we get a dev to clarify this? Will like modifiers stack or not?

Devoting all your twists to dodge is . . . what shade said. Getting that 40% dodge would be like the 110 AC 6-STR haflfings we have now, fringe builds that can't hurt a fly and should be taken out of the equation.

[LeLoric]

Can we get a dev to clarify this? Will like modifiers stack or not?

Devoting all your twists to dodge is . . . what shade said. Getting that 40% dodge would be like the 110 AC 6-STR haflfings we have now, fringe builds that can't hurt a fly and should be taken out of the equation.

I think you underestimate the capabilites here. 13 rog 6 ranger 1 ftr builds still do strong dps if not top of the line. The setup I showed would get 40% in this setup (missing 2% from higher rog levels). It does take three pieces of gear but the new 4% ring is extremely strong dps wise. Mabar cloak gives aqdditional benefits in dr and incorp bonus and the bracers give 20% blurry for more love.

Thers nothing that wouldn't allow this to be a full mid to high 40's strength build. 6 ranger splash on shadow dancer is a big plus getting the 10% offhand attacks to have an extra 6d6 sneak attack dmg.

Sure using all three twists is harsh but theyve taken away most of the other good dmg twists for a twf. You could easily drop two and still have a 30% dodge percentage.

[Ape_Man]

I think you underestimate the capabilites here. 13 rog 6 ranger 1 ftr builds still do strong dps if not top of the line. The setup I showed would get 40% in this setup (missing 2% from higher rog levels). It does take three pieces of gear but the new 4% ring is extremely strong dps wise. Mabar cloak gives aqdditional benefits in dr and incorp bonus and the bracers give 20% blurry for more love.

Thers nothing that wouldn't allow this to be a full mid to high 40's strength build. 6 ranger splash on shadow dancer is a big plus getting the 10% offhand attacks to have an extra 6d6 sneak attack dmg.

Sure using all three twists is harsh but theyve taken away most of the other good dmg twists for a twf. You could easily drop two and still have a 30% dodge percentage.

And give them WoP rapiers.

I think you found the new "Exploiter."

[BTIGER]

Dodge bonuses are capped by your max dexterity bonus.

Also in regards to what Eladrin said, that example is specific to a single creature. It won't work that way for every mob in the game due to differing to-hit bonuses.

I know all this..and of course I meant towards the same creature.
I don't know why my formula is off (diminishing returns?) but it still holds true at 50% but lessens in strength the lower dodge goes.

[Blank_Zero]

And give them WoP rapiers.

I think you found the new "Exploiter."

I think I found a reason to TR again lol.

[maddong]

Why not barbarian instead of rogue?

Elf 18 Barb/2 Fighter
2 dragonmarks
3 dodge feats
PA
Cleave
IC slash
Stunning blow or Imp sunder

[LeLoric]

Why not barbarian instead of rogue?

Barb could theoretically hit this too but only if they were a shadow dancer for the untouchable effect as it's untwistable. I doubt many barbs will be running as a shadowdancer. Barb doesn't splash as well with ranger either and most likely wouldnt have feats as an 18 barb 2 ftr type.

[maddmatt70]

I think your top dodge bonus character will possibly be a rog shadowdancer with some ftr levels possibly for feats or maybe a return of the 13 rog 6 ranger 1 ftr builds.

6% rogue
3% dodge feat
7% untouchable
6% in the weeds twisted
3% unearthly reflexes twisted
3% grandmaster of flowers dodge twisted
4% dodge ring in new content
2% mobility
2% spring attack
3% bracers of wind lev 16
1% bracers of wind lev 16 crafted effect
2% mabar cloak

42% full time dodge

this setup also provides 20% blurry and 10% incorp to where you would be taking 41.76% of the normal dmg, factor in some ac which it should be decent on and a little bit of prr and you vcould probably push an 80% total mitigation dodge based character.

Possibly more dodge if they implement stacking like bonuses of dodge but that is no longer in release notes so possibly was rethought.

The ac and bit of prr which you do not highlight here also brings the total dps this character does down. This character will have trouble maintaining aggro and not be as high dps a character as you put forth. The fighter and paladin will be able to much more easily maintain aggro for tanking purposes.

[LeLoric]

The ac and bit of prr which you do not highlight here also brings the total dps this character does down. This character will have trouble maintaining aggro and not be as high dps a character as you put forth. The fighter and paladin will be able to much more easily maintain aggro for tanking purposes.

I never claimed a tank here just a defensively minded melee with higher than average dps. Why would something with 15d6 die of sneak attack dmg want to be a tank? That said I never noted what that ac and prr come from but more than likely I wouldnt necessarily do anythoing more than just natural gearing etc it wouldnt be a dps loss here.

Now if you wanna talk dodge tanks my 18 ftr/2 rog will be able to hit 32% dodge 140 ac and 50ish prr. Add the 10% incorp and the mitigation gets really big. 50's reflex save reduces a lot of spell dmg that pure builds cant get either.

[BTIGER]

Also want to add that if your not a numbers a person and you just want an easy way to figure out how much effectiveness your dodge is working then:

In LAYMAN TERMS: Double your dodge%, converted to points (instead of %) + your AC = your effective AC
AC 30 + 10% dodge = Effectively the same as an AC 50

[Deaths_ward]

Was twiddling with a 13/6/1 (Rogue/Fighter/Monk) because I wanted to do something goofy on a TR.....depending on how they work Dodge into the DEX/WIS to ac, if at all....this could get stupid with Shadow Dancer.

[voodoogroves]

Was twiddling with a 13/6/1 (Rogue/Fighter/Monk) because I wanted to do something goofy on a TR.....depending on how they work Dodge into the DEX/WIS to ac, if at all....this could get stupid with Shadow Dancer.

Mine is 6 monk for Shadow Fade; ymmv