Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[FlimsyFirewood]

In case it hasn't been mentioned, the escort part of the raid could have played a role in why Displacement was changed to self only.

Absolutely not.

[Drwaz99]

That ship has sailed, came back, sailed again, got raided by pirates, became a pirate ship, got cursed to chase after the Flying Dutchman for three centuries, got exorcised to fight in the American Civil War (as part of the Union blockade), then got modernized to fight in both World Wars, participated in the D-Day landing and is a decommissioned museum/restaurant now in Key West, Florida.

You say you aren't looking for validation here, which is good. Please don't let pride get in the way of possible painful yet important decisions.

[Shade]

Sink the ship. Start over.

The abbot raid was the last raid with this amount of bad PR early on. It wasted countless dev hours due to the badly thought out mechanics it employed. Sometimes an idea is so bad that it will require more work then doing everything over to make it work well. This is one of those cases.

um what...

Pretty much everyone i knew actually really enjoyed the initial version of the abbot, as it the puzzles were then optional. It was just a straight up very challenging brute force battle, something we really wanted.

It never got much bad PR until they forced the puzzles upon us. Rather different from this.

And your suggestion is impossible. The release is in 12 days, they promised a raid and charged 50 bucks, they are delivering a raid. It may not be one you like, but its coming, theres no way they have time to write up a whole new one in 12 days.

I think it has potential to be fun. It's really all the little things that can or break DDO raids in terms of making them fun.

Just need the right amount of challenge, fun combat and loot. It can have all these things.. At least for 11 of the 12 players there, u only gota sucker one person into playing the boring babysitting role heh.

Just don't forget the uber weapons and +5 tomes flimsy, and we will run it no matter what it is

[Rizzyn]

My biggest complaint as a rogue is that the spell wards 9 times outta 10 are "BLOCKED" by absolutely nothing. It is like a sad game of ring around the rosie running around the **** spell wards trying to "click" on the right spot to initiate the disable bar. The runes cannot be tabbed which makes this all the more frustrating. The issue is further compound by two things, one being the leg and the other the rate that they spawn.

THIS.

This is not only the case in the Raid, but in many of the quests. Many of the Spell Wards cannot be disabled because they are always blocked, or worse, positions so poorly -- as in over levers -- that the system can't differentiate between the two. I think they're a fine idea, but...put them on the floor, on a wall, make them "not ghostly" or whatever it is they are now. Perhaps change the Ward to be what it is in my head, a glyph on the floor or wall. This way its solid as a trap box and hopefully won't be blocked. Heck, you did a minefield already, this would be a similar solution...though I think its been said that that forest of glyphs was an error.

[Eladiun]

Having lost my motivation to test I haven't run the raid so I can't speak to it directly. However, I find it an odd choice to build the centerpiece of the new Expansion around the most hated quest format in all of MMO history. Escort missions are universally despised. Escort mission where you cannot heal the NPC are the devil.

What has happened to raid design in DDO?

There are some extremely fun and challenging raids in this game. The most recent raids do not fit in this category.

[Eladiun]

um what...

Pretty much everyone i knew actually really enjoyed the initial version of the abbot, as it the puzzles were then optional. It was just a straight up very challenging brute force battle, something we really wanted.

It never got much bad PR until they forced the puzzles upon us. Rather different from this.

The bugged versions you had to cheat to complete or the numerous times it was just flat out closed.

[Shade]

Having lost my motivation to test I haven't run the raid so I can't speak to it directly. However, I find it an odd choice to build the centerpiece of the new Expansion around the most hated quest format in all of MMO history. Escort missions are universally despised. Escort mission where you cannot heal the NPC are the devil.

What has happened to raid design in DDO?

There are some extremely fun and challenging raids in this game. The most recent raids do not fit in this category.

You sound so sure, yet haven't played it.

The previous 2 raids were not escourt missions at all, and Lord of Blades I think was very challenging, fun and overall sucessfull.

It gets run less these days, but I think thats more so a factor of a mistake in the loot desgn then anything..

which btw, could you maybe fix that Flimsy, Torc or other dev?

EG: Put +4/5 tomes in Epic Elite MA/LoB so the older players who have there alchemicals will actaully run them again.

[Shade]

The bugged versions you had to cheat to complete or the numerous times it was just flat out closed.

Thats just untrue. (and against the forum rules to accuse me of such things)

I absolutely never "cheated" at abbot ever. We always beat it 100% legit in the guild I was in at the time (The Free Companions). I was aware of the various exploits, but we never used a single one.

The puzzles were simply optional, no cheats were neccesary to win, it was a fun raid. Who are you to say otherwise what we experienced. You sound as if you never even completed that version legitly.

It was also never "flat out closed" in those days. It was playable for a couple weeks, then patched to a new version which no one ever completed.

[Charononus]

disregarding abbot, there is a lot of bad pr on this raid and I can see it turning into the new titan/abbot.

[Shade]

the new titan/abbot.

I'd actaully love a new titan. (Raid so hard it actaully seemed unbeatable, and took several weeks of effort to complete).

Many players do enjoy a challenge like that.

[Eladiun]

The previous 2 raids were not escourt missions at all, and Lord of Blades I think was very challenging, fun and overall sucessfull.

Honestly, the stand in a circle beat down one or two bosses raid design; VoD, Hound, Abbot, LoB, MA , DQ, Reaver (I'll leave off VoN and Titan because of the Pre-Raids). Is played out. While the LoB himself is rather cool the quest mechanics are the Abbot and the Titan having dirty monkey love and giving birth to the LoB. Recycled. Boring. Been there.

Shroud while utterly played to death at this point was creative and interesting mixing different mechanics. ToD running a gauntlet of three boss fights each with a twist was new and fun. Tempest Spine back when the cap was 10-12 was a challenge and fun to run. Heck, it may no longer be a challenge on super twinked TR's but it's still a fun run. The first time anyone saw Velah on VoN 6 when the cap was 12 create a sense of awe. The Titan pre-raid with the splits and puzzles was a group challenge.

Smacking a giant training dummy filled with HP while standing in a little circle isn't fun. Constantly, relegating casters to kiting isn't fun unless you love running in circles. Want to make LoB interesting? Make one Dog chain cast Dispel and the other cast something similar to chains. Now that would be a challenge.

Heck, if they juiced up Into the Deep that would make a more interesting raid than anything they released in the last two years.

So, maybe this is the greatest escort mission in history and not Coyle on steroids. I could be jumping the gun but you can't sell me that an escort mission is creative and fun. It isn't groundbreaking or trend setting. We aren't going to look back and say boy they really set the bar with that escort mission.

So my point stands, what happened to raid design?

[Cyr]

It was also never "flat out closed" in those days. It was playable for a couple weeks, then patched to a new version which no one ever completed.

The very original version I thought was fun too. You could power through it, but it was tough.

The bad PR early on for Abbot occured because it was being heavily exploited, then closed (yeah it was closed for a bit), then broken, then broken differently...for years.

The whole point being that Abbot did indeed get bad PR early on, but not nearly as early on as this raid.

[Eladiun]

Thats just untrue. (and against the forum rules to accuse me of such things)

I absolutely never "cheated" at abbot ever. We always beat it 100% legit in the guild I was in at the time (The Free Companions). I was aware of the various exploits, but we never used a single one.

The puzzles were simply optional, no cheats were neccesary to win, it was a fun raid. Who are you to say otherwise what we experienced. You sound as if you never even completed that version legitly.

It was also never "flat out closed" in those days. It was playable for a couple weeks, then patched to a new version which no one ever completed.

Sorry, it wasn't meant as an accusation. By you I meant everyone or we, because there were points were the raid was flat out broke and unbeatable any other method.

[Cyr]

I'd actaully love a new titan. (Raid so hard it actaully seemed unbeatable, and took several weeks of effort to complete).

Many players do enjoy a challenge like that.

Titan was so hard because it was buggy as could be. I spent hours in that quest at a time trying to get him to not get stuck. It was not so much hard as annoying.

That was not fun. It was more like punishment for being OCD.

[EliahuTheMighty]

disregarding abbot, there is a lot of bad pr on this raid and I can see it turning into the new titan/abbot.

I'd take Abbot out of there. I don't know what server you're on, but on Khyber, we have Abbot groups up regularly. Granted, it's not a huge percentage of population that runs it, but there's plenty of us that do, and on a regular basis.

In terms of this raid, Flimsy, any idea if the 'Blocked from disable' issue on these traps will be fixed by the time this hits live? I don't play Lammania, and didn't play beta, but I like to know what I'll be facing when the expansion comes out.

[Eladiun]

I'd actaully love a new titan. (Raid so hard it actaully seemed unbeatable, and took several weeks of effort to complete).

Many players do enjoy a challenge like that.

Agreed. Accept for the bugginess of the Titan himself which could amount to hours of wasted effort if he decided to glich or the fact that this again was a raid that for months kept getting shut down.

As I said I always found the pre-raid to be a well designed challenge for a full party at level at the time.

I feel the same about VoN5 and at level on Elite that is still an organ grinder.

[Charononus]

I'd actaully love a new titan. (Raid so hard it actaully seemed unbeatable, and took several weeks of effort to complete).

Many players do enjoy a challenge like that.

The problem imo about this is the a challenge to kill something is good, a challenge to manipulate the games broken ai to keep it's health up so that you can get a decent chance at loot is bad. I just don't see this as a good type of challenge I see it as a frustrating type of challenge.

While I do not like escort quests in general the only way I can see this quest being ok is if the mechanic of more loot for more npc life is removed as that just screams bad idea to me. Overall though I would rather see the escort mechanic dropped the raid redesigned and not available till 14.2 or something along those lines, as I see a centerpeice raid with this much bad pr being only bad to the game and limiting it's growth with new players.

[Charononus]

I'd take Abbot out of there. I don't know what server you're on, but on Khyber, we have Abbot groups up regularly. Granted, it's not a huge percentage of population that runs it, but there's plenty of us that do, and on a regular basis.

In terms of this raid, Flimsy, any idea if the 'Blocked from disable' issue on these traps will be fixed by the time this hits live? I don't play Lammania, and didn't play beta, but I like to know what I'll be facing when the expansion comes out.

Oh there are abbot groups up on thelanis it's just the frustration level on abbot I was refering to as how many times have you heard people swearing about bugged chests, reward lists, and invisible asteroids. It's pretty common here.

[Shade]

Recycled. Boring. Been there.

Disagree but it leads to my point below..

I'd be happy with the same style raids as the past with just new monsters, new special attacks, new challenges and new loot any day.

So my point stands, what happened to raid design?

After making 15 raids, theres not exactly a lot of new styles of raids for them to try. You said your bored of the other styles they were doing, well what do you expect? They are trying something new.

I imagine it's players feedback form players exactly like yourself that encouraged this. They did everything else at this point, theres 15 raids in the game.. You keep saying the other stuff is "boring" or "un-original" ... So this is what we get - something new. There are no other escort mission raids, so they wanted to try somthing new to appease players like yourself.

Personally I'd be happy if they just stuck to the same old style.. My favourite was the Dragon/Titan style of a pre raid with some puzzle sand stuff, followed up by a straight up boss encounter. I also like the option of running the pre raid on low setting to get thru it quick, then maxing out the difficulty for the big boss fight.

But others like yourself ask for something new, this is what we get.

[Malshier]

At least for 11 of the 12 players there, u only gota sucker one person into playing the boring babysitting role heh.

And this is why the raid isn't going to be fun. How many time can you sucker one person into a crappy role before they get tired of it? Then you have to find a new sucker and they have to learn the sucker's job until they get tired of it and on and on and on. Eventually you'll run out of suckers.