Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[Malshier]

Thats just untrue. (and against the forum rules to accuse me of such things)

He didn't mean you specifically but more like the general you. You as a member of the playerbase, not you explicitly as Shade. Cheese and rice man.

[Eladiun]

Disagree but it leads to my point below..

I'd be happy with the same style raids as the past with just new monsters, new special attacks, new challenges and new loot any day.


After making 15 raids, theres not exactly a lot of new styles of raids for them to try. You said your bored of the other styles they were doing, well what do you expect? They are trying something new.

I imagine it's players feedback form players exactly like yourself that encouraged this. They did everything else at this point, theres 15 raids in the game.. You keep saying the other stuff is "boring" or "un-original" ... So this is what we get - something new. There are no other escort mission raids, so they wanted to try somthing new to appease players like yourself.

Personally I'd be happy if they just stuck to the same old style.. My favourite was the Dragon/Titan style of a pre raid with some puzzle sand stuff, followed up by a straight up boss encounter. I also like the option of running the pre raid on low setting to get thru it quick, then maxing out the difficulty for the big boss fight.

But others like yourself ask for something new, this is what we get.

10 of the 15 are here is a circle stand in it and fight one boss. Creativity isn't a big leap. Making a dungeon that's a series of encounters that leads to a Main boss with some twists and maybe a puzzle isn't really asking for the heavens.

The option for an easy button...I think to get to eVON6 you should be required to complete eVoN5. Down with easy buttons.

[Eladiun]

He didn't mean you specifically but more like the general you. You as a member of the playerbase, not you explicitly as Shade. Cheese and rice man.

Yes, but I did word it poorly. Shade gets attacked enough to be sensitive to the issue. A lot of us here are quick to jump to the conclusion that we are being attacked because text lacks tone.

[Shade]

The option for an easy button...I think to get to eVON6 you should be required to complete eVoN5. Down with easy buttons.

I'd be fine with that for EE only. And only if they actaully put some loot in von5 to make the extra time worthwhile. Say +4 tomes.

Lower difficulties are easy buttons anyways, kind of the point.

[Drwaz99]

I'd actaully love a new titan. (Raid so hard it actaully seemed unbeatable, and took several weeks of effort to complete).

Many players do enjoy a challenge like that.

Shade, and I say this with the utmost respect: You have a very skewed perception of this game.

Now that's neither right nor wrong in any sense. Just remember that the things that you and many of the people you play with see/want are vastly different than a very large portion of the players. I'm all for challenge and difficulty, but if it come with high degree's of frustration and (IMO) silly mechanics it's not fun in the long run. It's new now, so it's definitely in it's honeymoon stage. But from my playing and reading those who got further. It's just not going to be fun in a long term aspect.

[FlimsyFirewood]

Spell traps being inaccessible or "blocked" is a bug. Looking into it.

[Rizzyn]

Spell traps being inaccessible or "blocked" is a bug. Looking into it.

Excellent! Thank you.

Also, is it possible to NOT have them be activated if you approach them under stealth to Disable them? It has not been a large issue, as my Rogue's Reflex save largely handled the explosions, save for that No Save Slow effect. However, it strikes me as odd that we get the "Trap" awareness warning, search for it in advance, and sneak upon it to disarm, which I think is a very typical process, only to find that the trap is going off anyway.

This is an issue. The idea, from my perspective, is to disarm it BEFORE it can cause anyone harm. This is currently not possible. It will ALWAYS activate, even in those cases when you can disarm it.

[Cauthey]

From what I've read, it sounds like the Caught in the Web raid takes a long time to run. What are Lamannia players finding, as far as completion times?

Flimsy, what was the goal? How much time did you expect for players to spend in the raid when you designed it?

One critical thing to consider is that you're going to begin exponentially losing a willingness to play the raid for every time increment greater than an hour. Sure, there are people that have the luxury and willingness to commit to longer raid adventures. I would offer that 1 hour, or maybe even 1.5 hours is not necessarily asking too much of a raiding player. But anything much beyond that, players are going to decide that the raid/loot is not worth that much solid time parked in the chair.

Yes, there will also be the more hardcore players that will be willing to hang in there for 3 hours and then maybe succeed or maybe fail. But, those players are not representitive of the majority of the playerbase.

[patang01]

You sound so sure, yet haven't played it.

The previous 2 raids were not escourt missions at all, and Lord of Blades I think was very challenging, fun and overall sucessfull.

It gets run less these days, but I think thats more so a factor of a mistake in the loot desgn then anything..

which btw, could you maybe fix that Flimsy, Torc or other dev?

EG: Put +4/5 tomes in Epic Elite MA/LoB so the older players who have there alchemicals will actaully run them again.

I think the biggest reasons people don't run it other then say the loot/construct mechanism is that it's in a wilderness after you have to run a pre-raid wilderness. Lots of running making the overall quest time a huge time commitment for what is a fairly short affair.

The raid might be challenging and fun, but the way there is a pain.

[Eladiun]

I also think with the current state of the game engine and server/client lag. The idea of completing but not getting a raid chest...ugg. Something goes sideways thru no fault of the party, you recover but poof bye bye raid loot. How many players will we see dropping group if her health reaches the magic break under point? It'll be worse than the Shroud. Let the drama commence.

Also, if you don't get a Raid chest you shouldn't go on timer. I hope that's also how it works.

[Gimpinator]

From what I've read, it sounds like the Caught in the Web raid takes a long time to run. What are Lamannia players finding, as far as completion times?

Flimsy, what was the goal? How much time did you expect for players to spend in the raid when you designed it?

One critical thing to consider is that you're going to begin exponentially losing a willingness to play the raid for every time increment greater than an hour. Sure, there are people that have the luxury and willingness to commit to longer raid adventures. I would offer that 1 hour, or maybe even 1.5 hours is not necessarily asking too much of a raiding player. But anything much beyond that, players are going to decide that the raid/loot is not worth that much solid time parked in the chair.

Yes, there will also be the more hardcore players that will be willing to hang in there for 3 hours and then maybe succeed or maybe fail. But, those players are not representitive of the majority of the playerbase.

Well if we need to activate all the orbs for lewt, we're probably looking at an hour-long raid at best, mainly because of the layout variations. The island rocks are static but the web-bridges vary just like the explorer area. For quick completions, an individual may scout the entire map, even risking temporary red alert, and find the path(s) to the end. While there may be multiple paths to the end (not true for all instances), webbed bridges can be destroyed by Lolth as you cross them, making it an even more daunting task to find the correct path.

The raid is essentially a changing maze and encounters don't necessarily spawn until Ana is within range.

EDIT: As if getting to the end isn't hard enough, you have an incredibly small window to get through a door if you want to complete. Not everyone, including Ana, will make it through. In our first run, we killed every single waved spawn and never noticed the door open. After some time of having nothing to kill and no idea how to complete, the entire dungeon respawned.

[Schmoe]

I don't think it's strictly a mistake to provide increased loot opportunities with increased performance. If you look at a lot of other raids in other games, there are progressing stages to the adventure, each with progressing loot. One key point is that as long as you meet some minimum threshold, you should get some raid loot.

I also don't think that an escort quest is inherently a bad idea, but it starts off with a strike against it, and the implementation is critical. For one thing, people don't like it when it feels like they have no control over the outcome of a quest. When you add in an AI element that you need to protect, you're introducing an uncontrollable element. When you remove the possibility of healing Ana, you are only exacerbating the issue. What if players could heal Ana, and instead of artifacts healing Ana, breaking each artifact added a significant buff that makes later stages easier? Players feel like they have more control over Ana, but have the option of making their lives easier with additional buffs.

All-or-nothing is another element that people tend to dislike. It's a common element with escort quests, and when the quest is a very long one it is especially troubling. From what I can tell, you have to finish the entire raid before getting loot, and you don't get any feedback on how much loot you're going to get until the very end. This means that an entire 30 minutes+ of flawless performance can be ruined by just a minute of chaos at the end. Or if the raid gets off to a poor start, there is little incentive to continue.

Long raids that are successful generally have stages where rewards are provided intermittently. Tempest Spine and Shroud are both long raids, but there are chests with named loot (or ingredients) along the way to the end.

What if the escort of Ana had several stages bounded by "safe havens", or "progress points", and the goal was to get from one to the next? At each point the party's performance was measured to determine the reward for that stage, but the next stage started fresh? Combined with the above suggestion about optionals providing lasting buffs (that last the entire raid), you would have a raid where players have more control over the escortee, they get staged rewards, poor performance on a stage is possible but doesn't ruin the entire experience, and the players have control over how much easier they want to make the final stage.

Just some thoughts. I'd like to see the raid be fun and successful, and I'm sure there are options to make it so even within the existing parameters of a long escort raid.

[Ape_Man]

I heard the new Amrath raid will involved escorting Harry out of the devil-area of Savarath. Should be tons of fun!

I kid, I kid. We should at least TRY the raid before we slam it, but I do have to say the feedback I'm seeing from the people who have tried it leaves me with that "not so fresh" feeling.

[Eladiun]

When you add in an AI element that you need to protect, you're introducing an uncontrollable element.

Especially when NPC AI in this game is so terribad.

NPC: "Ouch I'm getting burned"
PLAYER "Get out of the firewall"
NPC: "My health is getting low, help."
PLAYER: "MOVE."
Ding!

[Gimpinator]

It's my understanding that Ana CAN'T die. The 10+ hours I've spent inside this raid, letting Ana be trashed upon, is a testimony to this, however, activating Orbs gives her Hit Points that can be reduced to zero. These Hit Points are used as a resource to have Ana summon a rest shrine for the party. This is the only way to get rest shrines. (Is this close, Filmsy?)

Additionally, activating an Orb may cause the annoying hand to spawn. Falling off the edge may also cause it to spawn, but we had trouble eliminating both variables in a recent run. We blame the Favored Soul.

[SableShadow]

What if, instead of healing Ana, breaking each artifact added a significant buff that makes later stages easier? Players feel like they have more control over Ana, but have the option of making their lives easier with additional buffs.

All-or-nothing is another element that people tend to dislike.

Long raids that are successful generally have stages where rewards are provided intermittently. Tempest Spine and Shroud are both long raids, but there are chests with named loot (or ingredients) along the way to the end.

What if the escort of Ana had several stages bounded by "safe havens", or "progress points", and the goal was to get from one to the next? At each point the party's performance was measured to determine the reward for that stage, but the next stage started fresh?

Lotta really sweet ideas in here.

[Eladiun]

It's my understanding that Ana CAN'T die. The 10+ hours I've spent inside this raid, letting Ana be trashed upon, is a testimony to this, however, activating Orbs gives her Hit Points that can be reduced to zero. These Hit Points are used as a resource to have Ana summon a rest shrine for the party. This is the only way to get rest shrines. (Is this close, Filmsy?)

Additionally, activating an Orb may cause the annoying hand to spawn. Falling off the edge may also cause it to spawn, but we had trouble eliminating both variables in a recent run. We blame the Favored Soul.

Her dying or not dying is irrelevant if the mechanic that spawns the raid chest is the amount of HP she has.

[Eladiun]

I don't think it's strictly a mistake to provide increased loot opportunities with increased performance. If you look at a lot of other raids in other games, there are progressing stages to the adventure, each with progressing loot. One key point is that as long as you meet some minimum threshold, you should get some raid loot.

I also don't think that an escort quest is inherently a bad idea, but it starts off with a strike against it, and the implementation is critical. For one thing, people don't like it when it feels like they have no control over the outcome of a quest. When you add in an AI element that you need to protect, you're introducing an uncontrollable element. When you remove the possibility of healing Ana, you are only exacerbating the issue. What if players could heal Ana, and instead of artifacts healing Ana, breaking each artifact added a significant buff that makes later stages easier? Players feel like they have more control over Ana, but have the option of making their lives easier with additional buffs.

All-or-nothing is another element that people tend to dislike. It's a common element with escort quests, and when the quest is a very long one it is especially troubling. From what I can tell, you have to finish the entire raid before getting loot, and you don't get any feedback on how much loot you're going to get until the very end. This means that an entire 30 minutes+ of flawless performance can be ruined by just a minute of chaos at the end. Or if the raid gets off to a poor start, there is little incentive to continue.

Long raids that are successful generally have stages where rewards are provided intermittently. Tempest Spine and Shroud are both long raids, but there are chests with named loot (or ingredients) along the way to the end.

What if the escort of Ana had several stages bounded by "safe havens", or "progress points", and the goal was to get from one to the next? At each point the party's performance was measured to determine the reward for that stage, but the next stage started fresh? Combined with the above suggestion about optionals providing lasting buffs (that last the entire raid), you would have a raid where players have more control over the escortee, they get staged rewards, poor performance on a stage is possible but doesn't ruin the entire experience, and the players have control over how much easier they want to make the final stage.

Just some thoughts. I'd like to see the raid be fun and successful, and I'm sure there are options to make it so even within the existing parameters of a long escort raid.

Good Stuff Schmoe.

[Gimpinator]

Her dying or not dying is irrelevant if the mechanic that spawns the raid chest is the amount of HP she has.

I believe it's completing the optional and not the amount of HP she has. Both may not even be true.

[Avidus]

I believe it's completing the optional and not the amount of HP she has. Both may not even be true.

Flimsy already gave the info out.

SPOILER WARNING

Ana has a hint in her dialog at the end of the raid that explains how to get more treasure out of it. I know, I know, I should've been more obvious. It's too subtle.

It's based on her remaining health.

The idea is that the fact of raid completion is not as important as group performance. It's supposed to give you a stretch goal.