Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[LeoLionxxx]

Will +5 stat tomes be making an appearence amoung the high level raid loot?

[Nick_RC]

This & we can and will triumph. But I had previously said this back... some 4 or 5 pages of whining.



I Think it could be fun and to all the nigh Sayers out there who haven't even gone into the raid... No Loot for You!

Yeah at the end of that 6 hour stretch dealing with bugs I was really frustrated. Having had a coupla days to think over it I am really looking forward to gettign back in there. Even if ana is a dumbass. At least its a change of pace. Knowing that this is going forward no matter what AND given what flimsy has said regarding the changes to ana and her eyebeams I think the main thing I would personally change would be the optional fights. They are all exact replicas of each other. Quite boring. I would rather one be as is, another option would be spawns of red/orange name minions, or a puzzle etc etc.

N

Still cautiously optimistic about it.

[Arkat]

Well then we're all good.

Who is this "we" you are referring to?

[redspecter23]

Will +5 stat tomes be making an appearence amoung the high level raid loot?

I was under the impression that high + tomes were no longer under consideration for raid loot. The last time we saw them was epic VoN if I remember correctly. They have been absent from every raid since then. I expect to see +3 tomes in standard loot tables, but +4 and +5 are probably being phased out of loot tables in order for them to be placed in the DDO store eventually without breaking the "we don't sell raid loot" rule.

[Eladiun]

Good in theory, bad in practice. Why waste a completion on 1 chest? Many people will know when they aren't going to get all the chests, die, release and reform. Nice group dynamic in the works.

So, true. We saw this for years in the Shroud. No, shard opps mysterious DC followed by a character swap. This mechanic will all but guarantee the raid is guild and channel only.

On the bright side, it should create some interesting rage threads and keep Tolero and Cordovan busy.

[Arkat]

On the bright side, it should create some interesting rage threads and keep Tolero and Cordovan busy.

Don't forget the IWxxxxxxxxx mods. I'm sure they'll be exercising their "powers" often as well.

[DeadRabbat]

This mechanic will all but guarantee the raid is guild and channel only.

On the bright side, it should create some interesting rage threads and keep Tolero and Cordovan busy.

I so hope this doesn't happen. Many of us enjoy the game but have small guilds that are friends (who seldom come on) And really don't want to leave said guild.
I have yet to complete my alchemicals (even tier 1) because most of the raids are guild runs. But then again. Guilds can do tactics and directions better then pug's. I really don't want to be left out more yet i don't want to abandoned a guild I have been working (slowly) on.

[Charononus]

I so hope this doesn't happen. Many of us enjoy the game but have small guilds that are friends (who seldom come on) And really don't want to leave said guild.
I have yet to complete my alchemicals (even tier 1) because most of the raids are guild runs. But then again. Guilds can do tactics and directions better then pug's. I really don't want to be left out more yet i don't want to abandoned a guild I have been working (slowly) on.

As a suggestion you might want to see if there are any channels that you can join that some of the bigger raiding guilds use on your server to recruit members for guild runs that are short a person or two. Hope that helps a little bit.

[Eladiun]

I so hope this doesn't happen. Many of us enjoy the game but have small guilds that are friends (who seldom come on) And really don't want to leave said guild.
I have yet to complete my alchemicals (even tier 1) because most of the raids are guild runs. But then again. Guilds can do tactics and directions better then pug's. I really don't want to be left out more yet i don't want to abandoned a guild I have been working (slowly) on.

If reward is tied not to completion but to quality of completion, then as I and others have said people WILL drop mid raid rather than complete. The ultimate result of that scenario is people only running the raid with people they trust or who can/will be held accountable.

The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

I know this player base and have seen this before I don't need a Magic 8-Ball to predict the outcome.

[Charononus]

If reward is tied not to completion but to quality of completion, then as I and others have said people WILL drop mid raid rather than complete. The ultimate result of that scenario is people only running the raid with people they trust or who can/will be held accountable.

The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

I know this player base and have seen this before I don't need a Magic 8-Ball to predict the outcome.

I don't think it's "this player base" but more general human nature. But yes the results are going to be predictable.

[Eladiun]

I don't think it's "this player base" but more general human nature. But yes the results are going to be predictable.

Probably True.

[DeadRabbat]

Anyway, the end fights can be dealt with fast when destiny's are used.

Exalted Angel; Judgement, Judge the Many. Grandmaster of Flowers; Everything is Nothing. Even the red names will be severely damaged if not dead after that combo (rinse repeat on second platform). Now granted this is on normal. I do not believe anyone has seen hard or elite yet.
Figuring out the right tactics will become second nature & only the random variables will be menacing. Sadly, I don't like the idea..but yes. This will become guild raided with the occasional "fill up" pug.

[Gimpinator]

Yeah at the end of that 6 hour stretch dealing with bugs I was really frustrated. Having had a coupla days to think over it I am really looking forward to gettign back in there. Even if ana is a dumbass. At least its a change of pace. Knowing that this is going forward no matter what AND given what flimsy has said regarding the changes to ana and her eyebeams I think the main thing I would personally change would be the optional fights. They are all exact replicas of each other. Quite boring. I would rather one be as is, another option would be spawns of red/orange name minions, or a puzzle etc etc.

N

Still cautiously optimistic about it.

This is how I feel but the raid may still be very frustrating. If loot is 95% complete **** like the last set of raids, it won't see much play time.

[sirgog]

Escort quests suck.

Raid loot dependent on escorted NPC's health also sucks.

Put them both together and it's a recipe for suck squared.

On to slightly more constructive thoughts. Is it or is it not common knowledge in the dev world that players don't like escort quests? If it is common knowledge, then why design a raid with an escort and tie your chance of raid loot into the health of that particular npc? This quest is getting massive negative feelings from the players with regard to the escort mechanic involved. Is this mechanic absolutely necessary in this quest or can it be retooled so it doesn't make me feel like just not playing it at all? Anything that even remotely reminds any player of Coyle in any way should be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the dev team can sticky that on a wall in the office somewhere for future reference.

It's not escort quests that are unpopular in DDO (except for one that is really badly done).

The most hated quests in the game are overwhelmingly ones focused on non-combat puzzles. Tomb of the Tormented, The Pit, Titan preraid, etc. (Add Coal Chamber as mazes are basically puzzles). So if they wanted to make a raid based on the most hated mechanic ever, they'd have made another Stormreaver or Titan preraid.

Another mechanic that's unpopular but hasn't got the whine brigade out is mobs using hostages against us - like in Faithful Departed, Let Sleeping Dust Lie, and some other places. There's a new quest based around this mechanic, yet surprisingly the whine brigade isn't up in arms - because the quest is well done.

And the third mechanic that comes to mind that's less popular than escort missions is forced long delays. Eye of the Titan, Tower of Despair cutscene, the Litany ambush, etc.

Escort quests where the escortee is a badass are much more popular than those mechanics. Thinking of Waterworks 2, Last Stand, Ritual Sacrifice and many others. If Ana can tank the whole instance for ten minutes, well she's a lot tougher than even the Last Stand NPC on Epic. I for one am looking forward to trying a series of different strategies to get this one downpat.



That said - raid loot linked to failable extra objectives will cause major drama as groups will fall apart mid-raid if Ana takes certain amounts of damage. I think you should rethink this - consolidate raid loot into the main chest and/or relatively easy optionals, then add a 'good stuff' chest for the harder optionals which drops unbound good items. (Things you might consider - a chest that drops weapons that are always metal-typed; a chest that drops accessories that always have large or medium guild slots; etc).

[redspecter23]

It's not escort quests that are unpopular in DDO (except for one that is really badly done).

The most hated quests in the game are overwhelmingly ones focused on non-combat puzzles. Tomb of the Tormented, The Pit, Titan preraid, etc. (Add Coal Chamber as mazes are basically puzzles). So if they wanted to make a raid based on the most hated mechanic ever, they'd have made another Stormreaver or Titan preraid.

Another mechanic that's unpopular but hasn't got the whine brigade out is mobs using hostages against us - like in Faithful Departed, Let Sleeping Dust Lie, and some other places. There's a new quest based around this mechanic, yet surprisingly the whine brigade isn't up in arms - because the quest is well done.

And the third mechanic that comes to mind that's less popular than escort missions is forced long delays. Eye of the Titan, Tower of Despair cutscene, the Litany ambush, etc.

Escort quests where the escortee is a badass are much more popular than those mechanics. Thinking of Waterworks 2, Last Stand, Ritual Sacrifice and many others. If Ana can tank the whole instance for ten minutes, well she's a lot tougher than even the Last Stand NPC on Epic. I for one am looking forward to trying a series of different strategies to get this one downpat.



That said - raid loot linked to failable extra objectives will cause major drama as groups will fall apart mid-raid if Ana takes certain amounts of damage. I think you should rethink this - consolidate raid loot into the main chest and/or relatively easy optionals, then add a 'good stuff' chest for the harder optionals which drops unbound good items. (Things you might consider - a chest that drops weapons that are always metal-typed; a chest that drops accessories that always have large or medium guild slots; etc).

I suppose my statement wasn't completely accurate. When I referred to escort quests I was bundling them all up together. The spiders, the Binders, the Coyles, the undead, the rats, that Last Stand dude, the dwarves in Threnal, hirelings in general, noobs, pugs, noob pugs and that buttkicker in Ritual Sacrifice. Babysitting anyone or anything ranks way above puzzles and such on my "do not do" list, but that's just me.

When I fail, I want to blame myself... or maybe the healer or some tangible party member or at least some guildie that's online even if he's not in my party. I do not want to fail because of cruddy poor AI on someone that has the common sense of a mad gerbil.

[Auran82]

That said - raid loot linked to failable extra objectives will cause major drama as groups will fall apart mid-raid if Ana takes certain amounts of damage. I think you should rethink this - consolidate raid loot into the main chest and/or relatively easy optionals, then add a 'good stuff' chest for the harder optionals which drops unbound good items. (Things you might consider - a chest that drops weapons that are always metal-typed; a chest that drops accessories that always have large or medium guild slots; etc).

If anything, the primary objective chest should have the highest chance to drop raid look, the 2 optional chests should have slightly lower chances.

From what is being said, it sounds as though the primary objective chest has a low chance of dropping raid loot and the optional ones are the ones you want.

Otherwise, why would they say that 4 completions with no raid loot dropping is what they would expect with us not completing the optional (and the hidden optional regarding her health)

We don't want 100% drop rates for raid loot, but I can't be the only one sick of running raids and seeing nothing drop, sure it probably all balances out with other chests dropping 5 things, but for me and my group? It sucks.

[Cauthey]

Call me Crazy, here, but - how much nerdrage could we sidestep with this raid if the raid timer was set based on the amount of optional success, and thus directly by the number of chests provided by optional success?

Lets say you complete, no optional coverage at all. 1 raid loot chest. Raid timer is set for 1 day.

Then, lets say you complete, but it's not a perfect completion. Partial success! 2 raid loot chests. Raid timer is set for 2 days.

The next time, you've got a tight crew, and you have the method down. Full optional success! 3 raid loot chests. Full raid timer is set for 3 days.


Of course, I don't know what percentage of what success gets what number of chests. But, you can play with the math in the scenerio above to fit the existing mechanics.

Would a solution like this sidestep nerdrage enough to keep the raid party cohesive through to completion? Is shorting the timers depending on raid success something that Devs would be willing to budge on?

If done this way (or to some varying degree), you're better equalizing the "let me try again" ratio to the actual loot payout.

Of course, short timers means more runs, which would in turn change the dynamics with a 20th raid completion reward. That part I've not worked out yet.

[darthhento]

Hey, here's an idea to make this raid fun!

Make Anna killable by players and drop a soulstone. And make her able to take True Ressurection at end of the quest.

[Schwarzie]

Hand-crafted named items that appear only in this raid. I apologize if that was not clear, that is the usual meaning of "raid loot", and is certainly what I refer to when I use those words. They can appear in all of the chests. Thus, more chests = more chances at raid loot.

Will this loot be done with more common sense then some of the old raidloot pieces? The old Raids often have some very good loot, some mediocre and some plain trash. Since its already a endless grind to get an Raid Item and a even more endless grind to get the right[tm] one its always a huge downer to get one of the Trahs items. ITs sometimes even preferable for my blood pressure to get no item instead of a piece of garbadge.

[Terebinthia]

I don't know if this has already been covered, if so my apologies, but PLEASE make sure there's a mechanism to get raiders to the start of the raid relatively quickly, such as the TOD mechanic, particularly as it sounds from current feedback that this raid is likely to be loooooong, particularly for PUGs.

I rarely if ever join a Lord of Blades or a MA because of the length of time clearing out the explorer areas and so on - can't spare the hour and a half it often takes in PUGs, not counting time to fill. I suspect from the lack of LFMs on Khyber that many other people feel the same way. I feel you will have a more popular proposition if you have a mechanic to get people there quickly.