Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Nines9]

I have tested it. You can choose whether or not to believe me or to keep casting worthless spells your choice but I do have a pretty good reputation and track record on these kinds of matters. I have no desire to go get screenshots to prove to you something I already know, you seem to already know how to check it. I was just trying to let you know you are wasting time and sp casting symbol of pain to lower saves.

And your evidence of proof is a wiki? I guess I need to give you another bit of helpful advice you probably will never listen to. Don't take wiki's for fact.

Either you haven't actually tested it, your testing method was flawed, or it only works via other players, but it does give a -4 to all saves. Either the description for the spell is incorrect, or the spell isn't working properly.

[LeLoric]

Either you haven't actually tested it, your testing method was flawed, or it only works via other players, but it does give a -4 to all saves. Either the description for the spell is incorrect, or the spell isn't working properly.

My testing I will admit was a while ago and it could have possibly have been changed since last november the last time I messed with it. Although no release notes ever mentioned a change (not that it wouldn't be the first time). My testing was also done versus mobs not players and effects often affect each differently. I can say with 99.9% statistical certainty that last november symbol of pain was not lowering mob saves.

[tinyelvis]

Keep Instakills they way they are...

Un-nerf Vorpal, Smiting, Banishing and Disruption weapons back to the way they were...

That way melee can get their instakills too.


Now fix ranged combat and finsh the PREs...

Oh and introduce Gnomes for crying out loud.

I keep pointing this out in other threads but it really goes in one melee's ear and out another. If you allow vorpal weapons then people only carry one type of weapon. Instead of one or two guys whining about vorpal not working your have hundreds on the forums whining about lack of weapon variability.

However, items like the epic ring of stalker should be able to apply insta kill to weapons. I personally dont see a problem to this, and unless the developers just have hard rule against allowing melee in on the insta kill game then honestly they should permit items like this to pass on insta kill abilities.

The one issue that gets whined about most deals with insta kills. Insta kill envy is obviously at the heart of this problem, and in essence kill count envy. Why not give them their insta kills. Anything to stop the din of moans and whines. I know it wont completely stop there. The next whine will be mass insta kills or AOE elemental damage. But at least when the designers plan on nerfing insta kills, then everyone will have a stake.

[Ungood]

I keep pointing this out in other threads but it really goes in one melee's ear and out another. If you allow vorpal weapons then people only carry one type of weapon. Instead of one or two guys whining about vorpal not working your have hundreds on the forums whining about lack of weapon variability.

I would point out the ridiculous irony of that when I have just read two topics that have spanned near 1500 Posts, whining about 1 spell and only 1 spell being "nerfed".

But I fear it would, as you put it, go in one ear and out the other.

[katz]

...but it does give a -4 to all saves. Either the description for the spell is incorrect, or the spell isn't working properly.

took this screenshot today. saw the debuff, thought of this thread, hit 'screenshot' before the debuff expired.

[alexp80]

took this screenshot today. saw the debuff, thought of this thread, hit 'screenshot' before the debuff expired.

OFF TOPIC: which UI are you using?

[darkovac]

I'm quite a noob (haven't played on epic levels yet, but all the fuss about this nerfing drew my attention) and my idea is probably dumb but I'll share it anywhere...

Wouldn't it be good that AI mob just get random non-named equipment depending on class and quest level. So there is like 50% chance that AI caster will have deathblock robe on some levels and just 1% that melee will have deathblock armor. It might add some additional randomness to some quests...

Maybe this is already a case but I just don't know it and I guess I'm not first that got with this idea but it was discarded because it is ********... If so please ignore, I had to share idea just in case...

[Azre]

My testing I will admit was a while ago and it could have possibly have been changed since last november the last time I messed with it. Although no release notes ever mentioned a change (not that it wouldn't be the first time). My testing was also done versus mobs not players and effects often affect each differently. I can say with 99.9% statistical certainty that last november symbol of pain was not lowering mob saves.

Yea DDO sometimes changes spells and doesn't even tell us about it. I didn't even knew it lowered saves until recently always thought it just lowered skill checks.

My favorite way to test it, if you don't like to try it vs other players, or having cast on you by mobs, or if you believe the casting description on the creature information box is wrong.

Is against undead.

Go to VoN 5, place a symbol down and kite the necrotic things through it, then use undeath to death (will save). You'll find that it lands on a significant larger number of mobs than when you use undeath to death alone without any debuff.

Try it over and over, it's how I farm VoN scrolls.

I've came to like that spell a lot specially since it helps vs undead, who for some unknown reason have high will saves, but rather low fort saves.

And no, I don't take wiki for a fact, but DDOwiki has been a fairly reliable source of information for the game, actually thinking about it, never found a mistake on it that wasn't quickly fixed.

[Ertay]

Try it over and over, it's how I farm VoN scrolls.

I've came to like that spell a lot specially since it helps vs undead, who for some unknown reason have high will saves, but rather low fort saves.

per d&d undead are supposed to have no con score, and thus have a very low fort save in general. I don't know how well this holds true in ddo though.

[Azre]

per d&d undead are supposed to have no con score, and thus have a very low fort save in general. I don't know how well this holds true in ddo though.

Aah... that explains it. Their will save however is abnormally high (maybe this is WAI aswell?), particularly on mummies and even skelletons.
With a same dc (even higher in some cases) that you wouldn't have any trouble casting enchant spells on epic mobs, epic undead makes you work a little bit more, mainly referring to the undeath-to-death spell.

[Rodasch]

Aah... that explains it. Their will save however is abnormally high (maybe this is WAI aswell?), particularly on mummies and even skelletons.
With a same dc (even higher in some cases) that you wouldn't have any trouble casting enchant spells on epic mobs, epic undead makes you work a little bit more, mainly referring to the undeath-to-death spell.

Just want to point out some interesting undead traits from PnP: Read the underlined, bolded parts carefully.

An undead creature has the following features.

• 12-sided Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard).
• Good Will saves.
• Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• No Constitution score.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
• Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
• Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
• Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
• Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
• Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
• Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
• Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

[taurean430]

Aah... that explains it. Their will save however is abnormally high (maybe this is WAI aswell?), particularly on mummies and even skelletons.
With a same dc (even higher in some cases) that you wouldn't have any trouble casting enchant spells on epic mobs, epic undead makes you work a little bit more, mainly referring to the undeath-to-death spell.

I'm not sure if this is accurate; but I *think* that was changed about the time symbol of persuasion and charms were nerfed. Command undead and such suffered a similar fate. Seems the dev team doesn't like the idea of us having mobs as helpers

Also glad to see some posted proof on symbol of pain. Personally, I love that spell for setting up killzones. Been questioned about my use of it many times.

[Azre]

Just want to point out some interesting undead traits from

Awesome post, thanks for the info!.

Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

That's so cool. I want to true-ressurect skellies now!.

[salmag]

I keep pointing this out in other threads but it really goes in one melee's ear and out another. If you allow vorpal weapons then people only carry one type of weapon. Instead of one or two guys whining about vorpal not working your have hundreds on the forums whining about lack of weapon variability.

However, items like the epic ring of stalker should be able to apply insta kill to weapons. I personally dont see a problem to this, and unless the developers just have hard rule against allowing melee in on the insta kill game then honestly they should permit items like this to pass on insta kill abilities.

The one issue that gets whined about most deals with insta kills. Insta kill envy is obviously at the heart of this problem, and in essence kill count envy. Why not give them their insta kills. Anything to stop the din of moans and whines. I know it wont completely stop there. The next whine will be mass insta kills or AOE elemental damage. But at least when the designers plan on nerfing insta kills, then everyone will have a stake.

It doesn't even have to be a current item in existence. Make Bloodstone-like trinkets (extremely hard to find - evil in nature, therefore needs to be cleansed (hence, questing/grinding for the item, questing/grinding for the ingredients to clean)) that applies a vorpal chance to any weapon wielded, range included.

Heck, make it level 18 or better, and tie the item into a Raid.

By the way, I thought that the object of ALL quests in this game (besides being fun ) were to make it through the quest. I, personally, don't care who gets the kill, as long as we succeed.

[katz]

OFF TOPIC: which UI are you using?

Blackbird.

i love it

[MRMechMan]

I can say with 99.9% statistical certainty that last november symbol of pain was not lowering mob saves.

Oh? You tested it 1000+ times? Spent 8 1/2 hours doing nothing but casting symbol every time it was off timer, testing saves and then recording the results?

Quite the statistician over here, guys.

[Eillyss]

(...)
The average pale master in our server can hardly wail an epic rat, (...)

My gimpy wiz can handle rats! :P

[Dolphious]

Oh? You tested it 1000+ times? Spent 8 1/2 hours doing nothing but casting symbol every time it was off timer, testing saves and then recording the results?

Quite the statistician over here, guys.

Uh... you realize you don't need an n of 1000 to get 99.9% statistical certainty right?

[Eillyss]

OFF TOPIC: which UI are you using?

Its the BlackBird UI

Edit: too slow reading stuffs :P

[heavenandhell]

Just bring back epic ward. Play it like it used to be. Melee and support and healing vs I am pale - pls worship me.