Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Boneshank]

What do you think Pale Masters are?. Do you even play one?.

Give me one example on any decent epic (where mobs don't have heart conditions, like house P or LoD), where a pale master literally wipes everything with a single wail.

That's even assuming everything is gathered up to begin with, which in the process of doing so gives the FvS more than enough time to land all his implosion ticks.

The problem isn't pale masters, it is introducing mobs with almost no fort saves whatsoever.

I strongly suggest you try epic Sands on a pale master, and letting me know how much that fictional overpowered wail kills in a single cast.

One example? eDA. A wave spawns & instantly clusters onto group.
I cast wail and nearly everything dies. Melees clean up a straggler or two, though if I wanted, I could quickly finger & PK them to boost my killcount ego. But that would be silly & sp intensive. I'm happy to share.

Second example? VoN 1/2/5 Group up, cast wail, and nearly everything dies. Pick off a straggler or two with finger/PK and cast UtD for the zombies.

Third example? eChrono. Wail. Death. CC orange names for party. Pick off a straggler or two with finger/PK.

You spoke of Sands? Does eDQ1 qualify? If so, Wail, death. Pick off -- I'm sure I'm repeating myself here...
I haven't done eChains in a long time, to be honest, so I just may suck in there. Same for eWizKing.
But for eOoB, of course SR is the biggest hurdle there, but my latest incarnation has my SPen higher & I see on average half the groups drop.

It's not as daunting as its made out to be.
The biggest hurdle to get there, for me, was getting my PM hardy enough to take the beatings inflicted while I do my thing.
But that's a discussion completely separate from Wail.

[Emili]

One example? eDA. A wave spawns & instantly clusters onto group.
I cast wail and nearly everything dies. Melees clean up a straggler or two, though if I wanted, I could quickly finger & PK them to boost my killcount ego. But that would be silly & sp intensive. I'm happy to share.

Second example? VoN 1/2/5 Group up, cast wail, and nearly everything dies. Pick off a straggler or two with finger/PK and cast UtD for the zombies.

Third example? eChrono. Wail. Death. CC orange names for party. Pick off a straggler or two with finger/PK.

You spoke of Sands? Does eDQ1 qualify? If so, Wail, death. Pick off -- I'm sure I'm repeating myself here...
I haven't done eChains in a long time, to be honest, so I just may suck in there. Same for eWizKing.
But for eOoB, of course SR is the biggest hurdle there, but my latest incarnation has my SPen higher & I see on average half the groups drop.

It's not as daunting as its made out to be.
The biggest hurdle to get there, for me, was getting my PM hardy enough to take the beatings inflicted while I do my thing.
But that's a discussion completely separate from Wail.

I strongly suggest you try epic Sands on a pale master, and letting me know how much that fictional overpowered wail kills in a single cast.

eOOB can definately be built for, even to be half the effective party... and as such carries over into other quests.

[v.p.]

my personal evaluation of caster classes, 0 to 10 (AS LIVE, epic context)

wiz PM / WF sorc / fvs / cleric
instakill 10 7 9.5 8
nuking 7 10+ 8.5 5
cc 10 7 6.5 6.5
self heal 8 8 10 10+
healing others n/a n/a 9 10
defense/tanking 8 9 10 9

PM better on selfhealing than WF sorc, aura + negative burst > reconstruct. healing others - WF sorc and PM can heal others alike also, and PM does it better due to aura + negative burst stack from different chars, plus they both can heal WF of any kind.

[Boneshank]

eOOB can definately be built for, even to be half the effective party... and as such carries over into other quests.

Agreed.
Outside of facing epic drow, it comes as a laughable surprise now when I actually see a blue shield pop up on a mob when I cast.
But even against the epic drow (OoB, VoN3, Sentinels, and Servants) that I face in quests I play, I am happily seeing about a 50% succes rate, give or take. Of course, any little drow that doesn't resist pretty much auto-fails their fort save...

[Emili]

Agreed.
Outside of facing epic drow, it comes as a laughable surprise now when I actually see a blue shield pop up on a mob when I cast.
But even against the epic drow (OoB, VoN3, Sentinels, and Servants) that I face in quests I play, I am happily seeing about a 50% succes rate, give or take. Of course, any little drow that doesn't resist pretty much auto-fails their fort save...

Drow mob have terrible fort... you can tell they build them like a newbie player build thier first drow.

Off topic, Funny thing... many people toss elf and drow on the bottom of racial scale in build, but reality is if you plan on con and fort within them you can build an acceptably healthy character off those races... adequate con and fort save is as easily made up for as dex and reflex on other races are.

On Topic, in scope in Beta and on Lam the SR and saves on Drow of Underdark and Sshindilryn remind me of eLoD when norm epic... and Elite Overlord when you set on elite epic.

I solo'd every Sshindilryn quest on Norn. Hard, and Elite on a spell singing - melee oriented - bard, I facsinated and then Irresitable Dance (SR +Will) each and cut them down with rapiers. I did not wear my spell pen item, I was level 20 to 22 at the time and this was not a max'd out casting Cha bard (starting Cha 16.)

AND NOW! I present something NOBODY is speaking about in any of these topics. Destinies... The power of destinies is tremendous, people have been arguing back and forth based on the current game we have as is... but these new abilities and thier scope have me reconsidering everything I know now as a build - in heroic - plays very small fraction into my function at end game.

I actually am inclined to believe all these PL's we gathered are a drop in the bucket in what I can do by openning up as many destinies to full and twisting in whenever I wish what I want to completely trivialize any quest - They are that powerful, I recommend everyone open as many as they can, the scope of what they encompass covers multiple PL's and gearing tweaks we currently have in live game today.

[psi0nix]

Gee, I don't know what casters people been playing, but mine have this thing called spell points, and every spell I cast, it uses some, if I ran around in quests FoD everything I would have no mana after about 5 minutes.

Those casters that are able to do something anywhere near similar to what people describe have at least - Epic Torc / ConOp goggles / Epic bramble casters - plus many many many past lives, sorc,cleric,Fvs,multiple Wiz, and so on......

How many players out of the playerbase do you think have that ? (not that many), in fact it's much much more common for a caster to NOT have all those things and past lifes, some of us need everything we can get to stay alive and viable in Epic content.

Killcount means very little, usually it means we've have a great "kill stealing" run with SLA's, it has nothing to do with single handedly "crushing" the dungeons.


There are of course players who are skilled, know the game extremely well, and are able to maximise efficiency with whatever they are given, again they are not the "masses", they are a minority.

It seems that the entire playerbase who enjoy their casters is to be punished for a small few attaining what in reality they deserve for obtaining / crafting / upgrading / farming, multiple TR toons.

That kind of "power" is there as an incentive to "keep going" with the game, as once you have capped a few times on different classes there is not much else to the game apart from becoming "more" powerful and having better gear... take the incentives away to do this kind of thing, and well, people won't bother, and if you've completed all the content and get no benefit for TR'ing many times and farming that epic gear, again, why would many of us bother ?

We'd go looking elsewhere of course, and all this just to keep some jealous players who deem something like a kill count as important happy.

It's like rewarding children who have a tantrum that another child got something they did not, and demand it be taken away.

It has no negative impact on anothers gameplay, other than they might not get as many kills......

If you personally think they're an "easy button" then don't play one, perhaps even limit how many are in your groups - (even though many would not allow a caster to join an epic run unless they have all the "gear" and DC's that they are whinging about).

Again (and I am getting sick of saying it) - Don't ruin the game for so many because so few are able to achieve something.

And of course if it's that "easy" for you, then roll a weaker toon, make it harder for yourself, you don't "have" to have "the best" do you ?

Melee want some buff then give it to them, if the playerbase that plays melee are not enjoying their toons due to limitations then by all means give them something, but if it's purely a jealous childish type thing, then don't reward it by punishing everyone else, it sets a very bad precedent.


We ALL want to have fun playing the game, why are we not "allowed" to ?

[alexp80]

PM better on selfhealing than WF sorc, aura + negative burst > reconstruct. healing others - WF sorc and PM can heal others alike also, and PM does it better due to aura + negative burst stack from different chars, plus they both can heal WF of any kind.

PM is not better then WF at self healing. They are different in the way they do and pretty the same. Self healing with burst for a pm is really sp expensive, and should be avoided. The aura neutralize small dmg.

WF can almost istantly full up with reconstruct spells, and they can use 0 sp reconstruct scrolls.

---------

WF sorc and PM cannot heal others in any meaningful way really. They can heal now and then only specific classes. The power of the combined aura of PM is totally another matter.

[Emili]

Gee, I don't know what casters people been playing, but mine have this thing called spell points, and every spell I cast, it uses some, if I ran around in quests FoD everything I would have no mana after about 5 minutes.

Those casters that are able to do something anywhere near similar to what people describe have at least - Epic Torc / ConOp goggles / Epic bramble casters - plus many many many past lives, sorc,cleric,Fvs,multiple Wiz, and so on......

How many players out of the playerbase do you think have that ? (not that many), in fact it's much much more common for a caster to NOT have all those things and past lifes, some of us need everything we can get to stay alive and viable in Epic content.

Killcount means very little, usually it means we've have a great "kill stealing" run with SLA's, it has nothing to do with single handedly "crushing" the dungeons.


There are of course players who are skilled, know the game extremely well, and are able to maximise efficiency with whatever they are given, again they are not the "masses", they are a minority.

It seems that the entire playerbase who enjoy their casters is to be punished for a small few attaining what in reality they deserve for obtaining / crafting / upgrading / farming, multiple TR toons.

That kind of "power" is there as an incentive to "keep going" with the game, as once you have capped a few times on different classes there is not much else to the game apart from becoming "more" powerful and having better gear... take the incentives away to do this kind of thing, and well, people won't bother, and if you've completed all the content and get no benefit for TR'ing many times and farming that epic gear, again, why would many of us bother ?

We'd go looking elsewhere of course, and all this just to keep some jealous players who deem something like a kill count as important happy.

It's like rewarding children who have a tantrum that another child got something they did not, and demand it be taken away.

It has no negative impact on anothers gameplay, other than they might not get as many kills......

If you personally think they're an "easy button" then don't play one, perhaps even limit how many are in your groups - (even though many would not allow a caster to join an epic run unless they have all the "gear" and DC's that they are whinging about).

Again (and I am getting sick of saying it) - Don't ruin the game for so many because so few are able to achieve something.

And of course if it's that "easy" for you, then roll a weaker toon, make it harder for yourself, you don't "have" to have "the best" do you ?

Melee want some buff then give it to them, if the playerbase that plays melee are not enjoying their toons due to limitations then by all means give them something, but if it's purely a jealous childish type thing, then don't reward it by punishing everyone else, it sets a very bad precedent.


We ALL want to have fun playing the game, why are we not "allowed" to ?

ALL of the intermediate player base will soon have a world of gearing and building options to narrow the gaps between themselves and the die-hard player. Three to Four Ap into level 20 I can garner caster levels and attain DC's equal a current multiple life TR'd toon.

When we're looking at these "Nerfs" it is very important to examine the gains in new abilities being handed out also.

[Emili]

PM is not better then WF at self healing. They are different in the way they do and pretty the same. Self healing with burst for a pm is really sp expensive, and should be avoided. The aura neutralize small dmg.

WF can almost istantly full up with reconstruct spells, and they can use 0 sp reconstruct scrolls.

---------

WF sorc and PM cannot heal others in any meaningful way really. They can heal now and then only specific classes. The power of the combined aura of PM is totally another matter.

What's the tick (regen) of a loaded up PM's Aura? then cap off with items to DR fort absorbtions ... next thing you know you've a self-healing tank which may actually dish out heavy damage on the boss. The only class/PrE I can think of better at such off top my head is a FvS and very soon to place Druid in that grouping.

[Boneshank]

(good post)

Certainly, while soloing (or duoing with wife), storming through content via death magic is an absolute blast.
Honestly though, I enjoy my PM the most when I'm in a full group with wife & friends, doing a tough quest together.
Just because I can solo most of Quest X doesn't mean I actively try to when I'm grouped up.
I thoroughly enjoy being able to open the toolbox up to completely mix things up, as long as the group is competent (which it usually is, being mostly semi-static).
I'll Wail one room, then Disco the next, then Web & Symbol, etc while still popping off Fingers & PWK/PKs here & there.
If the players driving the melees seem a little too complacent in their voice chatter, I may occasionally 'forget' to keep CC up for an instant, but all in good fun.
I enjoy it more when the quest itself requires versatility, like eChrono, but fun is what we make it, either way.

I guess for some people, racing their divine against the arcane (or vice versa) to see who can own the killcount is their idea of fun. Fantastic, and I have no problem with that. My goals in-game differ, as I simply want to see success for the group overall. To each their own.
But to continually come on the forums & spout off about this is OP, or that is OP, is ridiculous.

I try very hard to not tell others how to play their toon, because being told is not fun.
I try very hard to not tell others, unsolicited, how to build their toon, because being told is not fun.
I certainly will never cry about other classes' power, and lobby for nerfs, because doing so impedes others' fun.

Hell, even my guild name says it -- Just a Game Playing for Fun.

As for Wail of the Banshee being OP? Of course it is. Once the work has been put in to get it that way.
I don't feel it needs nerfing, though, just like everything else in the game.
If they insist, cap the kills & move on.

[alexp80]

What's the tick (regen) of a loaded up PM's Aura? then cap off with items to DR fort absorbtions ... next thing you know you've a self-healing tank which may actually dish out heavy damage on the boss. The only class/PrE I can think of better at such off top my head is a FvS and very soon to place Druid in that grouping.

What I meant is that PM are almost immune to moderate continuoos dmg but it's really expensive for them recovering from massive dmg.

[Emili]

Certainly, while soloing (or duoing with wife), storming through content via death magic is an absolute blast.
Honestly though, I enjoy my PM the most when I'm in a full group with wife & friends, doing a tough quest together.
Just because I can solo most of Quest X doesn't mean I actively try to when I'm grouped up.
I thoroughly enjoy being able to open the toolbox up to completely mix things up, as long as the group is competent (which it usually is, being mostly semi-static).
I'll Wail one room, then Disco the next, then Web & Symbol, etc while still popping off Fingers & PWK/PKs here & there.
If the players driving the melees seem a little too complacent in their voice chatter, I may occasionally 'forget' to keep CC up for an instant, but all in good fun.
I enjoy it more when the quest itself requires versatility, like eChrono, but fun is what we make it, either way.

I guess for some people, racing their divine against the arcane (or vice versa) to see who can own the killcount is their idea of fun. Fantastic, and I have no problem with that. My goals in-game differ, as I simply want to see success for the group overall. To each their own.
But to continually come on the forums & spout off about this is OP, or that is OP, is ridiculous.

I try very hard to not tell others how to play their toon, because being told is not fun.
I try very hard to not tell others, unsolicited, how to build their toon, because being told is not fun.
I certainly will never cry about other classes' power, and lobby for nerfs, because doing so impedes others' fun.

Hell, even my guild name says it -- Just a Game Playing for Fun.

As for Wail of the Banshee being OP? Of course it is. Once the work has been put in to get it that way.
I don't feel it needs nerfing, though, just like everything else in the game.
If they insist, cap the kills & move on.

First, I will tell am not in favour of nerf to the spell... afterall I have a PM I playe and when I do so I solo her mostly.

The scope however be while you, I and the quoted player actually share... the power of the class yields so that we decide to let others have fun when we wish. It's our decision as to if we let others actually play or just drag them along throughout the quests.

This was why, when I was flagging new content after the first few pugs where I was barely in quests - on elite epic - and the blue-bars were halfway thru - some were even lifers steamrolling with new found powers - by the time I entered the door, by the time I search my way halfway in they've the boss near dead and as I reach the end they're off to the next in chain while I'm collecting my chest and recalling ... so I decided if thier going to solo in group... well best I just go solo myself.

It would not be so bad... if the commendations and many other items were not btc, then I would likely just run my blue-bars and have at it, but the scope being I want x on this ranger, and y on this bard, and z on this fighter - so I have to play them instead.

I am not for nerfs... but the new content, the new abilities and the scope of old really needs a lot of thought and balanced out so that their actually is value in being x and choosing y... be all I may say.

[Boneshank]

What I meant is that PM are almost immune to moderate continuoos dmg but it's really expensive for them recovering from massive dmg.

Absolutely.
That's why it's very important for any self-disrespecting PM to butter up the guild/group/raid/spousal cleric, promising favors and other things in exchange for timely Harms.

[Emili]

Absolutely.
That's why it's very important for any self-disrespecting PM to butter up the guild/group/raid/spousal cleric, promising favors and other things in exchange for timely Harms.

Which is no different than my anything I do for a WF AM in that respect when they're tanking... I have my recon scrolls ready or recon spell loaded in slot.

[Boneshank]

Which is no different than my anything I do for a WF AM in that respect when they're tanking... I have my recon scrolls ready or recon spell loaded in slot.

That's actually something a little different about my PM -- he's WF. Not many PMs out there who are, at least that I've seen anyway.
It's definitely handy in different place though, to have the choice of being in lich form or out, but always able to self-heal, regardless.
For example, I've tanked Suulomades in ToD & VoD with him, both in lich form with an extra cleric Harming me to augment my aura & bursts, and out of form, with an extra arcane tossing supplementary Recons on me. Either way I can be healed through the curses.

[Syllph]

Seems like the major disconnect is that mobs simply have too much HP.

I watched yesterday a pug in IQ elite bang away for close to a full minute of undisturbed combat with a single mob. He wasn't ungeared: the mob simply had that many HP. (Given he was a level 18 without his epic amazingness) As a caster I can take it out in .01 sec. I know IQ had some pretty ridiculous HP when I watched a group of melees take on a cleric, who could self heal indefinitely, and without caster intervention - were not able to bring it down.

Seems like it's not wail that needs nerfing it's the artificially, unnaturally high HP of mobs. Casters wouldn't need to instakill at all if melees could contribute more. When they crit and do around 300 damage (pug melee keep in mind) to a mob that has 30k HP - it just takes too long and isn't effective for the melee or the poor healer.

(this would probably lead to a nerf of the damage spells like DBF or nothing would change they would still dominate, and nerfing DBF would probably just lead to another thread of 80+ pages lol.....)

[Kabaon]

What I meant is that PM are almost immune to moderate continuoos dmg but it's really expensive for them recovering from massive dmg.

Yes but come the expansion a properly built PM will have their auras ticking for at least between 40-100 (maybe more, the pale master bug stops me from testing it lol). That's more than moderate damage.

Also because of the boosts Neg energy burst will heal for more as well.

I tank on mine without any sort of DR on live now, the biggest drawback is that I have more hp than NEB can keep up with and occasionally get healed by a cleric with Harm loaded. But what keeps me alive is that ConOp and lich form provide temp hit points when struck so it delays death in time for a NEB or a DA tick.

I'm so looking forward to 727 hp on my non-wf PM come the expansion and the capping at 25.

Edit: Also, WF PM's are actually quite common as they get a higher starting hp at the cost to 1 dc (usually)

Also, 1400 posts, 2 days ago we were at like 4 pages XD

[Schwarzie]

Seems like the major disconnect is that mobs simply have too much HP.

QFT

This actually is a major point often overlooked. Its simply unexplainable why a highly geared lv20 Melee with lots of Past lifes and epic Gear needs FAR more hits to bring down a mob in a level appropriate quest then a lowbie firstliver with a masterworked Greataxe in level appropriate quests.

If the HP of Trash would be low enough to actually make them Trash for melees again (and in turn ofc tone down damage spells then to be in line) Instantkill spells would be proxy nerfed without any actual changes to the spells in the first place.

[Hikup]

Seems like the major disconnect is that mobs simply have too much HP.

I watched yesterday a pug in IQ elite bang away for close to a full minute of undisturbed combat with a single mob. He wasn't ungeared: the mob simply had that many HP. (Given he was a level 18 without his epic amazingness) As a caster I can take it out in .01 sec. I know IQ had some pretty ridiculous HP when I watched a group of melees take on a cleric, who could self heal indefinitely, and without caster intervention - were not able to bring it down.

Seems like it's not wail that needs nerfing it's the artificially, unnaturally high HP of mobs. Casters wouldn't need to instakill at all if melees could contribute more. When they crit and do around 300 damage (pug melee keep in mind) to a mob that has 30k HP - it just takes too long and isn't effective for the melee or the poor healer.

(this would probably lead to a nerf of the damage spells like DBF or nothing would change they would still dominate, and nerfing DBF would probably just lead to another thread of 80+ pages lol.....)

Wow, +1 because I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Azre]

One example? eDA. A wave spawns & instantly clusters onto group.
I cast wail and nearly everything dies. Melees clean up a straggler or two, though if I wanted, I could quickly finger & PK them to boost my killcount ego. But that would be silly & sp intensive. I'm happy to share.

Second example? VoN 1/2/5 Group up, cast wail, and nearly everything dies. Pick off a straggler or two with finger/PK and cast UtD for the zombies.

Third example? eChrono. Wail. Death. CC orange names for party. Pick off a straggler or two with finger/PK.

You spoke of Sands? Does eDQ1 qualify? If so, Wail, death. Pick off -- I'm sure I'm repeating myself here...
I haven't done eChains in a long time, to be honest, so I just may suck in there. Same for eWizKing.
But for eOoB, of course SR is the biggest hurdle there, but my latest incarnation has my SPen higher & I see on average half the groups drop.

It's not as daunting as its made out to be.
The biggest hurdle to get there, for me, was getting my PM hardy enough to take the beatings inflicted while I do my thing.
But that's a discussion completely separate from Wail.

Not sure what sort of caster you're playing, but you must have the most amazing dc's in the entire game. I've ran eDA with 58 intelligence, 49 necro dc, and I still wasn't able to insta kill everything with a single wail.

But that's an awful example of a quest, where 99% of the mobs are trash and they spawn all gathered up on you.

That does not imply one specific spell is overpowered, just means the quest is badly designed.

As for eChrono, what would you rather have necromancers do?, cc alone instead, buff bots, dps?. They're meant to insta kill. I find your complaint about that quest a bit amusing. Given that it's one of the most balanced quest and fun to play with every class, due to the orange named. The tieflings even save often enough, and are nowhere as easy to insta-kill as you describe them to be (that's with a 44 necro DC).

So, you cannot insta-kill everything with a single wail there, nor can you in DQ 1 at least not sustainably.

I would love to know how you wailed the undead mobs in wiz king, which funny enough have high enough will saves to make undeath-to death not really that effective.

As for eCoF, my pale master can hardly even insta-kill the non-ermite casters (conjurers mainly).

So you have a well geared multiple tr'ed caster, and you complain that he's powerful?. That's the whole point of gearing up and tr'ing.

Make a first lifer, then try those quests again, let me know how they work.

If you think the game's too easy for your toon seems like the solution would be to increase mob saves, which they will with the new epic difficulties.

A few powerful, geared to the teeth tr'ed casters do not warrant destroying the most iconic D&D wizard spell.