Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[deahamlet]

Auto-attack or click/hold mouse button. Every melee runs up and hits his own mob, because he wants to get credit for HIS kill, not reduce the number of mobs (and the overall threat to the party) as quickly as possible.

If you would like to characterize your playstyle as intelligent, feel free to do so.

I concur 100%. I used to heal pugs, I pretty much had to order them to stick together or promise half would be dead as they'd fail to attack the important target and /or there was one player per enemy. I'm not in the mood to heal 8 melees individually in a raid. Stick together is an impossible concept to a lot of melee players. Also How many times have you had to tell melee "stop hitting X"? Or had to repeat bases in Von cause some smarty pants kept attacking after djinn was prepped?

[GermanicusMaximus]

I love people like you that makes it an us vs them argument. Its not about melee players vs caster players

One of the primary themes of the expansion is nerfing casters. This is a melee player vs caster player argument. The fact that we are here is incredibly unfortunate. It threatens to destroy the sense of community that has been one of the strong points of this game.

Lets be clear, the people who primarily play casters didn't start this unfortunate chain of events. The people playing melee toons who lobbied to nerf casters brought us to this critical junction in the game.

The wisest thing we could do while we still are a community is to step back, realize that nerfing one group of players to provide advantage to another group is fundamentally flawed, and remove all caster nerfs from the expansion before it hits the live servers.

If you think the us vs. them sentiment is affecting the debate in this thread, you really haven't grasped how it is going to affect game play on the live servers.

[alexp80]

Take 12 casters with you, go into Elite Shroud, and prepare to laugh at how easy it is compared to a "balanced" party.

Ever do a "DOT eChrono?" It's again a joke compared to a "balanced" party.

Here's the word.

Easier, not efficient. Not at all.

But

any barely decent bluebar has selfhealing, so doesn't need babysitting and can provide a decent amount of dmg.

The average melee uses wrong weapons, doesn't know how to move, overall brings mess on the battlefield.

A balanced group is FAR MORE EFFICIENT, but is hard to find decent members and overall coordination in pug, so it's preferred a less efficient party asset that has better chances to complete with a lower perfomance

[Eladiun]

It's not like the could use the House C stuff as an example. In Blown To Bits, a caster has a hard time with those WF paladins. You can drop most of the other stuff but the Paladins make you work.

It's really that simple.

Saving Throws and Spell Pen.

Slapping on these ridiculous contrived alternate mechanics is just foolishness from people who obviously just don't get how to play the game.

Building so a mediocre build can sometimes make DC's is the height of idiocy.

[Ape_Man]

Here's the word.

Easier, not efficient. Not at all.

But

any barely decent bluebar has selfhealing, so doesn't need babysitting and can provide a decent amount of dmg.

The average melee uses wrong weapons, doesn't know how to move, overall brings mess on the battlefield.

A balanced group is FAR MORE EFFICIENT, but is hard to find decent members and overall coordination in pug, so it's preferred a less efficient party asset that has better chances to complete with a lower perfomance

If by efficient you mean "uses fewer resources and takes less time" you are wrong.

But we're talking shroud, not something difficult.

[Cyr]

The developers need to knock off this social engineering where they try and make everyone equal in DDO.

It makes for a bad MMO where there is little to strive for that is worthwhile.

What's next making it so any kill just lowers your DC and damage for 15 seconds with a stack that keeps on getting bigger the better you are until you are just as gimped as everyone else?

[GreatOwl]

The more I read this thread and think about it, the more I'm convinced that the absolute best way to fix things is also a very easy one: get rid of the kill count.

Al the whining originates from people being silly, all about me me me, and over emphasizing kill count. I play both casters and melees (as I firmly believe the majority of people do really) and can't understand this "me against you" mentality. I want my casters to be fun just as much as I want my melees to be fun.

When I play my caster I LIKE to buff my party and CC (to make the quest faster and smoother) and I LIKE killing (to make the quest faster and smoother!). As long as I have fun (by mixing and matching buffing/CCing/killing) and my objective is reached (a fast and smooth completion) why should I care if I had the most kills?
Same is true when I play a melee and, while I wish they had a bit more tactical options at their disposal, mindlessly bashing a sword is not all they can do. I LIKE to trip, stun, improve sunder just as much as I like seeing little skulls on my screen because they all help meeting my objective (you guessed it: a fast and smooth completion!)

So why should I care if I have most kills? Why should I care if I gave the last blow? (btw, I used to play a game where the kill was attributed to whoever dealt the most dmg not who had the last hit. If kills were to have any game importance, they did in that game, than that's the way to do it!) Just can the kill count and most of the cries for balancing will end.

As for the few who are so geared, so powerful, with so many PLs and trivialize content ... so let them, who cares. The other 97% of us play and will always play a different game anyway.

[Syllph]

I'm completely against this but:

If they really want to implement a way to make insta-kills less all-powerful make the haunt effect a "chance to proc" based on their DC. Higher DC = lower proc rate. Additionally, the proc would be per cast not per mob killed so spells like wail wouldn't be so painful. Additionally spells like implosion will not have a diminishing effect per mob killed.

This way the casters who have spent so much time and effort gearing out will have a hugely reduced chance while the ones who are first lifers will be much more subject to haunting.

(I've read about 20 pages worth and haven't found this yet: Does this affect melees using the wraps and terror? Does this affect disruption/vorpal/banish/smite? Does this affect the PK affect of the cloak of night and the nighthag heartstone or the Slay living guards? Does this affect PWK and Trap the soul?)

[voodoogroves]

The more I read this thread and think about it, the more I'm convinced that the absolute best way to fix things is also a very easy one: get rid of the kill count.

Al the whining originates from people being silly, all about me me me, and over emphasizing kill count. I play both casters and melees (as I firmly believe the majority of people do really) and can't understand this "me against you" mentality. I want my casters to be fun just as much as I want my melees to be fun.

When I play my caster I LIKE to buff my party and CC (to make the quest faster and smoother) and I LIKE killing (to make the quest faster and smoother!). As long as I have fun (by mixing and matching buffing/CCing/killing) and my objective is reached (a fast and smooth completion) why should I care if I had the most kills?
Same is true when I play a melee and, while I wish they had a bit more tactical options at their disposal, mindlessly bashing a sword is not all they can do. I LIKE to trip, stun, improve sunder just as much as I like seeing little skulls on my screen because they all help meeting my objective (you guessed it: a fast and smooth completion!)

So why should I care if I have most kills? Why should I care if I gave the last blow? (btw, I used to play a game where the kill was attributed to whoever dealt the most dmg not who had the last hit. If kills were to have any game importance, they did in that game, than that's the way to do it!) Just can the kill count and most of the cries for balancing will end.

As for the few who are so geared, so powerful, with so many PLs and trivialize content ... so let them, who cares. The other 97% of us play and will always play a different game anyway.

;-)

Love it

[DeafeningWhisper]

(I've read about 20 pages worth and haven't found this yet: Does this affect melees using the wraps and terror? Does this affect disruption/vorpal/banish/smite? Does this affect the PK affect of the cloak of night and the nighthag heartstone or the Slay living guards? Does this affect PWK and Trap the soul?)

No additional dev posts past page 6, sorry.

[MRMechMan]

Here's the word.

Easier, not efficient. Not at all.

But

any barely decent bluebar has selfhealing, so doesn't need babysitting and can provide a decent amount of dmg.

The average melee uses wrong weapons, doesn't know how to move, overall brings mess on the battlefield.

A balanced group is FAR MORE EFFICIENT, but is hard to find decent members and overall coordination in pug, so it's preferred a less efficient party asset that has better chances to complete with a lower perfomance

This.

Most melees are bad.

Some casters are bad. But not as many.

I'm sorry if I offended any melee in the making of this post.

[FrostBeard]

This is a terrible idea and a needless waste of game resources.
it doesn't help the fact that melees use vorpal and vorpal like weapons "Terror" for example.
don't forget things like disruption and smiting too which both fall into the same category.

insta-kills have been in the game since release. you put them there and gave them too us way back when your game was dying, remember. before free to play, before the cash shop.

if your going to remove them fine, simply remove all those effects. they were too powerful to begin with, stupid idea to begin with.

if you want casters to use death spells less often simply add a longer timer to any instant death spells or higher spell point costs or rare expensive components.
why would you spend hours and hours creating a new system when its already in place.

do any of you developers even play this game?
Im seriously beginning to doubt it?

[Alavatar]

No additional dev posts past page 6, sorry.

Since Eladrin hasn't made a comment this morning, yet, I suspect he is either (a) answering e-mails; (b) catching up on this thread before making a comment; or (c) working on an implementation plan.

[Masadique]

Ok, so you obviously play a melee who doesn't know how to play well with an instakill caster. I could use you as my case in point.

Let me explain to you how to work well with an instakill caster. (I'll assume Necro.) See, these casters are going to be able to land their spells quite reliably on mobs with low FORT saves. These mobs tend to be the most dangerous mobs (especially for melees with low REF saves). Mobs with high FORT saves, on the other hand, won't be so reliably killed, and usually pose less of a problem to the melees. Thus if you are playing on a melee in a group with an instakill caster, you should be targetting the mobs with high FORT saves, not the mobs with low FORT saves. Everybody benefits.

If you're a smart melee playing in such a group, that's what you'd be doing. If you're a subpar melee in such a group, you'd run straight for the wizard, and then you'd be sad when it died as soon as you got to it. And then you'd probably run around like a chicken with your head cut off, picking all the wrong mobs to go for. And why? Because you don't understand the game well enough to play to the strengths and weaknesses of the other members of your party.

No mind reading is required. You'll figure out what's up, if you know what you're doing, in the first minute or two of the quest. If you can't figure out what's up, well, we there's this saying: "If you can't spot the subupar player in the first minute of the quest, then you ARE the subpar player." A melee that is not playing in a subpar fashion will not, when grouped with an instakill caster, head straight for the enemy wizard over the enemy fighter.

You don't understand how stuns work? Hey, that's odd, fortitude save. We are just like you friend, You can keep calling me subpar. You can keep saying melee have to learn how to work with casters, but you clearly have never tried to work with melee. I can get to that caster faster than most people can click their first of three buttons, monk air dash and movement speed.

So, if I have the caster stunned, why do you still need to insta kill it? Because it is the easier kill for you? So you HAVE to waste mana on someone who's already dead, sorry but I can stun every 6 seconds and they will land so that caster is dead after the first stun, simply because those are the ones your FoD land on?

I'm pretty sure you view all melee as a barb from what you've been saying. We don't all swing a big stick and that's it. A lot of us have more buttons to click than, not a good caster, you.

Faent:
"If you can't spot the subupar player in the first minute of the quest, then you ARE the subpar player."

This is a poker quote if I'm not mistaken. It refers to, originally, the person at the table who is going to be taken for all of their money. How did you bring that to this game? Not everyone has to be worse than you. Sometimes you're just playing with other people, not measuring the size of your, well...

As I try to say every time now; I'm sorry your class got changed, but I'm not sorry if you leave.

V

[FrostBeard]

Sorry i just think time could be spend elsewhere on other things than yet another clogged up caster nerf. that wont do much in the end anyway.

[eris2323]

Since Eladrin hasn't made a comment this morning, yet, I suspect he is either (a) answering e-mails; (b) catching up on this thread before making a comment; or (c) working on an implementation plan.

or d) lookin at a 1000 post long thread and considering a unplanned trip to mexico

[KillEveryone]

or d) lookin at a 1000 post long thread and considering a unplanned trip to mexico

Not quite 1000 yet.

Give it some time.

[eris2323]

Hmmmm I thought for sure we'd hit 1000 quicker.

Oh. It's lunch break.

[smatt]

This is all too complicated....

Just give mobs a +d10 roll at spawn to saves..... There done...

[rdasca]

The only good thing that can be said about this idea is it is different than the last one; it is in no way an improvement as it currently stands. And for those of you that say; “wait and see before ripping on the idea” if we did that we would still be looking at Hard to Kill.

I really wish someone, anyone at Turbine actually played this game, as in sat down with a bag of chips a drink and worked their way through the game, flagged for raids, pugged, built up a guild (or belonged to one), TRed a time or two, you know played the game to have fun not as a job.

Did anyone see the walkthrough of the cove? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TYtD...feature=relmfu Go watch it and tell me anyone of those people play DDO more than one hour a week.

People are posting about how PMs in the xpac can get to a 65 necro DC, maybe; however, I do not see it. I have a 44 necro on live now self-buffed, I can get that to a 45 if and when I get the rest of my gear, at level 25 sometime a year from now I should be at a 48 and with the +5 20 second clickie at a 53, now if I have every one minute pot boast to my DCs I can climb all the way to 56 (57 if I TR into a Drow, not going to happen). So I work on my toon for a year to be right around where I am now? Oh wait if I don’t my toon will be worthless in anything, because this is not just a change to epic levels for the highest, most uber toons, it is for every level of play from the first instant kill spell, great just great.

Now my numbers are most likely a bit off; however, my point is how does this change make a toon I spent three years building and gearing more fun to play, heck I will settle for as much fun to play?

I am not asking to be able to solo eLoB, but I don't want to play a toon that walks into a room kills ten things and then tries to plays either sorc for five minutes, or is a hold / buff bot. And while on the topic of sorcs, what about them? Anyone got a level 16 sorc that can kill half a room full of mods with just their SLAs in less time than the cool down on a PM's wail? Because I have one, are they going to be debuffed as well in the name of "balanced" play?

Tell you what make it so every toon no matter what gets a debuff every time they one shot a mob they get the Haunting debuff to their primary DC, that should make everyone equally T-ed off, see balance!