Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[rtgr10]

you have no idea how much damage does a barbarian with the ED fury of the wild with twisted abilities momentum swing and lay waste. It's crazy

lol. I already saw! ;-)
All barbs now! Next month LFM: "barbarian shroud, be self-suficient." "barbarian TOD, ONE ONLY takes horoth. be self-suficient"

[Jitty]

Haunting trades one percieved problem for the reverse problem.

Picture this: Wizard kills the first room of a dungeon. Party moves to room 2. Wizard sets the CC (web,disco, hold, whatever) haste, rage, and stands there...while the rest of the party kills the entire room.

Won't the wizard be doing what you think melee are doing on live?

What is the puzzle piece that I'm missing that will be fun for the wizard?

No wizard has enough spell points to actively participate in each fight with dps spells as well as set the cc.
The only solution I can think of is not use death spells then you will still be haste rage cc pike!

[Sarnind]

lol. I already saw! ;-)
All barbs now! Next month LFM: "barbarian shroud, be self-suficient." "barbarian TOD, ONE ONLY takes horoth. be self-suficient"

Echrono only barbarians!

[EazyWeazy]

This crappy idea is less horrible than the first crappy idea. Keep up the good work.

[Ape_Man]

Exactly, Bone, this ridiculous notion that casters are overpowered is born out of pure ignorance, most missions, especially the difficult ones, casters are very powerful against base trash mobs, but when it comes to the boss fights, I would argue casters become very weak.

And you would be wrong.

The perfect example of this is Shroud.

You annihilate most of mobs leading up to harry, if all of the melees die, the caster by himself with a healer in attendance cant solo harry down, just cant, a well played and put together melee can.

Take 12 casters with you, go into Elite Shroud, and prepare to laugh at how easy it is compared to a "balanced" party.

Ever do a "DOT eChrono?" It's again a joke compared to a "balanced" party.

So where does that leave us?

Maybe Melee characters should have boss haunting while the casters get rugular haunting, the only thing being that the boss haunting follows you in out of missions for a couple of days, nerfing your to hit/ac/damage.

How would you like that?

You're just being absurd, probably just for the sake of being absurd.

"The Haunting" and "Hard to Kill" are both bad mechanics (as well as mediocre grade-B movies) that shouldn't be implemented but please stop the ridiculousness on both sides of this argument.

[DeafeningWhisper]

So, how often are these "all blue bar raids/epics" I keep seen people use as arguments for casters been OP? On khyber at least, I'de only seen the one and it was called in advance with a sign up sheet in the forums...

People do realize that the average leader STILL only takes 1/2 arcane per raid, no matter the raid right?

Hell, the average ToD only has 1 arcane, and he'd better be a good hage bot and kiter.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Havent read the whole thread so dont know if this has already been asked/suggested... but is the hard to kill debuff dispellable, or could be made to be dispellable?

Ok, couldnt necessarily do it for every single one, but could actually make disjunction a spell worth keeping around for those "eep! kill it!" mobs

[KillEveryone]

Havent read the whole thread so dont know if this has already been asked/suggested... but is the hard to kill debuff dispellable, or could be made to be dispellable?

Ok, couldnt necessarily do it for every single one, but could actually make disjunction a spell worth keeping around for those "eep! kill it!" mobs

Making those spells work has been mentioned and I know I've asked for those spells to be functional last year, as well as asking for mobs to buff themselves that I have to dispel before I can land my other stuff.

[rtgr10]

The best thread ever about HtK: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377429

thx for this grave!

[trog_star]

well ive run quite a few blue bar shrouds,
there quicker, easier and moar fun.

were talking first 11 to join PuG shrouds here.
no signup, no prep, no planning.

besides, whens the last time you soled ADQ2 on a melee?

[MrkGrismer]

Wow, every last 'objection' to this nerf seems to hinge on the idea that the penalty effectively becomes a global death spell cooldown.

Which is kind of accurate at the proposed -2 DC for 15 secs of the proposal.

That's why I proposed that it be changed to:

Current Haunt Level = Current Haunt Level + (((Total CR killed with spell)/(CL + Current Haunt Level))*.5 (drop fractions))

That would make the penalty self-capping such that as the haunt level increases each additional kill the caster manages to get will cause a smaller penalty. It would also mean 0 penalty for FoDing a single target of equal or less level. Also reduced penalties for killing trash that is below level.

In addition the haunt level should charge up a button so when the haunt level reaches the caster level a 'finishing move' becomes available that, if unleashed creates a 'Deathblossom Wraith' in the caster's image that attack enemies of the caster.

This would give the caster reason to keep trying instead of just 'laying off' the death spells until the haunt goes away.

Haunt level should go down be one every three seconds.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Also, melee are stupid now? Glad we took the gauntlets off and saw just how mature some forumites really are.

Auto-attack or click/hold mouse button. Every melee runs up and hits his own mob, because he wants to get credit for HIS kill, not reduce the number of mobs (and the overall threat to the party) as quickly as possible.

If you would like to characterize your playstyle as intelligent, feel free to do so.

[Ape_Man]

So, how often are these "all blue bar raids/epics" I keep seen people use as arguments for casters been OP? On khyber at least, I'de only seen the one and it was called in advance with a sign up sheet in the forums...

All the time on other servers. I don't do them too often because they are boring and I can usually fill a "tradidional" group in guild/channel faster. Also don't like putting everyone's caster on timer at the same time, that has other complications.

All caster 6-man epics are the same, tons of fun a gloriously easy.

People do realize that the average leader STILL only takes 1/2 arcane per raid, no matter the raid right?

The average raid leader is an idiot. The misunderstandings of stupid people does not make reality.

It's been like this since DOTs, a lousy geared Wizard with DOTs will do more damage than the typical pugger melee who hasn't farmed out his dual TOD sets and Claw/Abishais stuff yet.

Hell, the average ToD only has 1 arcane, and he'd better be a good hage bot and kiter.

Again, if people are still limiting this raid to one caster the misunderstandings of stupid people does not make reality.


But with all that said . .. HTK and Haunting are still terrible ideas that should never see the light of day.

[Totensonntag]

Why not just boost mob saves depending on party size or presence of melees? If I solo my insta kills can't have impact on other people enjoying the game, right?

I'm totally against "hard to kill" or "haunting" or what ever penalty you have to offer. But if you really must do it, don't affect solo gameplay.

[Voldomar]

well ive run quite a few blue bar shrouds,
there quicker, easier and moar fun.

were talking first 11 to join PuG shrouds here.
no signup, no prep, no planning.

besides, whens the last time you soled ADQ2 on a melee?

And what does it tell you?
It should tell that instakills are not a real problem (btw, they work great in adq2 uh? ).
Casters can engage mobs in different ways: nuke, CC, instakills. Aside from the occasional stun/trip here and there, even the best melee can't do much else than put himself on the rails waiting for the train to hit him, hoping his hps/ac/healing amp are high enough to keep him on his feet...
Fix melees. Give them more tactical choices, more abilities to turn the flow of the combat, something that's not only straight dps increase.
You said it: more fun. It's the keyword here.

[Ape_Man]

Why not just boost mob saves depending on party size or presence of melees? If I solo my insta kills can't have impact on other people enjoying the game, right?

I'm totally against "hard to kill" or "haunting" or what ever penalty you have to offer. But if you really must do it, don't affect solo gameplay.

Bad idea, that kills the usefulness of stunning fist/blow and assassinate.

[Meretrix]

The problem with HTK was it affectively removed instant kill spells. Killing something that's half dead is not an insta kill. It also rendered aoe insta kills completely worthless.

The problem with haunting is it punishes players for successfully landing a spell. It also makes achieving a high DC less important which is the focal point of wizard builds.

I would suggest buffing epics mobs' saves and sr but that might make other (less powerful) spells harder to land than is intended.

The only solution I can see to this problem is giving epic mobs a save vs death effect and placing the bar high enough as to make wailing through a quest an appropriate challenge.

but overall I think the bigger problem lies with melee.. How is instant killing every mob in the game with one hit of your stupid op terror sword not an issue?

[Eladiun]

but overall I think the bigger problem lies with melee.. How is instant killing every mob in the game with one hit of your stupid op terror sword not an issue?

...and post update with your random generated nightmare weapons...dual wielding nightmare weapons...

[Thar]

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please!!!


Don't nerf heroic levels. Just don't.

Otherwise, this new proposal is actually WORSE than the last one.

Didn't they just increase these cooldown timers a few updates ago. Enough is enough. You (devs) need to pick a baseline and stick with it. Stop making major changes every year.

Wizards need to be the DC masters and charms are nerf'd, stone to flesh is nerf'd, insta kills are on long timers. now another nerf... Seriously. what is the point in playing a caster with half the spell points if you can't utlize them straticially with your dc spells. Might as well play a sorc and firewall... oh wait...

[rtgr10]

Who knows implement only a simple calculation for the instant kill does not solve? Something like: DCs PM - Mob Res = Value. This value is above 10 or any other value, instant kill .... or gives the proportionate damage.

I dunno. Just know that HTK will not work.

Next LFM: "eLob barbarian: Bring your own stick" (stick = 50[1d2] without buffs)