Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[GermanicusMaximus]

No. If you toss an Implosion and it kills five mobs, your DC's on all death magic (including Destruction) will look like this over time:

Seconds..................DC Penalty

000......Implosion..... -10
015........................ -8
030........................ -6
045........................ -4
060........................ -2
075........................ 0

Your Implosion is on a 60 second cooldown, so if you toss it when it comes off timer, it will suffer a -2 DC Penalty. If you wait 75 seconds before tossing the second Implosion (remember, we're assuming your Implosion killed five mobs), you'll toss it at the ordinary DC.

If you toss a Destruction 44 seconds after tossing your "five kill" Implosion, your Destruction will suffer a -6 Penalty to its DC.

Divine casters have only 4 offensive spells with any significant utility at end game:

1) Implosion
2) Destruction
3) Blade Barrier
4) Divine Punishment

The max DPS of Blade Barrier and Divine Punishment has already been nerfed in the update. The change under discussion in this thread potentially nerfs Implosion and Destruction.

Nerfing 4 of the 4 significant end game offensive spells given to divine casters essentially converts a divine caster into a healbot. Anyone believing that a significant number of people are going to play a healbot in 2012 is just kidding himself.

These nerfs need to be addressed before the expansion hits the live servers, or Turbine needs to put in place a backup plan to hand out free stacks of CSW pots to melee toons on a daily basis.

[FranOhmsford]

Divine casters have only 4 offensive spells with any significant utility at end game:

1) Implosion
2) Destruction
3) Blade Barrier
4) Divine Punishment

The max DPS of Blade Barrier and Divine Punishment has already been nerfed in the update. The change under discussion in this thread potentially nerfs Implosion and Destruction.

Nerfing 4 of the 4 significant end game offensive spells given to divine casters essentially converts a divine caster into a healbot. Anyone believing that a significant number of people are going to play a healbot in 2012 is just kidding himself.

These nerfs need to be addressed before the expansion hits the live servers, or Turbine needs to put in place a backup plan to hand out free stacks of CSW pots to melee toons on a daily basis.

Don't forget the Class based Armour boosts that weren't given to Clerics/Souls.
Radiant Servant relies on you being in the middle of the ruck - We're going to take far more damage from here on in if we attempt to use our ONLY Prestige!

[Thrudh]

The fact that we are nerfing arcanes merely so melees can feel better about themselves

That is NOT why wail needs to be nerfed. WoPs were not nerfed in order to make arcanes feel better about themselves. Barbarian critical rage was not taken away to make other classes feel better about themselves. Some abilities ARE intrinsically overpowered.

You need to realize that the devs are not doing this JUST to make the melees happy, otherwise you will be unable to reasonably discuss the change with them.

[Faent]

Divine casters have only 4 offensive spells with any significant utility at end game:

1) Implosion
2) Destruction
3) Blade Barrier
4) Divine Punishment

The max DPS of Blade Barrier and Divine Punishment has already been nerfed in the update. The change under discussion in this thread potentially nerfs Implosion and Destruction.

Nerfing 4 of the 4 significant end game offensive spells given to divine casters essentially converts a divine caster into a healbot. Anyone believing that a significant number of people are going to play a healbot in 2012 is just kidding himself.

These nerfs need to be addressed before the expansion hits the live servers, or Turbine needs to put in place a backup plan to hand out free stacks of CSW pots to melee toons on a daily basis.

Agreed. I did not mean to imply that casting divines aren't being royally screwed by these changes. They are. If you dare to Implode, you're going to have to lay off that Destruction for awhile. Fail. This is the last thing casting divines need to have to do.

[Habreno]

This is why you don't build one-trick ponies.



I know my Cleric will be quite fine after the update, even if this goes through (which would be an absolutely horrendous move, one I am completely and utterly astounded is even being considered) however I do recognize that it is a very heavyhanded backhanded nerf. I have a suggestion on page 61 (10 posts/page format) which may help this be less of a nerf, but still the best solution is to not introduce it at all.


Now, going back to Hard to Kill: Raise the instakill threshold to 90% HP and we're fine.

[Faent]

You need to realize that the devs are not doing this to make the melees happy, otherwise you will be unable to reasonably discuss the change with them.

Actually, if you had read this thread, you'd have realized that this was clearly part of the stated reason for the proposed Haunting.

[Thrudh]

Thrudh:

I can see where you are coming from. However at the same time, Wail of the Banshee is SUPPOSED to be one of the most potent and terrible spells a wizard can cast. It is a level 9 arcane spell afterall. In D&D lore, level 9 spells surpass any other class ability in terms of raw power and effect. In DDO, translating something like that is an imperfect art.

At the end-game, arcanes are indeed more powerful than the melee whom they cowered behind at the earlier levels. This progression and transition are as much a part of the fantasy genre as the genre itself. Think about Raistlin and Caramon from the Dragonlance Saga. Think about Elminster of the Forgotten Realms, or Mordenkainen of Greyhawk.

Whether one likes it or not, spell casters are supposed to surpass the martial classes in terms of raw power.

Then just change the cooldown (which basically this Haunting does, except it affects ALL death spells, not just wail, so I'm against it). Wizards in PnP don't cast 9th level spells in every room. Wail should not be used to clear a room full of rats (and every room after that), but saved for tough encounters.

[Thrudh]

Actually, if you had read this thread, you'd have realized that this was clearly part of the stated reason for the proposed Haunting.

Show me the dev quote that backs up your position please.

[LeLoric]

Banish does not involve killing a mob (if you want to get technical)

And the devs have not said whether it will involve spells of the school Necromancy, or all "insta-kill" spells. Or in the case of Banishment, "insta-send-back-to-their-plane-of-existence"

Death Magic, the exact term eladrin used is what deathblock stops. So if deathblock stops it it's affected here. The spells I listed including banishment in DDO are all stopped by deathblock. Not sure why we need dev clarification here that's what it's always been in DDO. The only concern was spell ike abilities like the shadowdancers consume which is just a recoded implosion.

[Cadveen]

Then just change the cooldown (which basically this Haunting does, except it affects ALL death spells, not just wail, so I'm against it). Wizards in PnP don't cast 9th level spells in every room. Wail should not be used to clear a room full of rats (and every room after that), but saved for tough encounters.

WIZARDS IN PNP?!? You cannot compare the spells usage with pnp. The encounter rate in this MMO version of DND is increased by 5000%. You never fight 100 plus mobs in one campaign sitting. I am sure you do on your melee pnp character though. I am sure your PNP clerics could keep up with the healing as well.

[tinyelvis]

OK. Tinyelvis, either you really didn't understand the idea that you're trying to comment on, or you're deliberately misrepresenting for the purposes of stirring up trouble.

The "successful" caster gets the penalty for one-shotting a group of mobs. The "unsuccessful" caster doesn't get the penalty because they just burned SP, ticked off the group, and didn't kill any of them.
The lesser-performing character will take the same penalty as the better-performing one, when he gets the same result. He'll just have to waste more SP and time to get that result.

Actually I dont think you understand the implications of a rule like this. Say you have spent a couple years building the perfect PM. Now you start say epic devils assault. Your first wail kills say 6 targets. You now operate at a -12 DC and have a stack of debuffs for a minute and a half. Meanwhile, the fresh off the boat caster rolled up 4 days ago (he used vet status and and a stone) managed only one kill with his wail spell. His mediocre -2 DC is still higher than your now horrid DC. He can continue to cast death spells and much more effectively than you.

Punishing folks for success at your MMO is a very poor idea. It does not lead to incentive to play but rather the opposite. If you really come to the point where you need to punish for success, its time to take a step back and rethink the whole situation.

Honestly though, I think turbine should hire some experts and find out how the really talented people play at the "game breaking" level. Learn from these folks how to design your encounters. Here is a hint,.... densely packed enemy mobs is a no no.

[Faent]

Show me the dev quote that backs up your position please.

Oh, you want me to do your homework for you? That's hard to do, given how many threads are being deleted, closed and/or hidden by Turbine. And of course, it's hard to keep what's been said in Closed Beta distinct from what's been said in Open Beta. But you can gather a bit of information from one of Eladrin's opening statements in this thread:

We want you to be able to have the "moment" of killing a bunch of creatures with a death spell, but don't want to leave the rest of the party with little to do.

[Masadique]

WIZARDS IN PNP?!? You cannot compare the spells usage with pnp. The encounter rate in this MMO version of DND is increased by 5000%. You never fight 100 plus mobs in one campaign sitting. I am sure you do on your melee pnp character though. I am sure your PNP clerics could keep up with the healing as well.

Read who he quoted. THEY used DnD PnP. People keep using it to say "this is how it was initially". Well, you could cast it, what, 3 times per day? OK casters, let's go back to PnP rules. You guys don't get SP. Instead you get 3-4 casts of a given level of spells per rest.

DDO =/= PnP DnD.

V

[butcheredspirit]

A cap on wail and increased cool down is the best I've seen without completely nerfing classes who use instakills.

A cap of 6 should suffice. And make the cool down 45 seconds and make implosion te same so mage's and divine's aoe death spells will have the cool down. It will be painful at first but it will not affect our DCs.

Seems fair to me.

I vote for this.

As do I.
Let's just deal with the spell that is causing concerns.
We don't need to nerf every insta-kill or spell casting class, just rebalance Wail of the Banshee.

[tihocan]

I like it
Happy Haunting!

[DeafeningWhisper]

That is NOT why wail needs to be nerfed. WoPs were not nerfed in order to make arcanes feel better about themselves. Barbarian critical rage was not taken away to make other classes feel better about themselves. Some abilities ARE intrinsically overpowered.

You need to realize that the devs are not doing this JUST to make the melees happy, otherwise you will be unable to reasonably discuss the change with them.

I agree, Wail should work more like Power Surge for a Kensai.

Kensai don't run with it on at all times, because it eats away at haste boosts and has limited used per rest.

Right now Wail is more like Stunning-Fist, used whenever it's off timer.

That's why I could get behind a mechanic like Haunted, need a better name thou PMs don't get "haunted", may tainted?

Tainted:

"The sight of your fresh kill clouds your mind and diminishes your focus, the call to end the live of your enemies cannot be ignored."

[Ebonta]

It seriously feels like you're trying to punish the people that worked hard on their Necromancy DC's, Turbine.

[PopeJual]

Lots of other people have made clear, easy to understand posts that explain the many reasons why this is bad. I am sufficiently upset with what I perceive as foolish design choices relating to insta-kill that I do not think I can successfully post my analysis for why this change is a bad idea without crossing the line to infraction-ville.

I'll just say that I think that this is a shockingly bad idea and that there have been *many* decent player suggestions for balancing the instakill spells.

When a level 25 max geared Magister Pale Master can't successfully cast 3 Wails in a row in Kobold Assault on Normal, something is seriously wrong.


At this point, I think that we might just be better off seeing Wail removed from the game entirely since that's the spell that really gets people's blood pressure up. No more Wail = no more need to even think about a need to balance instakill spells.

[Hokiewa]

Read who he quoted. THEY used DnD PnP. People keep using it to say "this is how it was initially". Well, you could cast it, what, 3 times per day? OK casters, let's go back to PnP rules. You guys don't get SP. Instead you get 3-4 casts of a given level of spells per rest.

DDO =/= PnP DnD.

V

Ridiculous comparison as usual and you counter your own arguement. Funny stuff!

[PopeJual]

A cap on wail and increased cool down is the best I've seen without completely nerfing classes who use instakills.

A cap of 6 should suffice. And make the cool down 45 seconds and make implosion te same so mage's and divine's aoe death spells will have the cool down. It will be painful at first but it will not affect our DCs.

Seems fair to me.

This seems much less horrible than the two "solutions" from Turbine so far.

Maybe even a Leap-of-Faith style cap on Wail. You get 5 Wails per rest shrine and they regenerate at the rate of 1 per 4 minutes.

Implosion could regenerate at the rate of 1 per 2 minutes since it tends to take out fewer enemies than Wail does.