Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[nix_vali]

I cant belive that some people actually applaud and say Bravo Turbine for coming up whit this...Two most poor ideas coming from devs i seen so far.

You want do to something ok give the mobs higher saves more SR or something but this just lol....

[KillEveryone]

Nevermind. I just got lost in this thread.

[Tid12]

That's because you don't understand the system. Let me break it down for you (and others):

Suppose I Wail 10 mobs. I just got hit with a massive 150 second nerf to my instakills.

Suppose I do not Wail 10 mobs. I have 10 totally unnerfed Finger kills in me over the next 150 seconds.

So the Wail cost me kills (the ones I would pick up at a slightly lower DC penalty from adding in extra Fingers), cost me selectivity (being able to kill the most dangerous stuff), and converts me into a weak sorcerer for 150 seconds.

Not Wailing at all is the obviously better strategy, and that strategy is so darn weak I might as well not be a high Necro wizzie.

Or: Wail 10 mobs (and there is still people that say Wail isn't op? 10 mobs with 1 click? ), 150 secs debuff. Next room you can hold everything, use your cheap SLAs with +50% from held mobs, help the melees to kill them. Next room, the debuff is gone.

Don't make it look worse than it is. And i'm not trying to make it better than it is.

My suggestion: I still think that -1 DC and 8 second per mob would be much better, capped at 10 mobs and 80 seconds thou.

[Faent]

so you can kill 10 mobs *all at once* or you can kill 10 mobs *over 150 second* and you're convinced that killing 10 mobs over 150 seconds is going to be the optimal strategy every time?

Yes. You lose instakills by wailing. The higher your DC's, the more you lose. A 10 kill-Wail generates 10 TOTALLY UNNERFED Finger instakills. A high-DC caster will be able to fit a few more Fingers into the mix at a slight penalty to hit up to 15 or more instakills in that 150 second period. They can also target them wisely. And they didn't just completely LOSE their ability to instakill ANYTHING for several minutes, which is massively unfun.

but there are also plenty of situations where killing them all at once is going to be the way to go.

Yes, your last cast of an instakill spell in the quest right before the boss-fight where you shift to DoT's. That's it.

You need to think about this change carefully and not just wish it's great because you're desperate to see Necro arcanes nerfed into the ground.

[DarkForte]

This is a good post, and I agree that I'm not sure that Haunting is really the best solution to the problem.. I'd probably rather see a mix of mobs, some that are resistant or even immune to death magic mixed in with others that are weak against death magic.

I was actually thinking you were being heavily short-sighted, and then I saw this gem. It's already implemented in eChrono, and wizards do CC there! Even the maxed DC necromancers, since they can only wail the casters/archers, which they do. There is teamwork, and everyone is happy.

[Faent]

Horrible idea. Really, horrible idea.

Which? My explanation of why this is a total Wail nerf? Or my attempted explanation? =)

[KillEveryone]

Which? My explanation of why this is a total Wail nerf? Or my attempted explanation? =)

I may have got lost following this but I though you proposed putting all insta kill spells on the same timer and that was your explanation.

If you were not proposing that, then I'll retract my previous post.

[loki_3369]

Very good idea, Eladrin. It does sound like it could get excessive with people dragging tons of mobs into one wail, but overall I think it addresses the issue pretty well.

[Faent]

I may have got lost following this but I though you proposed putting all insta kill spells on the same timer and that was your explanation.

If you were not proposing that, then I'll retract my previous post.

No, that's not what I proposed. I didn't really propose anything. I explained what the optimal play style for a high-Necro caster would be on Eladrin's proposal: it's to never use Wail.

[KillEveryone]

No, that's not what I proposed. I didn't really propose anything. I explained what the optimal play style for a high-Necro caster would be on Eladrin's proposal: it's to never use Wail.

Ok, I changed my post.

[Kabaon]

Wait, am I misunderstanding it. Is it -20 to dc's for 15 seconds and then it pops back to normal levels, or is it -20 for 15 seconds, and then pops to -18 for 15 seconds, and then to -16 for 15 seconds?

If it's the former, I don't see the issue, if it's the latter, what a ****** nerf.

As I mentioned before, give mobs randomized spell lists that could or could not include DW or DW, Mass instead and let them cast it randomly. We wouldn't have a need for a nerf becuase we'd never know until it was too late if they had cast it. And it wouldn't be the same twice.

[Faent]

Wait, am I misunderstanding it. Is it -20 to dc's for 15 seconds and then it pops back to normal levels, or is it -20 for 15 seconds, and then pops to -18 for 15 seconds, and then to -16 for 15 seconds? If it's the former, I don't see the issue, if it's the latter, what a ****** nerf.

It's the latter. Seeing it now? =)

[Krell]

I cannot express enough how awful I think Punishing players more the better they are is.
Players should NOT be punished for TRing multiple times to build up their Spell Penn.. Their DC's... Accumulating the best gear they can for their Casters....

If you are going to decrease the effectiveness of insta-kill spells. It needs to be Universal. It needs to be FAIR. Someone who casts a Wail of the banshee with a 45DC should get hit the SAME as if a player with a 37DC. Basing the punishment on the mobs save rolls is a travesty.

Agreed

[Dolphious]

Yes. You lose instakills by wailing. The higher your DC's, the more you lose. A 10 kill-Wail generates 10 TOTALLY UNNERFED instakills. A high-DC caster will be able to fit a few more Fingers into the mix at a slight penalty to hit up to 15 or more instakills in that 150 second period. They can also target them wisely. And they didn't just completely LOSE their ability to instakill ANYTHING for several minutes, which is massively unfun.



Yes, your last cast of an instakill spell in the quest right before the boss-fight where you shift to DoT's. That's it.

You need to think about this change carefully and not just wish it's great because you're desperate to see Necro arcanes nerfed into the ground.

Well frankly I think we all (myself included) need to actually play with this change some before we can either condemn or anoint it. Speculation based on experience is fine, but it's not a replacement for play testing.

[aerosole]

Yes. You lose instakills by wailing. The higher your DC's, the more you lose. A 10 kill-Wail generates 10 TOTALLY UNNERFED instakills. A high-DC caster will be able to fit a few more Fingers into the mix at a slight penalty to hit up to 15 or more instakills in that 150 second period. They can also target them wisely. And they didn't just completely LOSE their ability to instakill ANYTHING for several minutes, which is massively unfun.

10 quickened, heightened fods will also cost you 10x the sp of a single wail. Not a big deal at first, but we aren't talking about only 10 kills, are we? Say 20 kills? Or 30? You probably are also planning on conserving some sp for the boss fight, perhaps?

Most encounters also aren't 10 mobs unless the caster make it so by actively gathers them up.

For the moderate dc caster with half decent insta-kill capability, wail + fod backs up each other. Even the high dc caster gets the occasional save as well.

Don't get me wrong, wail is majorly nerfed by haunting, but there's still situations when wail could come in handy.

[Hokiewa]

With more discussion it is still a horrible alternative

[BruceTheHoon]

No, that's not what I proposed. I didn't really propose anything. I explained what the optimal play style for a high-Necro caster would be on Eladrin's proposal: it's to never use Wail.

Your explanation doesn't really explain, how using 400 SP is more optimal than using 50. Or why It's optimal to let monsters live and hit you and your party instead of just killing them.

[aerendhil]

The "hauting" mechanic is interesting.
I play a PM and I can fully understand how melees can be frustrated sometimes ^o^
So forcing instakill casters to more teamplay is ok in my book.

On the other hand, I still scream "DoooMMMMM!!!!!11111!!!!" at the AC change.

[phalaeo]

Implosion has a cap on how many mobs can be killed with it. If Wail is the "problem", just cap how many mobs can be killed with 1 cast, and up the timer slightly.

Say... let Wail kill up to 6 mobs, increase timer to 40 secs.

IMO, it's a better solution than Haunting or HTK.

And nobody dev-wise has commented how this will effect Clerics/FvS for Destruction/Slay Living (other commenters may need a reminder that Implosion is not Necromancy )

[HarveyMilk]

Instead of an outright nerf, here's a simple mechanic change that would be fun.

Remove the time limit, and put counters on for the number of enemies killed by aoe necro death spells. Each counter lowers your necromancy DC by 2. Remove counters by "Stealing Souls," getting a killing blow w/your other spells, including single target death spells. [SHOCK, you mean, use PK while my necro DC is lowered?!]

Now, so this doesn't feel like an outright nerf, put an enhancement in the necro tree for wizzies to gain +1/+2 DC by "Stealing Souls." So when they have no Haunting counters, they can get a net positive to their DC.

This does a) stops solo players from just afking until they're reset (which is not fun) and b) makes your intended change (tones down the amount of wail/circle spam) while still letting people spec for a bump in DC, and makes the mechanic fun.

BTW, I think this should ONLY apply to necromancy AoE, not implosion, for a whole list of reasons I won't get into now.

Thanks and good luck.