Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Kaldais]

I like it; however please consider putting a hard cap on the debuff.

I much perfer -1DC/15sec stacking 10 times. A -10DC would be sufficient in curbing a zerging necro.

Also instead of placing a static quest debuff on all hard/elite/epic hard/epic elite quests, please consider using monster CR. IE. Haunting debuff only applies if you use necromancy instand kill to sniff the life of a much powerful creature. Debuff applies if the creature you kill has CR greater than your character level + 5(that number to be worked out). This will still give necromancers the option to run through level 1 elite quests and slaughter 200 cr 5 kobolds.

[sweez]

So what are exactly 'death' spells?

Does that include all spells that have any sort of instakill as their effect, regardless of their school including but not limited to FoD, Wail, CoD, PK, TTS, Prismatic (sp)ray, Implosion, Destruction, Slay living?

Does it only include spells that are prevented by deathward (excluding TTS, Prismatic (sp)ray), regardless of their school?

Does it include all spells that fall under the school of necromancy (which would include stuff like Bestow Curse, Fear, etc.)?

Does it only include spells that are instakills and also of the necromancy school?


Will there be a hard cap on the debuff?



I personally see absolutely no need to nerf death effects (I do see much need to buff other stuff but I guess I'm weird), and this does sound like the typical Turbine move of announcing a huge nerf, then 'listening' to the playerbase followed by the introduction of a slightly less huge nerf, and basking in people's thanks (because, let's face it, people are sheep, and you guys sure know how to play on that)...

...but if it only affects spells affected by deathward (and if you consequently modify the HD restrictions on TTS, and possibly make Prismatic (sp)ray slightly less random), and if it's hard capped at say -6 (that's nerfing someone's DC efficiency by a third), I'll give you that it's not completely horribad.

[herzkos]

haven't read whole thread only to page 3 or so. will do so after posting.

I think i see what you did there.
Make totally hideous/outrageous "change". forum apoplexy occurs.
give a day or two to stew.
post original idea as a "compromise".

Now seen as listening to player base while getting change that was originally desired . . .
or maybe i'm just a naturally evil thinking person.

oh yeah the merits:
I like the proposed change.
Unlike many posters want, keep it the same throughout all difficulty levels.
My reason for this is that a spell should operate consistently.
If you want, make it a 10 sec debuff in heroic levels and a 15 sec debuff on epic due to epic
mobs power and ability to hang on after life as it were.
Am open to the amount/mob changing to -1/kill or staying at -2. Either way it has the desired
effect.

not that anyone will read this far into the thread for "new" opinions anyway.

/edit. ok, so one other poster was wearing his tinfoil hat too.
only other thing after reading the whole thread:
don't cap it. it's simple: if you cast and it lands then you get a debuff. if you cast and whiff, no debuff.
it's self capping.

[Autolycus]

Devs, thank you for reconsidering "Hard to kill". Please keep in mind that whatever changes you make also affects casting Divines!

One of the few fun parts of playing my caster cleric is being able to occasionally toss out an implosion, destruction, slay living, banishment, or dismissal. I cannot clear entire dungeons with them as all are single target except implosion and banishment and implosion only has a chance to kill a single mob every few seconds for a very short duration while having a very long cooldown.

Without instakill spells, Divine offensive casting is reduced to a very limited spell list.

• Cometfall is good.
• Flamestrike and Firestorm(annoying to target) both do fire damage to which many high level mobs are immune.
• Blade Barrier which most pugs don't take advantage of when you cast it.
• That leaves low damage spells such as nimbus of light and searing light which I believe caps damage at tenth level.

Yes, I still toss Greater Command and Soundburst, but occasionally it's nice(fun) to be able to kill something between healing, buffing, and crowd control.

[Vordax]

Just thinking out loud here, about some existing raids:

ToD - As a caster I usually get orthon duty. After the 2nd or 3rd Orthon my DC would start to get unreilable.

LoB - end fight, a PM can take out a few mobs, then no longer can reliably kill mobs.

Shroud - a PM can clear one portal probably before being unable to continue.

So a party leader has the option of taking additional casters and have them alternate kills here, or not take any casters and just go all melee and maybe pick up a bard for haste.

[Chette]

Hi Eladrin,

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to feedback. I wish that this could have been something proposed in the original closed beta, as I think you might have received calmer, more focused feedback. When something like this is listed out of the blue in an open beta, people tend to panic, and wonder if something is being slipped in all sneaky like.

Anyway, I think what you have proposed is a step in the right direction, some limit to magical insta-death, but with higher penalties applied to the mass insta-kills, which are much more overpowering than the single targets.

I did want to jump on one item you mentioned though.

We want to control how often you're clearing rooms of all enemies with a few quick casts of a spell, but don't want to have even longer cooldowns (which again unfairly harm weaker casters the most, since their death effects are less likely to actually stick).

Since you agree that having a long cooldowns unfairly harm weaker casters the most, can you comment on why the cooldown on implode is 60 seconds, while the cooldowns on wail and circle of death are 30 seconds? Divine casters are typically weaker at the instakills than wizards, due to the lack of extra feats, or enhancements to improve their DCs, yet they have one fourth the AOE instakill capacity. Would you consider reducing this timer to 30 seconds to bring it more in line with wail?

[Dolphious]

Just thinking out loud here, about some existing raids:

ToD - As a caster I usually get orthon duty. After the 2nd or 3rd Orthon my DC would start to get unreilable.

LoB - end fight, a PM can take out a few mobs, then no longer can reliably kill mobs.

Shroud - a PM can clear one portal probably before being unable to continue.

So a party leader has the option of taking additional casters and have them alternate kills here, or not take any casters and just go all melee and maybe pick up a bard for haste.

Or you could, ya know, cast a different kind of spell while you're on a soft timer....

[maddmatt70]

Does death magic-2 dc include implosion? It should honestly because FVS and clerics also culprits in this.

[Lawliet]

Don't know if others had suggested this, but could u implement a system similar to a lot of druid enhancement and black dragon armor. So the haunting has a lesser chance to activate when u kill a mob that has a lower cr than u. Because there are a lot of places where a bunch of low level bats or stuff spawn activating alert or other consequences and needs to be done quickly with, like bat wave in vod.

[Armus]

Have to add this point, a-2 per mob killed is going to be crazy when I cast wail in the middle of a pack of rats. Wail and similar spells are made to clear large groups of mobs. The minus should apply per spell and have a cap. each debuff from said spell should have its own timer.

[Eladrin]

I think the goal is for you to bring some friends, or use different tactics than just wail all the time.

This change still lets you use wail at full (or near full) power for certain situations, but no longer for ALL situations.

We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.

Instead of debuffing casters, why aren't melees just made better?

It's very hard to catch up to "press 3 to kill everything in the room". (Which we actually gave melees in the Grandmaster of Flowers tree, with a much longer cooldown than Wail.)

Is thise planned only for epic hard and epic elite?

Currently we're thinking of having it in both Heroic and Epic content for consistency.

I'd be much more comfortable if this new dynamic was also named after a Steven Seagal movie.

Does it have to be a theater release or are the straight-to-video ones fair game too?

I just feel like this, all of this, is punishing people who are successful with their toons, and spent time building them that way.

The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.

Great idea - it's really good because it sound slike the values/durations could be fiddled with, once people see how it plays out.

Yes, there'll be a bit of fiddling to do.

Well, he is not talking about a debuff that stops casting, but one that applies a stacking penalty on death spell DCs, making your spells easier to save against (less effective).

Correct.

On wail where you hit 10 mobs means -20 to DCs for 150 seconds?

-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.

Doesn't make sense. You guys would be better off increasing the cooldown of death spells. If they are that bad then increase the cooldown and not decrease the dc.

I disagree - if you fail to kill something, then with a long cooldown you simply cannot try again. With a debuff, you can try again, and then you can choose whether or not you want to cast the spell on another target or wait for the debuff to drop. It's much more lenient than a lengthened cooldown.

There are other possibilities for the future as well. One of the recent ideas in the pit is that when we revamp the enhancements, have a few things that improve with your Haunt level. An ability that grants a bonus to Negative Energy Spell Power based on it, or that consumes souls for some effect? That's got to go into the Pale Master tree.

[Malshier]

Or you could, ya know, cast a different kind of spell while you're on a soft timer....

If you're an ice savant you should cast fire spells when you're on cool down because, ya know, you can cast different spells when you're on timer....

Pale Masters excel at death spells. Asking them to use abilities they're not specialized in is silly. Especially considering the change to spell casting in regard to damage spells. No more superior potency 6 to benefit all your elemental spells. Now you have to carry clickies and gear swap a lot more.

[Voldomar]

Just thinking out loud here, about some existing raids:

ToD - As a caster I usually get orthon duty. After the 2nd or 3rd Orthon my DC would start to get unreilable.

LoB - end fight, a PM can take out a few mobs, then no longer can reliably kill mobs.

Shroud - a PM can clear one portal probably before being unable to continue.

I didn't think about that.
Haunting sounds better on paper than in actual gameplay

[eris2323]

So..... we still get penalized for attempting to use our core class abilities?

You know, you might consider buffing melee and ranged - so that they can get within range of stuff, or bring stuff TO them quicker... make them feel useful, instead of how they are now. It's not our fault you didn't program in an ability for fighters to charge faster than haste, and you decided to break archery.

Right now they have nothing. And we have spells. Of course they are envious.

You don't penalize any other classes for using their spells, or abilities...

Will clerics now have a 'all healed out' aura? -10% healing for every person healed? Those mass heals, way too powerful.

I guess it's better than what you had.... but still, it could be better.

[Vordax]

Or you could, ya know, cast a different kind of spell while you're on a soft timer....

Obviously. But when things need to get dead fast, PM's insta-kill, their DPS ability is no where near as strong as a sorc. So may as well TR to that.

[Ape_Man]

Does it have to be a theater release or are the straight-to-video ones fair game too?

I'm not that picky.

[Malshier]

The intent is for the super-successful ones to be able to shine by:
1) Being successful the first cast.
2) Having a much better chance at being successful on a subsequent casts than the less well geared characters.

How well geared do I have to be to pull off a successful circle of death after my wail drops my DC by 12 points? that's basically a -24 to my INT score, since +1 dc requires +2 casting stat.

Can we make it that every time a barbarian killsa mob they get a -2 to their strength score? Every time a fighter trips/stuns/sunders something they get a -2 to their DC for that particular combat tactic? Every time a cleric casts a mass cure spell, they lose -2 wisdom?

[LeLoric]

We want to let you use Wail when you need it, but use some other spells as well. Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff.

Currently we're planning on having it on all of the instant death spells. In theory, single target spells like Finger of Death generally won't build your stack too high since the debuff will be more than half over by the time it's off cooldown, it's AOE effects that will give you a major modifier that will stick around for a while.

So if I cast finger and then 8 sec later after cooldown is gone I cast finger again, wouldnt it then give me two stacks with a 15 second timeer meaning to get rid of one I have to wait another 15 seconds. This is how all other stacking effects work in game I would consider it to be similar. It either effectively doubles cooldown on finger(8-15 seconds) or it does build the stack too high.

I reiterate the timer on this should be less than finger's cooldown or only apply it to aoe spells.

[danotmano1998]

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please!!!


Don't nerf heroic levels. Just don't.

Otherwise, this new proposal is actually WORSE than the last one.

[Vordax]

Stuff...

So why be a PM? A PM will mostly likely always be down 2-8 DC, so why go PM for that extra few points of DC? May as well go sorc, DPS everything and do the occasional wail at a DC similar to a PM after he killed 3 things.