Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Thrudh]

Just increase the mana cost for death spells.

That's not a bad idea either. Increase wail and CoD and implosion SP costs.

There are much simpler answers to this issue that we could try (SP costs, cooldown timers) than this new and rather complex Haunting system.

[Faent]

I can see that in the current state wail-fests are a bit OP. My last run of ToD on hard with my PM (which is on the good side of gear/build but not uber IMO) out of 98 kills I racked up 50. When one person out of 12 is responsible for more then half the entire raids kills that's a wake up call.

Let's also remember that you were probably assigned to kill Orthons, dogs, and some elementals. So it's not quite as extreme as you make out. That said, I have no problems with some kind of nerf to Wail.

The best suggestion I've seen so far is to place a cap on the number of mobs you can kill with one wail and increase the cool down timer. An SP increase would be too much to feel like a nerf on top of those two. A cap of say 6 mobs per wail with a longer CD would change wail-fests into well-timed, strategic coup de graces.

I prefer a slightly more nuanced suggestion, just for the heck of it (and because it's a little more interesting than a flat hard cap), but I wouldn't be opposed to a hard cap. My suggestion was to increase the saves of the Wailed mobs depending upon the NUMBER of mobs you try to Wail. This is a "soft cap". The flavor side of this would reflect the increased concentration required to kill more mobs simultaneously. Something like:

Wail 1 mob: +0 to saves
Wail 2 mobs: +1 to saves
Wail 3 mobs: +1 to saves
Wail 4 mobs: +2 to saves
Wail 5 mobs: +2 to saves
Wail 6 mobs: +2 to saves
Wail 7 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 8 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 9 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 10 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 11 mobs: +4 to saves
Etc...

Obviously the numbers can be easily tweaked. I would tweak the save boost so that the Wailer averages the desired hypothetical hard cap. I favor this over a flat hard cap because it will typically yield the hard caps average when playing at level, it will not pose a problem for a level 20 to run Walk the Butcher's Path and just Wail everything, and it synergizes better with the Magister Destiny which could situationally allow one to overcome some or all of the penalty.

[Thrudh]

But you've already said elsewhere, you won't be happy until all casters are just buffbots and holdbots; all divines lose dots and blade barrier and are only healers.....

I have never said anything of the sort.

It appears impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you. I'm sure the devs noticed that as well.

[Faent]

The level 25 max-geared PaleMaster has many other ways to kill mass numbers of kobolds in Kobold Assault than just wail.

Who cares, Thrudh. Let a level 25 PM play like an Epic Pale Master in Kobold Assault and use his Wail. It's no more unbalancing there than forcing him to play like a sorcerer and use Wall of Fire. If he wanted to use Wall of Fire, he'd be a Sorcerer.

[Voldomar]

The level 25 max-geared PaleMaster has many other ways to kill mass numbers of kobolds in Kobold Assault than just wail.

Please read again and think about what you've just written.
A level 9 spell casted by a lev 25 arcane in a lev 3 quest... and it's not effective?? If this doesn't make you realize how much this mechanic is borked I don't know what to say.

There's only one easy fix: remove the kill count. That's one of the few things that challenges got right.

[voodoogroves]

Great post... Explains it pefectly.

However, I think it's too complex and affects too many spells... Just increase the timer on wail and be done with it.

Or give us the 5/rest ability like Leap of Faith with a slow regen - I like that idea a lot since then you could spam wail 5 times in certain situations if needed (Might be abused though)

So many simple ways to adjust individual spells. SP cost, cool down, save bonuses for more targets IN THAT CASTING. The advantage of this is that you can continue to tweak individual spells that ARE a problem without unintended global hijinks.

In addition, I still don't think having enemy casters or defenders spawning with some immunity is that problematic. When the Orc dude summons a dog though, and that dog magically has deathblock, FOM, immunity to stat damage, etc. that's lame. Scale the chance to spawn with some immunity based on difficulty & level (and give orange a boost).

Frankly, I'm not opposed to BOTH. Doing both may take a bit of time, but would even have the possibility of being able to un-wind the silliness that is how stat damage, holds/dances/etc. work on epic content as opposed to the first 19 levels.

[eris2323]

I have never said anything of the sort.

It appears impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you. I'm sure the devs noticed that as well.

Why, did you again edit your post after it was done, to cover yourself - like when you personally insulted me?

We all saw it last time.

You snipe at me all the time; I'm not even sniping, just asking a few questions. I do recall you saying you weren't happy with any casters, they were all overpowered.

You're very good with threatening 'the devs' on people.

Threats. Insults. And then edit the posts later.

I see your modus operandi.

END COMMUNICATION.

[Thrudh]

The Haunting solution maintains the usefulness of the ability to kill many enemies quickly, but puts a damper on doing so too often, forces players to play tactically, and doesn't incidentally nerf a bunch of other characters in the process.

Yes, this part I like... but I don't like that the Haunting affects single-target death spells too... Limiting wail is a good idea.. It doesn't make wail useless, it means you have to be smarter about when you use it.

But if the devs want to keep Haunting, they really need to have it ONLY affect wail and CoD and maybe implosion. Stopping a palemaster from spamming wail is a good thing I think, stopping a palemaster from being able to FoD or PK at will is very bad.

[voodoogroves]

I prefer a slightly more nuanced suggestion, just for the heck of it (and because it's a little more interesting than a flat hard cap), but I wouldn't be opposed to a hard cap. My suggestion was to increase the saves of the Wailed mobs depending upon the NUMBER of mobs you try to Wail. This is a "soft cap". The flavor side of this would reflect the increased concentration required to kill more mobs simultaneously. Something like:

I suggested this earlier as well. There ARE spells that work like this already. You could also cap the # of mobs affected, and (because other things do this as well like Turn Undead, etc.) ensure the lower HD mobs get hit first.


Tons of great ways this can be fixed with existing game mechanics.

[Braegan]

Let's also remember that you were probably assigned to kill Orthons, dogs, and some elementals. So it's not quite as extreme as you make out. That said, I have no problems with some kind of nerf to Wail.



I prefer a slightly more nuanced suggestion, just for the heck of it (and because it's a little more interesting than a flat hard cap), but I wouldn't be opposed to a hard cap. My suggestion was to increase the saves of the Wailed mobs depending upon the NUMBER of mobs you try to Wail. This is a "soft cap". The flavor side of this would reflect the increased concentration required to kill more mobs simultaneously. Something like:

Wail 1 mob: +0 to saves
Wail 2 mobs: +1 to saves
Wail 3 mobs: +1 to saves
Wail 4 mobs: +2 to saves
Wail 5 mobs: +2 to saves
Wail 6 mobs: +2 to saves
Wail 7 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 8 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 9 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 10 mobs: +3 to saves
Wail 11 mobs: +4 to saves
Etc...

Obviously the numbers can be easily tweaked. I would tweak the save boost so that the Wailer averages the desired hypothetical hard cap. I favor this over a flat hard cap because it will typically yield the hard caps average when playing at level, it will not pose a problem for a level 20 to run Walk the Butcher's Path and just Wail everything, and it synergizes better with the Magister Destiny which could situationally allow one to overcome some or all of the penalty.

Indeed I was, but I was also wailing everything in the halls. While maybe not the best example one spell allowed me to rack up 50 kills while the other 11 averaged 4-5.

The system you proposed is interesting but would really hinder 1st lifers, new players, new alts without the best gear a bit too much IMO.

Alternatively. Perhaps something in theme with the wizards of Krynn. Where use of power magic impacts their health? Something like every mob caught in your wail causes a backlash of 10hp (random number) to your caster. Sure you can aura past it, recon after but it would make you think a bit more and check your health to see if you could survive the spell you are about to cast. Plus, it would amuse me to see someone rush in wail and go incap.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

We're still working out the details on this, and will then send it on to the engineers. Let us know what you think! Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

What do I think? I'm thinking about the handful of times I considered rolling a PM, and realizing that the only use for that PRE will be as a big green glowing button that says "I am a newb".

[DeafeningWhisper]

I suggested this earlier as well. There ARE spells that work like this already. You could also cap the # of mobs affected, and (because other things do this as well like Turn Undead, etc.) ensure the lower HD mobs get hit first.


Tons of great ways this can be fixed with existing game mechanics.

The worse thing is that if they implement Haunting it gonna be a bug fest: I'll bet it will trigger whenever a mob is killed by any spell at 1st, then after they fix that it'll affect all Dcs, then it wont stack, then it'll stack too much, then hirelings will go incap when their Dcs reach zero and so on.

It's a lot of energy to avoid a bit of work... I mean, how hard is to make Wail have the same timer as Implosion wit the same mob cap?

[Thrudh]

It's a lot of energy to avoid a bit of work... I mean, how hard is to make Wail have the same timer as Implosion wit the same mob cap?

Exactly... That seems like a good first step, then re-evaluate.

[evilgardengnome]

I haven't read through all the posts, so this may have been mentioned. This change will definitely hurt PM's, but more importantly, it will crush my poor illusion arch-mage. I enjoy my PK spam.

How about a multi-tiered cooldown. A cooldown for spells that land. A shorter cooldown for spells that land partially. And a very short cooldown for spells that miss.

[sephiroth1084]

It's not hard to figure that out. Wail is pretty much the only problem.

A lot of us already did this. Change Wail. It's really just that simple.

Circle of Death, and to a lesser extend, Implosion are similarly problematic. Mixing in single targets exacerbates the problem with the mass spells--rather than throwing a mass spell that kills some, but not all of the enemies, and then having to deal with them in an inefficient manner, you can quickly pick off the one, or few, that survived.

And they are a little problematic (the single targets), when you have a few high-HP monsters around, because you're still dealing with them quicker and easier than anyone else. It's just not a big problem there.

The best suggestion I've seen so far is to place a cap on the number of mobs you can kill with one wail and increase the cool down timer. An SP increase would be too much to feel like a nerf on top of those two. A cap of say 6 mobs per wail with a longer CD would change wail-fests into well-timed, strategic coup de graces.

There are a couple of problems with this...
Let's say you grab a group of monsters, in which are a caster or two. They are the most dangerous monsters in the pack, and most likely to fail their Fort save, but if you cap the spell and end up with 1 or 2 extra monsters (which, by the way, may somehow end up in the group even if you were careful about separating them to your desired number), you may end up not killing the things you want to kill, and not due to lucky saves, or penalties, but because of a random mechanic that you couldn't adequately account for.

Increasing the cooldown does the same thing as Haunting, except that you never have the option of using the spell again quickly, but with a lower DC if you were successful, or using it again quickly to try and get some monsters when you weren't successful. Haunting gives you the option of deciding whether you want to have a longer cooldown (wait for the Haunting stacks to run out) or use the spell again, either to make up for an unsuccessful first cast, or taking your chances with a lower DC.

Haunting gives us an option, a decision, while longer cooldowns remove decisions. And I'll note that Wail and CoD got significantly longer cooldowns...and still dominate. Meanwhile, PWK has an excessive cooldown and hardly gets used, so where does the balance lie? How much is too little? How much is too much?

I don't think Haunting should remain as first described...I think it needs a cap on the penalty, a lower timer for each stack, and should come with a reduction of cooldown for all spells involved, so that if you fail to kill anything, you can try again quickly, and if you want to, you can use a really weak Wail more often.

That's not a bad idea either. Increase wail and CoD and implosion SP costs.

Spell points aren't a very effective limiter on caster power, due to the prevalence of Mnemonic Elixirs, clickies, SP discount items and too-frequent shrines. Not to mention things like the Torc.

Unless spell costs go way up (100-200 SP per cast), the cost simply won't limit our spellcasting. Or, it will encourage everyone to stop using such spells and go with the far more efficient blasts. If Wail cost 200 SP, why wouldn't you just spend 50 SP to cast 2 or 3 AoE nukes that do the same thing instead? It might take a few seconds longer, but you'd gain a ton in mana efficiency, and would be able to keep killing for much longer.

[Beethoven]

Most don't acknowledge that there even is a problem, which is totally ridiculous.

You may think it ridiculous.
I think it is ridiculous to claim a Palemaster is so vastly more powerful than a similar geared Savant that it justifies a significant nerf to the primary strength of the Pre, as I find it ridiculous to claim the solo ability of Favored Souls are gimp compared to Necro-specced arcane.

Problem being blanket statements (aka "because I say so") are not going to convince the other side how necro-specced AM/PM are vastly more powerful than /other casters/. You look at the Achievements section of the forum and the most common classes still are Sorcerers and Favored Souls. There is a reason.

You have Sorcerer/FvS solo epic quests, zerg ahead and kill everything in their path, tearing into bosses like a monkey into cupcakes and no one pats an eye. The same people scream bloody murder though the moment the wizard kills stuff. You have to admit it'd be fairly easy to read some ulterior motive into that and that in truth those people are not really concerned about game balance, but just want their buff- and hold-bots back?

[sephiroth1084]

It's a lot of energy to avoid a bit of work... I mean, how hard is to make Wail have the same timer as Implosion wit the same mob cap?

Implosion could stand to work better.

I haven't read through all the posts, so this may have been mentioned. This change will definitely hurt PM's, but more importantly, it will crush my poor illusion arch-mage. I enjoy my PK spam.

Isn't the cooldown for the PK SLA longer than for the spell? The original Haunting proposal would result in your having to deal with the penalty for a short time. My proposal would mean you might have to deal with it for a second or two, or not at all.

How about a multi-tiered cooldown. A cooldown for spells that land. A shorter cooldown for spells that land partially. And a very short cooldown for spells that miss.

This is basically how Haunting works...

You have a cooldown of 30 seconds on Wail normally.

1. You cast Wail but kill 0 monsters. Then you use it again in 30 seconds at no penalty.
2. You cast Wail, and kill 1 monster. Then you use it again in 45 seconds (or less if the stack timer gets lowered) at no penalty.
3. You cast Wailt, and kill 10 monsters. Then you use it again in 3 minutes (or much less if the stack timer gets lowered) at no penalty.

HOWEVER, you have the option in examples 2 and 3 of recasting Wail sometime closer to the standard cooldown of 30 seconds, but with a penalty to your DC. That's your option.

Yes, a cooldown for just Wail wouldn't affect your other spells, but that part is what needs some tweaking. Maybe the Haunting stacks only apply to the spell that generated them...you get Haunting on Wail when you use Wail, CoD when you use CoD. Actually, that makes more sense, and means that the single-target insta-kills don't suffer so much.

[sephiroth1084]

You may think it ridiculous.
I think it is ridiculous to claim a Palemaster is so vastly more powerful than a similar geared Savant that it justifies a significant nerf to the primary strength of the Pre, as I find it ridiculous to claim the solo ability of Favored Souls are gimp compared to Necro-specced arcane.

Problem being blanket statements (aka "because I say so") are not going to convince the other side how necro-specced AM/PM are vastly more powerful than /other casters/. You look at the Achievements section of the forum and the most common classes still are Sorcerers and Favored Souls. There is a reason.

You have Sorcerer/FvS solo epic quests, zerg ahead and kill everything in their path, tearing into bosses like a monkey into cupcakes and no one pats an eye. The same people scream bloody murder though the moment the wizard kills stuff. You have to admit it'd be fairly easy to read some ulterior motive into that and that in truth those people are not really concerned about game balance, but just want their buff- and hold-bots back?

The work differently. The sorcerers and favored souls are using damage, which "stacks" with melees. They work together. Necromancers work on their own. If a player does 90% of a monster's HP in damage, a blaster can finish it off, where the combined effort mattered, while a Necromancer can do so where that 90% was totally irrelevant.

In any case, that is beside the point. You MISSED the point. The DEVELOPERS quite clearly feel there is a problem, and have felt that way for a long time, as evidenced by the fact that we got blanket immunity to death spells in epic content for the first year or so that it was out, and continue to get that same immunity in epic challenges, despite player outcry that it is not enjoyable to have that, and that it penalizes not just Necromancers, but also Assassins and monks, among others.

Claiming there isn't a problem is just putting blinders on. It's not helpful. You can cry from the rooftops all day and night that there is no problem, but the developers aren't going to agree, no matter how many people agree with you. The fact that it isn't just the developers, but also players who play instakilling casters merely reinforces the ignorance of your stance.

[sephiroth1084]

Consider having Haunting only apply to the spell that triggers it.
If you Wail 10 monsters, Wail would gain 10 stacks that last for X seconds, but would not affect your other spells.

If you Circle of Death the remaining 5 monsters afterward, you would gain 5 stacks on CoD that last for X-5 seconds.

If you really want them all tied together, perhaps use the above, but have stacks on one spell add 1 second per stack to your other spells when they gain a stack.

So, if you Wail 10 monsters, Wail has 10 stacks for X seconds.
You could then Finger one monster, with no Haunting stack. If you kill it, you gain 1 stack for (X/10)+10 seconds.

I still feel that the penalty should be -1 to your DCs per stack, should last for only 6 or 8 seconds, and should have a hard cap at 10 stacks.

[Braegan]

1. You cast Wail but kill 0 monsters. Then you use it again in 30 seconds at no penalty.
2. You cast Wail, and kill 1 monster. Then you use it again in 45 seconds (or less if the stack timer gets lowered) at no penalty.
3. You cast Wailt, and kill 10 monsters. Then you use it again in 3 minutes (or much less if the stack timer gets lowered) at no penalty.

HOWEVER, you have the option in examples 2 and 3 of recasting Wail sometime closer to the standard cooldown of 30 seconds, but with a penalty to your DC. That's your option.

Yes, a cooldown for just Wail wouldn't affect your other spells, but that part is what needs some tweaking. Maybe the Haunting stacks only apply to the spell that generated them...you get Haunting on Wail when you use Wail, CoD when you use CoD. Actually, that makes more sense, and means that the single-target insta-kills don't suffer so much.

Well yes your right you do have the option of casting wail again sooner. But with haunting debuff it appears 9 out of 10 times that would just be a waste of sp. So I don't really consider that an option, or more likely an option that is just fruitless. Might as well just have a hard capped CD than a false sense that you can recast it sooner because unless they roll a 1 they are gonna make their save with your de-buff in effect.

I dunno, the more I think about it. The more I like the idea of a physical backlash for casting aoe insta-kills. If the number of HP is right, it would slow down spam wailing, would make you more aware of your HP before you cast, but wouldn't cripple the ability of a necromancer and wouldn't be easily bypassed my the many means of regaining sp.