Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[eris2323]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about things too.

I won't claim to speak for anyone else here, but this is how I feel, and I am going to here and now speak it bluntly:

80% of the joy I get out of playing my wizard is not questing, or adventure, or the challenge of the game. The vast majority of my joy for that character is knowing that the 6 years I have put into TR'ing him, gearing him out, and coming up with the perfect character build have made him so powerful that he is able to trivialize 80% or so of the game's content.

That's right. I said it. I love having my super badass. The challenge that I enjoyed in this was the journey to reaching that point of capability - not the challenge of the gameplay.

Now, this is what I want to know. Some folks claim that a powerful PM trivializes alot of gameplay, and can potentially make that gameplay unfun for others by effectively handling the quest all on their own. Those are fairly reasonable views, but to those views I say this:

You don't have to group with those characters.

If a well built and geared PM is ruining your fun questing, don't group with them. It's really that simple. Or when they join your pug, tell them you like to take your time and enjoy the quest and participate heavily in it. If they don't want to be part of that, let them find another group.

No other player can ruin your fun. Only you are responsible for your fun. You have complete control over it. Between squelch and simply not grouping with someone, other people have absolutely no ability to impact your gameplay at all unless you allow them too.

Perhaps their needs to be an adjustment. That is not an easy point to discern or find a solution too. But if an adjustment occurs, don't do it for the wrong reasons. Make sure it is what the game needs to grow, and not what the players need to feel like they do more than smash crates. They already have full control over that issue.

And whatever you do, do not trivialize the great effort and years of time that some folks have put into making their characters unique and capable. That goes as much for the AC changes as the insta death issues.

Exactly.

Here, here.

Punishment for our dedication to excellence.

You could just, I dunno.... not run with me.... if I trivialize things for you.

I also singlehandedly raise whole parties from the dead so that we don't fail, when things go pear shaped.

I'll stop doing that too. Enjoy that ride in my backpack, folks.

[Voldomar]

I cannot express enough how awful I think Punishing players more the better they are is.
Players should NOT be punished for TRing multiple times to build up their Spell Penn.. Their DC's... Accumulating the best gear they can for their Casters....

The same can be said about AC revamp. Diminishing returns.
It's like saying: don't strive for excellence in anything that's not straight dps in DDO
The tendency to periodically punish people that have worked hard on their toons is a bad game design for a MMO. If you have nothing to strive for ( besides the dps race ), good chances are you're not going to stick around for long.

[maddmatt70]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about things too.

I won't claim to speak for anyone else here, but this is how I feel, and I am going to here and now speak it bluntly:

80% of the joy I get out of playing my wizard is not questing, or adventure, or the challenge of the game. The vast majority of my joy for that character is knowing that the 6 years I have put into TR'ing him, gearing him out, and coming up with the perfect character build have made him so powerful that he is able to trivialize 80% or so of the game's content.

That's right. I said it. I love having my super badass. The challenge that I enjoyed in this was the journey to reaching that point of capability - not the challenge of the gameplay.

Now, this is what I want to know. Some folks claim that a powerful PM trivializes alot of gameplay, and can potentially make that gameplay unfun for others by effectively handling the quest all on their own. Those are fairly reasonable views, but to those views I say this:

You don't have to group with those characters.

If a well built and geared PM is ruining your fun questing, don't group with them. It's really that simple. Or when they join your pug, tell them you like to take your time and enjoy the quest and participate heavily in it. If they don't want to be part of that, let them find another group.

No other player can ruin your fun. Only you are responsible for your fun. You have complete control over it. Between squelch and simply not grouping with someone, other people have absolutely no ability to impact your gameplay at all unless you allow them too.

Perhaps their needs to be an adjustment. That is not an easy point to discern or find a solution too. But if an adjustment occurs, don't do it for the wrong reasons. Make sure it is what the game needs to grow, and not what the players need to feel like they do more than smash crates. They already have full control over that issue.

And whatever you do, do not trivialize the great effort and years of time that some folks have put into making their characters unique and capable. That goes as much for the AC changes as the insta death issues.

Your right we do not have to group with your "badass" pm so my question for you is will it be fun to just play by yourself? I mean in the end go solo something while we have fun in a group setting without insta-killers and see how much fun you have playing the game by yourself. I understand all the work and such and have several lives on my cleric for insta-kill purposes and regret that she got nerfed, but the game will be better with some sort of insta kill nerf and lead to more people playing ddo. What the right nerf is Turbine will have to figure out.

[eris2323]

Your right we do not have to group with your "badass" pm so my question for you is will it be fun to just play by yourself? I mean in the end go solo something while we have fun in a group setting without insta-killers and see how much fun you have playing the game by yourself. I understand all the work and such and have several lives on my cleric for insta-kill purposes and regret that she got nerfed, but the game will be better with some sort of insta kill nerf and lead to more people playing ddo. What the right nerf is Turbine will have to figure out.

Can you point us in the direction of the research that proves nerfing insta-kills will lead to more people playing ddo?

Cause from what I've been reading in this thread, nerfing insta-kills is going to lead to

A) Less players in general, as we go to games where casters can be casters, and we aren't punished for being good at the game

B) Less Wizards - Why be a wizard, when a sorc has so much more spell points, and if you kill with them, you don't get penalized? There is NO reason to ever take a nerf to a character based on kills.

C) Less Divines - They don't like losing their death spells either, and will take even more of a hit than wizards. So, say goodbye to your healers.

D) Less grouping - Because, well - if the casters are gone... you melees can have fun with your 3 hour coal chamber quests by yourselves.

[Schwarzie]

but the game will be better with some sort of insta kill nerf and lead to more people playing ddo.

Why?

[Karavek]

El I have to just ask bluntly are any of you DEVs even old school PnP DMs at all? If not that would explain SO MUCH of the trouble you guys constantly run into.

I myself always assumed the real reason behind TRing was the DEVs silent way of admitting in the end at high lvls in the D&D multi verse only those with magic rule and those without retire, die, or are enslaved for eternity with their soul bound to some object.

You could even say I saw non casters as the newb friendly classes, and casters for the vets who had learned this hard fundamental truth. I myself started on rogues, rangers, and fighters mainly and left wizards and clerics alone till I had a fairly good grasp on DDO and its differences to PnP.

The main one being in PnP after roughly lvl 7 no sword swinger if he is sane ever demands anything of nor talks down to those skilled with magic. Ah the need for open world RP PVP servers never ends.

Your also trying to encourage rat packing again, something actually very lame to ever take part in. Even when with a team, Id rather each of us have our own fairly equal to us mini moss to fight one on one, rather then one big boss for us all to tank and spank. That is Wowtard style not D&D.

Work on quest designs that make the party HAVE TO SPLIT UP, and each depend on their own skills, so when they reunite, and succeed, each feels truly heroic and not just part of a team that may not even have needed them.

You cant equalize casters and non casters in end game power. Its not possible without killing the reason to play casters in the first place. Likewise those playing warriors need to L2P because most cant. Over focussing in melee while ignoring range, expecting heals and buffs from other classes etc. Those are all gimpish wowtard play styles.

In D&D every character is thier own unique being who exist outside of the group. Those who NEED the group just to function NEVER last long. Most pre made modules have parts specifically to kill off player characters who are to much 1 trick ponies.

You need to balance end game around the weakness of mundane mortals, and simply accept casters are suppose to dominate.

A great wyrm dragon could kill an army of lvl 20 fighters and barbs. It only takes one lvl 20 wizard to put one down. THAT IS D&D!

[maddmatt70]

Can you point us in the direction of the research that proves nerfing insta-kills will lead to more people playing ddo?

Cause from what I've been reading in this thread, nerfing insta-kills is going to lead to

A) Less players in general, as we go to games where casters can be casters, and we aren't punished for being good at the game

B) Less Wizards - Why be a wizard, when a sorc has so much more spell points, and if you kill with them, you don't get penalized? There is NO reason to ever take a nerf to a character based on kills.

C) Less Divines - They don't like losing their death spells either, and will take even more of a hit than wizards. So, say goodbye to your healers.

D) Less grouping - Because, well - if the casters are gone... you melees can have fun with your 3 hour coal chamber quests by yourselves.

If they deleted the wizard class from DDO and just had bards and sorcs and took away implosion from divines and wail from sorcs the game would be better. Sad to say it but it is true. Do I want that no.

From day one after the spell pass change when I grouped with a party heavy in instakillers on any sort of non instakiller I had less fun. Well I made my own instakiller and played her and found out that I had more fun playing my bard without any sort of instakiller. Bards can do the job as can sorcs and the game is more fun.

[maddmatt70]

Why?

Because it sucks playing a melee/ranged/dps character with an insta-killer. It is not fun to go over and hit a mob and then all the mobs are dead with one button. It trivializes the game and makes it less challenging.

[Lormyr]

Your right we do not have to group with your "badass" pm so my question for you is will it be fun to just play by yourself? I mean in the end go solo something while we have fun in a group setting without insta-killers and see how much fun you have playing the game by yourself. I understand all the work and such and have several lives on my cleric for insta-kill purposes and regret that she got nerfed, but the game will be better with some sort of insta kill nerf and lead to more people playing ddo. What the right nerf is Turbine will have to figure out.

Fortunately, I have friends and guildmates who enjoy eachother's company. So playing by myself is never mandatory. It is a luxury. One earned through a substantial devotion of time, patience, and knowledge of the game and system.

A luxury, not a must. That is the difference many do not seem to understand.

[slimkj]

Wait, what? This is on all difficulties now, not just Epic H/E?

Oh dear. Another extremely disappointing change.

[KillEveryone]

Your right we do not have to group with your "badass" pm so my question for you is will it be fun to just play by yourself? I mean in the end go solo something while we have fun in a group setting without insta-killers and see how much fun you have playing the game by yourself. I understand all the work and such and have several lives on my cleric for insta-kill purposes and regret that she got nerfed, but the game will be better with some sort of insta kill nerf and lead to more people playing ddo. What the right nerf is Turbine will have to figure out.

Nothing really needs to be nerfed.

There are other options that would accomplish the same goal that doesn't include nerfing anything. It would actually make gameplay much more varied and less predictable.

Nerfing is stupid.

I also don't feel that nerfing insta kills is actually going to lead more people playing DDO. Your conclusion was just pulled from your butt. Where is your data to back up statements like that?

[eris2323]

If they deleted the wizard class from DDO and just had bards and sorcs and took away implosion from divines and wail from sorcs the game would be better. Sad to say it but it is true. Do I want that no.

From day one after the spell pass change when I grouped with a party heavy in instakillers on any sort of non instakiller I had less fun. Well I made my own instakiller and played her and found out that I had more fun playing my bard without any sort of instakiller. Bards can do the job as can sorcs and the game is more fun.

So your vision of a good DDO only includes one DPS class, all healers must be healers only, stand and serve your melee, and you always must have a support class for your melee (bard), and sorcs can't have any power at high levels cause it competes with your melee?

Not mine.

If you are having fun with your characters, that is great. I don't understand why people are whining so much the devs are considering removing all fun from MY character, because of that.

Just because YOU don't know how to make a fun group with instakillers doesn't mean everyone else is lacking.

[eris2323]

Because it sucks playing a melee/ranged/dps character with an insta-killer. It is not fun to go over and hit a mob and then all the mobs are dead with one button. It trivializes the game and makes it less challenging.

Then don't play with us. No one is twisting your arm MAKING your melee come along.

Or, become a better melee player.

[GermanicusMaximus]

What are you talking about?

You don't think that when an arcane kills mobs in a party, s/he is helping the party? I recall a number of times that I got myself (as a melee) into a tough spot and got my butt saved by an arcane.

This does nothing but tell us your attitude towards arcanes, not the other way around.

I kill things in quests as well. I also heal people to keep them alive. There really is no parity here.

Its quite apparent from the posts in this thread that there are almost as many selfish arcane casters as there are selfish melee players, which is to say far too many. Thankfully, I have to drop emergency heals on arcanes far less often than I do melee.

Selfish players would make poor divine casters, because they would prioritize their own glory over the needs of the party.

Any quality divine caster could easily play an arcane. The ability to simply offensive cast, as opposed to mixing offensive casts with heals, would make for a fairly relaxing game experience.

[voodoogroves]

I'm still struggling with the "here's a fancy new mechanic" when existing mechanics can be used to solve this.

In terms of instakills, why not increase the DCs and spell pen required to land them? Or, apply a penalty to the DC / bonus to save based on how many people are in THAT casting?

Why not figure out what the maximum DC someone can reliably hit and someone can burst, and use that to set saves, etc. for Level 25 epic?

[Voldomar]

Because it sucks playing a melee/ranged/dps character with an insta-killer. It is not fun to go over and hit a mob and then all the mobs are dead with one button. It trivializes the game and makes it less challenging.

Go on. Obliterate instakill altogether. You're going to have a hard wake-up when this goes live and nothing will change for the "omg casters are so op my melee cannot contribute" crowd. So what's next in store?

[Meretrix]

I'm still struggling with the "here's a fancy new mechanic" when existing mechanics can be used to solve this.

In terms of instakills, why not increase the DCs and spell pen required to land them? Or, apply a penalty to the DC / bonus to save based on how many people are in THAT casting?

Why not figure out what the maximum DC someone can reliably hit and someone can burst, and use that to set saves, etc. for Level 25 epic?

I know right, it boggles the mind. we have a great mechanic that works and the D&D system everyone knows and loves but instead, silly new systems are invented. I just don't get it.

[Rodasch]

Because it sucks playing a melee/ranged/dps character with an insta-killer. It is not fun to go over and hit a mob and then all the mobs are dead with one button. It trivializes the game and makes it less challenging.

Don't you dare use the "less challenging" card, that's the whole point of questing for all that min-max gear everyone's character is wearing or wants to wear...to make you more powerful, and thus make the challenges easier for you to overcome (that's what less challenging means).

Unless your idea of fun is to run around on a level 1 naked fighter character with all build points in charisma and wisdom and all skill points spent on repair and listen, attempting level 15+ content...then you are being disingenuous to claim "less challenge" is the opposite of what you or any other player wants.

What you should be saying is it makes you feel less powerful because you feel un-needed, and that hurts your feelings deep down inside...and that's what makes you have less fun. We all want to feel important, powerful, and heroic...and playing second fiddle to a multi-tr epic palemaster makes most people feel exactly the opposite of that.

It's not about it "trivializing" content. It's about it ruining everyone else's feeling of importance or their "self-esteem" about their own character's abilities (and sometimes their own abilities as a player).

If it were really about it "trivializing" content, you'd simply exclude all casters and divines from your groups, including hirelings, because having essentially unlimited hit points on a dps class (from healers in group) trivializes everything, period...as does having constant haste, GH, Rage, Blur, Resists, Protection from Elements, Protection from Evil, etc, right along side the dps, insta-kills, and crowd control. Come to think of it, the second time you run a quest, you can consider it "trivialized" since you now know all those things about the quest that allow you to pre-plan to overcome challenges and the surprise is gone. Everything in this game is trivial after the first time someone beats it and writes up a guide on the wiki.

Where were all the complaints of how trivial arcanes made content back when 40+ enchantment DC wizards kept everything in epics permaheld while your melee autocritted away with heavy picks and saw those wonderful big numbers fly by and the arcanes fell asleep at their keyboards?

[Kabaon]

Overall, thinking about this change, it's not entirely that bad.... if you treat the timers on the debuff like they cool down timers on Wail and CoD. We're already used to 30 second timers on our wails/cod, and this change really doesn't do a WHOLE lot to change that perspective.

Think about it this way. My 43 dc pm walks into a room, wails, kills 9 mobs but two survive. I continue on (or wait because I'll have 700 hp anyway) and leave the rest for the melees. Next room, do the same thing because I had time to wait for the neg dc's to go away. It gives the melees something to do and I am close to as effective as I am on the live servers.

That being said, I'd rather have the mobs do random casts of DW or Mass DW. There are already mobs IN GAME that do this. IQ and DD already have clerics that cast this, the trick is playing it smart and stopping them from doing so. Hint: FoD doesn't always work fast enough.

Honestly it shouldn't be that hard to copy that code that's already in game and paste it onto other mobs. Would I like to see this in all quests, yes, but randomly. Not every cleric is gonna prepare DW ever run. Switch up the spells known and cast list for the clerics and then we'll have more fun I think.

[funifulv]

I kill things in quests as well. I also heal people to keep them alive. There really is no parity here.

Its quite apparent from the posts in this thread that there are almost as many selfish arcane casters as there are selfish melee players, which is to say far too many. Thankfully, I have to drop emergency heals on arcanes far less often than I do melee.

Selfish players would make poor divine casters, because they would prioritize their own glory over the needs of the party.

Any quality divine caster could easily play an arcane. The ability to simply offensive cast, as opposed to mixing offensive casts with heals, would make for a fairly relaxing game experience.

Obviously you have never played an arcane caster before. Yes, you can just cast offensive spells on an arcane casters, but that wont be very efficient if that is all you do. Playing a offesivecaster/healer or melee/healer is completely different than playing a arcane caster. To be SP efficient, you have to use different spells at different times on different mobs.

Personally, I like playing my healers because sometimes I just like to hit stuff and heal people, feels like piking compared to mixing CC/Insta-Kills/Damage on my casters.