Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[AMDarkwolf]

I still don't get why, after all this time, with all these silly attempts to 'balance' it, you have not implemented some way to make it so that a perfectly healthy mob, hit with a death spell, don't DIE(It is a epic/elite mob after all) but it WEAKENS it greatly. Something akin(but not equal) to when we get hit with neg levels. We only have 20 total levels (or 25 with epic levels?) but losing 3-4 levels can REALLY hurt. that's 1/5th of our 'life' essence. Why not implement something similar to that vs mobs. AKA a wail hits a group of mobs, they all 'fail' teh first check(before immunities) and are all weakened by a 'fair' amount (Balance this on cool down of spell, cost to cast, level of mob, whatever) so that that wail, while not KILLING the mobs outright, make them MUCH easier to handle both for the melee's and casters. A wail followed by a few acid blasts would be better total sp conservative than a bunch of acid blasts, or multiple death spell attempts. And not only that, it would help the melee's (less to hit, less damage, less ac, less hp, whatever)

All I ever see is the 'it works... now it don't... oh it works again.. oh but we taking it away now.. oh here u go have more... nope, gotta take that away now' balancing cycle by the devs. Nothing really 'INTELLIGENT'

[Angelus_dead]

Is the current trend towards balancing melee with arcanes so myopic that is ignores the fundamentals underlying the entire genre (namely that at the highest levels, arcanes should in fact, vastly surpass melee capabilities)?

It's a myth that high-level sorcerers are supposed to be better than high-level fighters. That did tend to happen in D&D, but it was an admitted design error.

The devs would be fools if they tried to intentionally make one class type uniformly better than another at top level.

[Thrudh]

In DDO, as with most MMOs, the game is said to really start when you hit cap. Most people stay at cap, and leveling is just something they have to do.

I do not believe "most" people stay at cap... I think the vast majority of players are currently playing levels 1-19.

For me, I spend about equal time leveling from 1-19 and running epics/raids at cap at 20... and then I TR...

The game for me definitely does not "start at cap". I enjoy the 1-19 game very much, and have never seen it as a grind to get through in 30 hours. I would quit a game where gameplay felt like that.

[fco-karatekid]

Hmmm, another thought may be to enable the caster to cast multiple death spells with no cooldown for 20 seconds, then a 2 minute cooldown before they can do it again.

Wait, that sounds familiar...

[Postumus]

Well to be perfectly frank I think both ideas are the wrong way to "fix" the problem that they think exists.If someone tells me they are going to punch me, and my two choices are in the balls or the face, I'd choose the punch to the face. Both of them are AWFUL, but I'll take the one that sucks the least.

Because that's what these changes are doing: punching necro casters right in the balls.

+1!!!! Funny as all hellll and exactly right. great post!

[wax_on_wax_off]

4 suggestions:
1. No penalty to the first DC on 2 save checks (like phantasmal killer and circle of death). Circle of Death should still be useful even with a stack of haunting (for applying neg levels) and both spells would be hit too hard if both saves were penalised.

2. Reasonable hard cap. Either a max penalty (say, -10) or a floor (say, DC 30) or a combination of the 2. A PM should be able to keep instakilling through use of debuffs/appropriate targets if desired despite a haunting stack (though at some point it might be cheaper to use SP to nuke rather than debuff).

3. Implosion. Is the DC going to change during the duration of the spell? Maybe it should (and the spell should be adjusted accordingly such as doubling duration or something similar), maybe it shouldn't.

4. Halve the penalties and duration of haunting on hard or remove it entirely.

[guardianx2009]

Just a thought, how about just implementing a DC cap to instant death spells or just the ones deemed "too powerful"? Say maybe 40 DC cap or something.

[darksol23]

Correct.
-20 for 15 seconds, -18 for 15 seconds, -16 for 15 seconds, and so on.

Absolutely Horrible.

Any end-game PMs want some vaseline?

[Thrudh]

It is BS because it still restricts the use of certain spells and take away the full pallet of options that I would much rather prefer.

I don't like my options taken away. That is not fun.

You are on that "use other spells" bandwagon but you don't seem realize how much suckage that actually is especially when it is more like being forced instead of encouraged.

So which is it? You want a full pallet of options or is using spells other than wail "suckage"?

[GermanicusMaximus]

Every time a cleric casts a mass cure spell, they lose -2 wisdom?

Ahhhhh, feel the cleric love. There's nothing quite like dedicating your recreational time to facilitating other people's enjoyment, and getting sniped at for doing so.

Anyone wondering why there is a shortage of healers in this game, and why we need to do everything we can to make divine casters more desirable to play, need only read and ponder some of the comments made in here.

[KillEveryone]

So which is it? You want a full pallet of options or is using spells other than wail "suckage"?

I want to be able to choose.

Choice.

I don't care to be forced to use certain spells even if I do like using them.

It is all about my choice.

I get to choose if I nuke.

I get to choose if I instant death.

I get to choose if I CC.

It is my choice to decide what I'm going to use and not being forced by a stupid mechanic.

As I've stated, I don't mind the haunting concept. I'm not being forced to not use something because of a un-DnD-ish mechanic.

This use other spells bandwagon is getting old however and that is why I chimed in. For the most part, I do agree that the poster you are responding to is over reacting a little, but they may not like nuking. I'm not really that impressed with the wizard's nuking ability. It is there but it gets expensive.

[Vordax]

Meanwhile you can kill with your OTHER spells.

You have fireball too... You're a freaking wizard with a ton of spell slots.

Wailing every single room was stupid. Save wail for tactical nuke situations, use other spells the rest of the time, maybe even let the melees kill something now and then...

Not sure if you know this, but wizards have less spell points then sorcs. They also do less damage then sorcs, so damage per shrine is quite a bit less.

In eDA for example. There is already a problem for a wizard's SP to last to the first shrine in that quest. (assuming disco ball up 100% of the time too) Now with a severe limit on insta kills that this will bring there is no way to last until the first shrine, it will take twice as long for the melee to kill the mobs, costing an increased amount of CC SP usage.

(I usually pug the last 2 melee spots and take the first 2, won't be able to do that anymore I guess its time for MyDDO)

[Vordax]

Use OTHER spells... Flesh to stone orthans, kill the trogs in Shroud with something besides wail... Do you not remember handling portal duty as a wizard at level 16 with no PrEs?

Seriously, you powergamers should have no problems adapting, but you're always the ones who scream the most.

Am I a powergamer? I am not sure, I have a completionist, took me 2 and a half years to do it. When I started I was planning on being a sorc, but when u9 dropped a PM became a lot more viable in end game content, so at that point I started gearing up for my final life as a wizard. Now I am there and the rug is being pulled out under me for the primary feature of the PM (death spells).

I will adapt (or quit, having a hard time wanting to login now) by probably switching back to my original plan of being a sorc.

[Grace_ana]

Eladrin, please consider, or reconsider, this.

Adding another mechanic, particularly at a juncture that is already introducing a number of changes that have not been fully tested, is inviting unneeded strain on the game as well as the player base.

Are insta-kills truly "breaking the game" to such an extent that something like "hard to kill" or stacking debuffs are warranted?

Is the exsiting game architecture incapable of properly addressing the concerns that have given rise to these proposed changes?

Is the current trend towards balancing melee with arcanes so myopic that is ignores the fundamentals underlying the entire genre (namely that at the highest levels, arcanes should in fact, vastly surpass melee capabilities)?

Is this nerf perhaps aimed at a small minority of the game (i.e. multi-tr'd, ultimately geared necro-specced arcanes) rather than the majority (who cannot, in fact, roll-over content in such a tertiary manner)?

I asked the same question and am still waiting for an answer.

I'd like to see some data on this from the devs. I want to see why exactly these spells as used currently are gamebreaking, and how many players are actually playing at such a level. I am hearing a lot about what PMs are perceived as being able to do, and it is not at all matching up to my experience or the experiences of others.

Introducing a major new game mechanic based upon incorrect perceptions of people on the forum is incredibly poor design strategy. If that's not what it is, then I'd like to actually SEE what this is being based upon.

Finally, for those of you that keep saying, "But use different spells then!" - you don't get it. At all. Playing a palemaster/necromaster is a roleplay/gameplay choice. The purpose of that build is to master death spells. They have their weaknesses too - walk into an undead-heavy quest, or a quest where tons of light spells are spammed, and PMs are not nearly the demigods you think they are. Every build has weaknesses, including PMs. Instead of nerfing them into oblivion for being able to do what they do well, make changes to the actual content to make it challenging for everyone.

[Thrudh]

Not sure if you know this, but wizards have less spell points then sorcs. They also do less damage then sorcs, so damage per shrine is quite a bit less.

But it's enough in most quests. You really don't have to kill every mob. You can save SP by letting the melee kill a few things too. And you will STILL lead the kill-count...

[Grace_ana]

But it's enough in most quests. You really don't have to kill every mob. You can save SP by letting the melee kill a few things too. And you will STILL lead the kill-count...

Are you that bad of a melee player that you never get to kill anything when there is a wizard in the group? Because I have never ever seen that before.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

This is some really sophisticated thinking. Reduction in the power of the spell is needed, but this fine tunes things so that things are more generally playable for all, rather than the simple blanket smackdown. Well done

[danotmano1998]

After pondering this change for quite a while, here is what I've come up with.

This change IS a step in the right direction for epic elite and hard difficulty.
The numbers could use some work, but I can't comment to that as I haven't been able to playtest it.

Implementing these changes into heroic quests is a terrible idea.
End game performance versus leveling performance is VASTLY different.

In a full party setting, this is not so bad, but this will completely cripple the ability of wizards to solo.

[Thrudh]

Are you that bad of a melee player that you never get to kill anything when there is a wizard in the group? Because I have never ever seen that before.

Heh, yeah my melee get some kills even now with a palemaster in the group... But there has been plenty of times where there is one mob left in the room, with me and another melee beating on it, and the wizard will FoD it. Absolutely unnecessary.

If SP management is a concern (what a great concept! SP management becomes important again! I love it!), us wizards can play smart and not waste SP on mobs when the melees have it under control.

[Tharlak]

Because you still have your full benefits. But rather than zerging through all content, sometimes you will have to slow down. A little.

Seriously the whining that takes place here is beyond ridiculous.

This is funny, and ironic.

It's because of whining that they are taking this action.