Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Lycurgus]

I really can't understand why people can think this idea is great, the idea is incredibly bad. (I guess from a melee perspective it allows them to possibly up their kill count)

I'm in the "thinks it's great" camp. It does what it's intended to do: tone down the use of instakill without eliminating its usefulness or viability. And, it does so with some elegance. I think it will take some tweaking to balance the penalty...but the mechanism is essentially sound. It scales. It leaves real benefit to achieving the uberest of dcs. It doesn't require saves or resists being raised to the point that newer players are utterly incapable of playing as PM. And, it lets you use the spells whenever and wherever you want....without spamming them. Wizards are supposed to be tacticians, "haunting" requires tactical play.

It's interesting that a lot of the same players who were asking "why not just increase mob saves" in the HtK thread are the same ones demanding there be a hard cap on haunting. You'd almost suspect that they were planning to game the system, shoot for 60 or so dc on the assumption that would enable them to continue with exactly the same play style that's created the need for change to begin with.*shrug*

It might be more constructive for the players to start thinking about what they might like to see in the upcoming enhancement revamp. It seems to me there's a lot of possibility in terms of enhancing options for PM in particular beyond simply cycling through CoD, WoB and FoD. Like making those skele summons useful?

[anto_capone]

*sigh*

Why does Turbine hate casters so much?

*Rolls up a melee and then holds down the left mouse button for 18 hours to make Turbine happy*

[Thrudh]

This idea is more than a +1, its awesome, I really like it. It allows to use your instantkills but you have to use them more tactically instead of a mass bombardment. You still can take out enemy casters to help your party in almost every encounter but you can't take down each encounter alone. This really encourages teamplay without removing the tactical use of instant kills. And if theres a critical situation you can still have your big moment and wail a complete encounter, but after that you have to gather your strength again (some kind of magical exhaustion after such a powerfull spell is "realistic" to me). So you can either do quests fast with a group, or still solo it, but way slower because you have to wait until the debuff is gone.

I agree... I like the basic premise... but I play an archer monk who kind of works the same way with manyshot... I enjoy the skill of playing with a tactical nuke and using it at the right time...

My wizard was way too powerful before, all the time. I like the idea of having the same massive power, but only being able to use it occasionally, tactically.

That seems a lot more like PnP to me. Wizards didn't blast everything all the time in DnD tabletop, because they had limited usage. But when they did blast, things died.

This solution could be very good if we get the details down (I still think there needs to be a cap on negative DC and the timer).

[sebastianosmith]

I'll open with a general disclaimer; I don't play casters. But, it would seem to me that if Haunting is begrudgingly accepted by the community (after reading most of the extant posts in this thread) and the sticking point is how much of a DC debuff/cool down is acceptable, a reasoned compromise may be scaling based on mob CR and character level. We're talking about a battle of life forces here which can include certain entities of divine influence.

I know CR is a guess at best, but every mob has one and they tend to increase along with quest level. Haunting is supposed to represent the life force of whatever was death magiced taking a last bit of revenge on its killer. It seems to me that the more powerful the mob, the more powerful it's revenge (or that of it's deity). Conversely, the stronger the character the more able he or she would be able to resist said effect with will power. If Haunting is an acceptable debuff, why not base it on -DC = CR / ((Character Level / 2) + Wis Mod) with round up from 0.5 inclusive for CR seconds with an overlapping timeout? For characters twice mob CR level, no Hauntings can ever realistically occur given a non-negative wisdom bonus making this formula applicable to all content.

For example, if a level 20 PM with an Wis Mod of +5 lays down FoD on some CR 40 critter, that would result in a -3 DC for 40 seconds. Combine that with wailing a group of 5 CR 30 mobs and you'd be looking at a -13 DC for maybe 35-38 seconds and a -10 for at most another 5 seconds. The more death magic is used in limited time frame, the worse the Haunting becomes. However, it can never overwhelm a character for very long.

I know overlapping timeouts are a pain in the butt to code, but they do address the major concerns of the player base while still ensuring death magic is not spammed, well, to death. Stacking timeouts, while easier to code, are simply too harsh and present the possibility of rendering a caster useless for a majority of any quest.

Maybe I'm not understanding the real issues because as I have stated; I don't play casters. But what I've outlined seems reasonable to me.

[Vordax]

I'll agree with that though... single target install-kill is not a problem... mass death spells, yes... needs to be fixed.

Just ran cabal on elite on a level 15 PM, was alternating between PK and FoD with plenty of mobs left for the melee to kill. Won't be able to do that any more in 2 weeks. I guess it was fun while it lasted. Looks like the whining nerf insta-kill people won this battle.

Funny thing is, if I was on a fire specced sorc, the melees would have been standing around doing nothing in that quest. They would have all died to fire balls.

[Lycurgus]

The change proposed is only going to shift the type of caster trivializing things. Instead of a PM it will be a sorc.

Do you REALLY think sorcerors aren't in line for some fine tuning when the enhancement update comes out?

[Vordax]

I'm in the "thinks it's great" camp. It does what it's intended to do: tone down the use of instakill without eliminating its usefulness or viability. And, it does so with some elegance. I think it will take some tweaking to balance the penalty...but the mechanism is essentially sound. It scales. It leaves real benefit to achieving the uberest of dcs. It doesn't require saves or resists being raised to the point that newer players are utterly incapable of playing as PM. And, it lets you use the spells whenever and wherever you want....without spamming them. Wizards are supposed to be tacticians, "haunting" requires tactical play.

It might be more constructive for the players to start thinking about what they might like to see in the upcoming enhancement revamp. It seems to me there's a lot of possibility in terms of enhancing options for PM in particular beyond simply cycling through CoD, WoB and FoD. Like making those skele summons useful?

Haunting won't matter because I will be a sorc. I have capped 2 artificers and have seen how the pets work, I really don't think they have the capability to make them useful beyond a small distraction.

[idle1]

I'm not sure of the mechanics of assassinate since don't have one, but i assume mobs not allowed to know your there, if so I agree this should be fixed since it seems a its a limited ability anyway, or if not make it like that so a rog can only get one mob per fight maybe?

On palemasters I'm indifferent. After been called gimp for choosing to be a fleshy archmage the other day in a group cause I wasn't nerco spec and seeing 95% of wizards been palemasters, well something needed to be done IMO. Maybe not to instant kills like it is through this change seems more reasonable, but more make archmage more viable.

[Vordax]

Do you REALLY think sorcerors aren't in line for some fine tuning when the enhancement update comes out?

More than likely they will be. They already listened to one set of the whining nerfers on insta-kills, probably will listen to the nerf sorcerers whiners next.

[Nines9]

Do you REALLY think sorcerors aren't in line for some fine tuning when the enhancement update comes out?

Irrelevant. Any time they want to use a broken mechanic to nerf a class people will just switch to the new, best thing until they nerf that. None of this fixes the problems, it's just bandaids that end up creating new problems. I understand there's an issue, and it needs to be fixed. This is a less terrible idea then the last, they will probably settle on a less terrible then this "solution", and people will deal with it by "exploiting" cracks in the system to make builds that make the content trivial again, until the next nerf.

[Jasparion]

Then why don't they just remove PM's from the game, why waste effort coding something they don't want to actually have in the game?

Because you still have your full benefits. But rather than zerging through all content, sometimes you will have to slow down. A little.

Seriously the whining that takes place here is beyond ridiculous.

I really think if Turbine handed out an "I win" button which let you destroy everything people would complain that it still takes time to click that button.

[Tiamas]

Just ran cabal on elite on a level 15 PM, was alternating between PK and FoD with plenty of mobs left for the melee to kill. Won't be able to do that any more in 2 weeks. I guess it was fun while it lasted. Looks like the whining nerf insta-kill people won this battle.

Funny thing is, if I was on a fire specced sorc, the melees would have been standing around doing nothing in that quest. They would have all died to fire balls.

This is the reason why the new effect should be limited to epic hard and elite, where hitpoints are that high that "instant kills versus damage spells" isnt balanced anymore

[jbendoski]

Haunt is currently excessive. On live I can get my necromancer to 52 DC. I have dedicated everything to my necromancer and rare is the mob that saves against my spell. This also means that necro spells take up a lot of my spells slots. If they institute haunting then a large chunk of spell list becomes useless.

Example: I run into a room and drop web then gather the mobs into it, about 7 of them, and then wail. Naturally they all die. I now take a -10 penalty to my necro DCs and become useless for the next 1min. No Finger of death, No wail, No Circle of death, No phantasmal killer, no Horrid Wilting, No death to Undeath, all my minions from create undead, control undead, and command undead now break control and attack me. (If they insist on nerfing the instant kill spell can Pale Master at least get a free spell slot for their instant spells so can deal with the penalties been put on them?)

Example 2: As sorc I run into the room drop my web gather the mobs, throw a quick Chain Lit, Ball of lightning. Everything is dead and I have no penalties and can continue to blow my way through the dungeon (On epic just have to cast a quick hold monster for extra dmg and they die just as quick and with my wings the melee still can't get a swing in). I continue to be useful. As things currently sit in the beta, you can instant kill with most high end dps spells, but suffer no penalty so why the hating on the Pale Masters?

Possible Solution:This brings up the issue of an alternative solution: I propose instead of penalizing our DC reduce what the spell does in Epic Hard and elite. In Epic elite it will only take 50% of their total hp, so we would have to cast twice and be successful both times to instant kill the mobs, this turns our natural and current cool downs into the wall that slows the instant kills and maybe have the option for a true instant kill, like if mob fails it saves and rolls a 1 or 2 in epic elite then it will still die instantly instead of losing 50% total hp. (Maybe this could be used for Orange, and mobs as well but at lower percentages so we can continue to use our chosen spell school).

If you're going to take our Necro Spells can we have charm back? (2-4 seconds is a joke)

Nerfing DC does not just nerf Instant Kill Spells: Horrid Wilting (Necro), Command Undead (Necro), Control Undead (Necro), Negative energy burst (Necro), Create Undead (Necro).

[Aurora1979]

yea ok, I can sign to the Idea. I think its very good that you have clearly responded to the forums too.

The OP seems good, its half 2 here atm so I'm sure I'll have more opinions tomorrow but its a better idea I think.

Aiming for good Dc's on your wizard, basically being able to insta-kill but need to pace yourself if you over do it....

I've not argued that a... debuff (as we are on friendly terms ) was going to happen for necro's but hitting Dc's/ spell pen is the way to go. It leaves it as a target to aim for with our chars.... (EDIT: just re reading that, I also dont mean just whacking up the mobs save....I'm risking turning my edit into a waffle so I'll leave as is, good idea turbine)

The original H2K didn't sound like that. H2K was just an outright restriction.

[Vordax]

Because you still have your full benefits. But rather than zerging through all content, sometimes you will have to slow down. A little.

Seriously the whining that takes place here is beyond ridiculous.

I really think if Turbine handed out an "I win" button which let you destroy everything people would complain that it still takes time to click that button.

Its because of whiners like you that this stupid mechanic is being added. Its not slow down a little. Its slow down a lot. If I kill 10 mobs, I have to wait 2.5 minutes before my DC is back to normal.

In my prior post I mentioned Cabal, I was pretty much fingering/pking every time the timer was off, under this system I would need to stop and wait 30 seconds every 2 casts to clear the haunting, a level 15 caster with a -4 DC will be not be very effective. Of course the sorc just kills it all with one fireball.

[BDS]

Think it is too hard to comment on this without it actually implemented and trying it out. However it still feels like it is a little heavy handed.

1) -2 to saves for each buff with a 15 second timer seems a bit harsh.

Reduce the debuff to -1 or perhaps the timer to 10 seconds.

2) Will there be a hard cap?

6 sounds fair to me (if the -2/15 sec is not changed) would be a minute and 30 seconds to fully clear provided you don't do any more instakills during that time frame.

As far as the "haunting" aspect and lore I have a hard time imagining a lich being haunted by anything. Maybe you can work Lloth in somehow or the drow instead? Realize this is primarily being put in because of Pale Masters and instakills but how bout some items/Pre/fate choices to lower the effect of it.

Just saw that you are planning on implementing this in heroic levels as well. Please reconsider. Sorcs and Divines can just as easily "clear a room" during those levels, but I don't see them getting a debuff to their nukes for x amount of time. You are not creating synergy.

Think the best bet is getting something in place and letting players try it out however. The expansion release is a little over two weeks away, please dont rush this and implement a poorly coded or rushed patch to instakills.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Devs, thank you for reconsidering "Hard to kill". Please keep in mind that whatever changes you make also affects casting Divines!

One of the few fun parts of playing my caster cleric is being able to occasionally toss out an implosion, destruction, slay living, banishment, or dismissal. I cannot clear entire dungeons with them as all are single target except implosion and banishment and implosion only has a chance to kill a single mob every few seconds for a very short duration while having a very long cooldown.

Without instakill spells, Divine offensive casting is reduced to a very limited spell list.

• Cometfall is good.
• Flamestrike and Firestorm(annoying to target) both do fire damage to which many high level mobs are immune.
• Blade Barrier which most pugs don't take advantage of when you cast it.
• That leaves low damage spells such as nimbus of light and searing light which I believe caps damage at tenth level.

Yes, I still toss Greater Command and Soundburst, but occasionally it's nice(fun) to be able to kill something between healing, buffing, and crowd control.

We clearly need a complete list of spells to which this debuff would apply.

If the intent of the original change was to facilitate team play, it needs to be noted that divine casters do more to facilitate team play in this game, especially for melee toons, than anyone else. Nerfing divine casters discourages people from playing these classes, and is effectively a nerf to melee toons.

All divine insta-death spells need to be exempt from this debuff, unless you truly believe my cleric's inst-kills are trivializing epic content

(The consensus view is that burst divine casting DPS has been nerfed as well in the expansion. This poses the same impediment to team play as nerfing divine insta-kills. It deserves its own discussion in a separate thread.)

[Schwarzie]

It leaves real benefit to achieving the uberest of dcs.

Thats actually a fallacy. The only "benefit" of higher DCs is that you can bring yourself faster into the my DCs are to low realm.

They pidgeonholed Wizards into DC Casters and Sorcerers into DPS Casters and now reap the benefit of the synergies between those two styles and inflated HPs of Endgame Mobs...

[idle1]

Interesting thought since I realised this will apply to Single target spells too which I think it shouldn't, just increase cooldown to 10 seconds? You pritty much killed illusionist archmage alrdy but its even worse if this change comes in. Displacement been self only and now cheap pk getting heavy nerfed by this debuff if cast it alot. For pk since it has two saves, wouldn't it be better if the save penalty be half of say finger, so if fingers -2 make pk -1.

[Schwarzie]

Nerfing divine casters discourages people from playing these classes, and is effectively a nerf to melee toons.

Melee only Players expectations that the sole purpose of Divines is to heal them and therefore enable THEM to have fun is FAR more discouraging from playing that class then any nerf could ever do.

Apart from that Wings + BB is still perversely strong.