Is Epic Normal really supposed to be that easy?

[Isolani]

Why even bother grouping if you are putting the same effort in alone or with a group?

You waste time by actually waiting for group members, then at that point, you run the risk of crappy group members that increase scaling and really don't contribute anything.

Grouping is simply more detrimental then soloing for most content. If you take away scaling, like the game used to be, sure, you might be able to do something on solo, but its easier/faster with a group. Its actually worth the time to form a party, and you never have to worry about getting a player who slows you down due to increased scaling and contributes very little.

It's still easier and faster with a group unless you are just taking a bunch of dead weight players with you. Having 3 people in a quest doesn't give the mobs triple hit points and triple damage compared to soloing. Look at some of the insanely fast completion times people can get with a group of 3 or 4 people that know what they are doing...it isn't even physically possible for 1 person to do the quests that fast.

If you are talking about pugging quests, well, pugging has sucked in every MMO ever made and probably will take longer than just soloing which is why a lot of people solo if none of their friends are online.

[pHo3nix]

It's still easier and faster with a group unless you are just taking a bunch of dead weight players with you. Having 3 people in a quest doesn't give the mobs triple hit points and triple damage compared to soloing. Look at some of the insanely fast completion times people can get with a group of 3 or 4 people that know what they are doing...it isn't even physically possible for 1 person to do the quests that fast.

If you are talking about pugging quests, well, pugging has sucked in every MMO ever made and probably will take longer than just soloing which is why a lot of people solo if none of their friends are online.

When people refers to grouping they usually refers to random pugs, with high probability of dead weights, not to groups of friends/guildies with great knowledge of the game and great gear

[knockcocker]

It's still easier and faster with a group unless you are just taking a bunch of dead weight players with you. Having 3 people in a quest doesn't give the mobs triple hit points and triple damage compared to soloing. Look at some of the insanely fast completion times people can get with a group of 3 or 4 people that know what they are doing...it isn't even physically possible for 1 person to do the quests that fast.

If you are talking about pugging quests, well, pugging has sucked in every MMO ever made and probably will take longer than just soloing which is why a lot of people solo if none of their friends are online.

This.

You can't punitively force people to group who are not inclined to do so.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

One solution to this could to be make scaling MUCH less intense for epic modes:

Currently, you get mobs toned down to around 30-40% power while solo, depending on your class.

Could change it to:
Solo: 80%
2 man: 90%
3 or more: 100%
HARDCAP at 100%.

Unlike the current system which is:
Solo: 30%
2man: 50%
3man: 75%
4man: 100%
5man: 110%
6man: 120%

Which results in full groups facing monsters with stats (mainly hitpoints and damage output) four 4 times what solo'ers face.. But having more players doesnt make the players themselves four times tougher, so it actually makes it HARDER to group, then to solo.

I just wanted to post something similar.

But i can just quote Shade now.

This would be the best solution for the whole Scaling problem.

Soloers would still have an easier quest but groups would not be punished as much as they are now.

[Ranncore]

Pretty disappointing. Yes, epic quests are hard, and a very small amount of skilled players run them. I like that. After update, anyone with auction house gear can do epics. It really shouldn't be called epic.

And yes, basically every quest in the game is easier to solo than to go with a party. I hardly ever put up an LFM til I want to do an epic. I guess I won't have to do that anymore after the update. The dev's have a serious misunderstanding of fundamental game mechanics if they haven't realized that. Do you guys even playtest some of this stuff anymore? (I'm thinking - Undermine)

Seems like DDO just keeps getting easier and easier. It's rated 12 and up, I guess. Gotta cater to the whole crowd.

[slimkj]

Why even bother grouping if you are putting the same effort in alone or with a group?

For the same reasons people have socialised since we stood upright.

[slimkj]

why do we see more mobs that hit harder explicitly based on party size

Because there are fewer of you hitting back.

[knockcocker]

I just wanted to post something similar.

But i can just quote Shade now.

This would be the best solution for the whole Scaling problem.

Soloers would still have an easier quest but groups would not be punished as much as they are now.

Why are groups punished? It's still *always* easier in a group unless someone is either griefing or completely
incompetent.

The fallacy is that making it too hard to solo will then result in grouping. It results in people leaving, not grouping.
Add incentives to grouping e.g. +10% for members 5 and 6 etc. and make the death penalty individual rather
than group based.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Why are groups punished? It's still *always* easier in a group unless someone is either griefing or completely
incompetent.

The fallacy is that making it too hard to solo will then result in grouping. It results in people leaving, not grouping.
Add incentives to grouping e.g. +10% for members 5 and 6 etc. and make the death penalty individual rather
than group based.

that is just not true

Lets take a typical quest where you see how bad scaling is right now-sins of attrition.

If i go in there solo i can basicly dance inside 20 enemys and they will die from 1x acid rain.

If i go in there with 6 people this same 20 enemys will kill the 6 people in seconds(if they dont watch their health carefully and have self healing available)you have to be careful to not agro too many enemys at once.

So how did grouping make that easier?


And by the way making things too easy will also result in people leaving.

If people finish content too quickly,getting all items too fast and get bored they will leave too.

[sweez]

Lets take a typical quest where you see how bad scaling is right now-sins of attrition.

If i go in there solo i can basicly dance inside 20 enemys and they will die from 1x acid rain.

If i go in there with 6 people this same 20 enemys will kill the 6 people in seconds(if they dont watch their health carefully and have self healing available)you have to be careful to not agro too many enemys at once.

Sins is a horrible example because even with full scaling it's still easier to solo it on a bluebar, and leave other people at entrance lol. I love the atmosphere of the quest (grew up on Diablo, sue me), but claustrophobic corridors + cleaving mobs = bad design to encourage grouping.

[Gkar]

It has been easier to solo since dungeon scaling was introduced into the game. Every quest in the game is 'easier' solo then with more people. Some quests are faster with more players though.

Agreed. That seems to be ALMOST universally the case. I group for company, not for help.

[nibel]

One solution to this could to be make scaling MUCH less intense for epic modes:

Currently, you get mobs toned down to around 30-40% power while solo, depending on your class.

Could change it to:
Solo: 80%
2 man: 90%
3 or more: 100%
HARDCAP at 100%.

Unlike the current system which is:
Solo: 30%
2man: 50%
3man: 75%
4man: 100%
5man: 110%
6man: 120%

Which results in full groups facing monsters with stats (mainly hitpoints and damage output) four 4 times what solo'ers face.. But having more players doesnt make the players themselves four times tougher, so it actually makes it HARDER to group, then to solo.

I would be more lenient in casual and normal content. Myself, I think casual SHOULD be set to specifically favor soloists, and normal be set for duo to 4-people, Hard to 4 to 6 people, and elite never scales at all (so, aimed for full party).

Solo/Casual: 25% scaling per person

Solo: 50%
Duo: 75% (including non-goldseal hireling)
Trio+: 100% (Hardcap)

Normal: 15% scaling per person

Solo or duo: 70%
Trio: 85%
Quartet +: 100% (Hardcap)

Hard: 5% scaling per person

Solo or Duo: 80%
Trio: 85%
Quartet: 90%
Quintet: 95%
Full party: 100% (Hardcap)

Elite: No scaling

Any composition: 100%

This way, soloing is better fit to casual and normal (including tinkering around with the few quests that requires a party for lever pulling and such to be soloable on casual without any workarounds). Hard is doable to solo, but not as easy as today, and Elite solo is a true achievment.

[Isolani]

Sins is a horrible example because even with full scaling it's still easier to solo it on a bluebar, and leave other people at entrance lol. I love the atmosphere of the quest (grew up on Diablo, sue me), but claustrophobic corridors + cleaving mobs = bad design to encourage grouping.

Yeah, sins is a pretty poor example of "typical" quest, it's ridiculously melee unfriendly. Any combination of 6 arcanes/divines would destroy a hallway full of mobs in a couple seconds.

[Auran82]

Pretty disappointing. Yes, epic quests are hard, and a very small amount of skilled players run them. I like that. After update, anyone with auction house gear can do epics. It really shouldn't be called epic.

And yes, basically every quest in the game is easier to solo than to go with a party. I hardly ever put up an LFM til I want to do an epic. I guess I won't have to do that anymore after the update. The dev's have a serious misunderstanding of fundamental game mechanics if they haven't realized that. Do you guys even playtest some of this stuff anymore? (I'm thinking - Undermine)

Seems like DDO just keeps getting easier and easier. It's rated 12 and up, I guess. Gotta cater to the whole crowd.

Epic by its very pen and paper definition is levelling past 20. What the expansion is doing is exactly that.

Unfortunately, when the game went free to play, someone had a great idea to scale a bunch of (mainly old) quests to 20 in order to give those with capped characters something to do to keep them around. Instead of actually calling this mode "Extreme challenge" or whatever, they decided to call it Epic, I seriously doubt I wasn't the only person who thought and said at the time "What happens if they ever increase the level cap past 20?" and here we are. The term 'Epic' has been ingrained into us to mean something else and now they are trying to use the same term to mean something different (though to be honest, Epic *should* mean, post 20 questing, not the thing we have been using as endgame for the past few years).

What we need to accept now, is that 'epic mode' is no longer just to challenge the Shade's of the game, that now rests with Epic Elite, Epic Normal is simply a normal difficulty quest greater than level 20. 18 Normal -> 19 Normal in theory should have a similar increase in difficulty as 19 Normal -> 20 Epic Normal

[dubyprime]

Hard capping scaling at 3 or 4 person party is a great idea. Other MMOs have done this in order to encourage larger groups.

I'm not sure I agree with the various proposed scales from 1 to 3 party members, but I do agree there should be a cap.

Also you should consider XP bonuses for larger groups.


Sins is a great example. It is relatively common for a guildy to solo sins then invite people for the chests.
Weapons shipment too. There are quite often Weapons shipment elite, come open the chests I just soloed it LFMs.

[dubyprime]

Could you do the same on a Heroic Normal 19 quest?

Comparing Epic Normal to normal IQ, the difficulty seems fairly similar to me. The Hobgoblins in Von1 are easier to kill because of their lack of abilities and immunities. That is a product of the old epic system having been laid over older quests. I will fiddle around with Epic Von3 or something when I get a chance.

It is a hard shift to get used to, epic just means CR 20 quest.

[Galeria]

Yes, epic quests are hard, and a very small amount of skilled players run them. I like that.

Yep, makes you one of the cool kids. Too bad they need everyone else to keep paying to play...

[A_J_Rimmer_SSC]

I wanted to try out an Epic Normal quest in Stormreach to see how the mechanics are working on older content. So I took my rogue (lv 20 assassin) into The Tide Turns on Epic Normal to see how it would go.

My party:
Me - rogue 20
My panther - fighter 20
Klin Stegen - Cleric 19
Klin's Hezrou pet

If I try this on the live version's Epic, I'm dead in the first room. So I expect that will still be the case on Epic Hard and up. But on Epic Normal, the difficulty felt comparable, but maybe a bit easier than most level 19/20 quests on Normal. The only time I was really nervous during combat was when I got a green alert from a bunch of rats in the tight corridors just after the armory, where my panther couldn't get ahead of me to pull aggro. It wasn't a TOTAL cakewalk, but between the panther and the hezrou, I didn't have a hard time keeping aggro off myself, and Klin didn't have much trouble keeping us healed. He also had plenty of mana left, and didn't really need the shrines. Nobody died on the whole trip up the tower. I didn't ever get spotted by anything I was trying to sneak past, and I was able to do all the traps. My hide and move silently are 69 and 67, and my disable device is 50, for reference.

THEN WE GOT TO THE END.

I'm pretty sure the end boss is bugged or just isn't scaling. I don't think my poor rogue has ever been so impotent. He does 17D6+12 damage PER SWING just in sneak attack bonuses whenever he doesn't have aggro, and he was basically doing NOTHING to Ahraatz-Ri. My "party" wiped, so I ate a cake to res myself, brought everyone else up with scrolls, and came back with two more Gold Seal healers (store was buggy so I couldn't get a fighter). We still never got Ahraatz-Ri's health bar to even MOVE, even with myself, the cat, and the hezrou swatting at him for several minutes. I eventually just released.

So my conclusion on Epic Normal, at least on The Tide Turns:

The overall difficulty may be a little on the easy side, especially since there's a "casual" mode under it. But maybe not. I doubt a solo caster with a hireling would have much trouble with the combat, but an aggro-pulling melee might have a harder time. An aggro-shedding rogue would be dead FAST in the bigger fights without someone to keep the attention off them, but that's to be expected. The boss, however, needs some attention because that fight is grossly disproportionate to the rest of the quest.

[knockcocker]

that is just not true

Lets take a typical quest where you see how bad scaling is right now-sins of attrition.

If i go in there solo i can basicly dance inside 20 enemys and they will die from 1x acid rain.

If i go in there with 6 people this same 20 enemys will kill the 6 people in seconds(if they dont watch their health carefully and have self healing available)you have to be careful to not agro too many enemys at once.

So how did grouping make that easier?


And by the way making things too easy will also result in people leaving.

If people finish content too quickly,getting all items too fast and get bored they will leave too.

Not really 'typical' IMO. Anyway, all you're saying is that the same tactics don't work as well (anecdotally as well
I might add). Scaling is not 1/6th i.e. it's not linear.

[black_pearl2001]

I tested Epic Normal BoB to farm for a Fang scroll (got a Jidz instead). Took my epicly geared L25 Rogue (LD T2 ED), panther, Klin.

I probably could have completed without the hires and healing myself with scrolls.

I'm still newish to the game and haven't played every quest so often that I know them all inside out. Grouping usually means being dragged through a zerg fest so I don't really learn anything about the quest or story. I really enjoyed being able to explore the quest at my own pace and actually "playing" the game rather than just "grinding" for gear. For me, normal is the opportunity to look around, see the cool graphics, find the way to complete the quest and do the optionals. I really like that I can do that on my own (with the help of a hire sometimes). Once I have experienced the "normal" difficulty and figured everything out to my satisfaction, I can increase the difficulty to give myself a challenge if I wish.

Gear grinding and playing the max/min game are not the only ways to play this game. I like scaling. I like soloing to learn the quests. Sometimes I like grouping. I don't want to be forced to group unless I play an uber caster etc. I hate playing casters. I don't want to be loot penalised if I can only solo on casual difficulty.

Normal should be soloable by a decent player. Casual should be for newbies/noobs who are seriously under-geared or really still learning play skills. Hard should be challenging and Elite should be really challenging.

Part of my fun comes from exploring with a little internal role play. Enemies are a distraction/obstacle to my journey and not the purpose of it. I don't want to be struggling not to die constantly while exploring. Enemies are not the only challenges in quest for a new or less experienced player. How to solve/complete the quest without someone else telling you or showing you everything is fun too.