Is Epic Normal really supposed to be that easy?

[Ziindarax]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

Epic Normal is appropriately challenging for it's category, what the OP is actually reporting is probably a scaling bug. I ran several Demonweb quests on Epic Normal, and the mobs were often hitting me for 50-70 points of damage per hit; Epic Normal is probably broken in Eberron, and is working like Heroic Normal instead of the intended difficulty, though I have yet to test this (also, it seems I can never repeat the U13 quests ever again on Lama except for Spinner of Shadows).

It may be worth checking all of the difficulty settings in Eberron Epics to ensure that nothing is behaving like regular-level quests.

[Phidius]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

...

Have you considered using a different word than Epic... like say, Twenty?

The reason I ask is that many people think of Epic as "Truly Awesome Battle That Is Worthy Of Being Sung In A Bar For Centuries To Come"... you can say it's not about difficulty 'till you are blue in the face, and they simply won't hear you.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

Could you do the same on a Heroic Normal 19 quest?

I believed that I wouldn't be able to, but just for thoroughness's sake I took the same character with no ship buffs into Weapon Shipment normal solo (on Live) and let the first set of Mobs beat on me. I didn't realize just how much scaling there was. I always knew it was a lot, but I never took more than 10 points of damage in a single attack and died in 5-10 hits. The only reason they would be more dangerous than say the Trolls or Ogres in Von1 Epic Normal (on Beta) is that they attack roughly twice as fast and can close distances instantly.

IMHO Epic Normal (at least Von 1) scales WAY too much. When I could take a fresh level 20 with **** for gear, and do it solo, I think there is something wrong. That being said I'm almost definitely in the minority of player skill levels. I'll check a few of the more commonly run Epics in Eberron to get a more accurate picture, but I still stand by my statement.

I think Epic Levels should encourage grouping and scaling should be toned way down or even turn off across the board. Being able to solo a level 20, 21, 22 quest should be an achievement like it used to be, not the norm. I also agree perhaps you should find a different name to call Epic Level quests, sure in a few months we'll be used to it, but we will forever see Epics as what we currently have on Live.

P.S. Thanks for letting me poke you!

[sweez]

Some context:

Jyrja dies, a lot, in level appropriate quests. Allowing him to take a level 10 toon into 20+ quests would make people who play with him very very entertained. Of course now he'll just blame scaling

Still, make it so!

[FranOhmsford]

When, If it let me, I could walk into Von1 on Epic normal with my level 10 sorc or even a 10 melee and beat the quest with a single stack of cure serious pots, it's not hard enough. It is supposed to be EPIC, not, lets go to the bathroom with 5 ogres beating on me and come back and kill them all.

VoN 1 is a Lvl 8 quest, 10 on Elite that really doesn't translate to Epic - It's known as one of the easiest Epics for a reason.
I believe Only E-Snitch and E-BoB are considered to be easier by those in the know.

These Epics are routinely soloed on Live by enough players that it's not even considered an achievement to do so.

Some Players Solo E-CoF for goodness sake.


And I'm sorry BUT none of my level 10s would last more than 10 seconds {in the Arena} if I attempted to Solo ELITE VoN 1 - Are you saying EPIC VoN 1 is easier than Elite?

[terrenceknight1]

I've been running a few different Epic-Normal quests on my 20 Epic 3 Monk with Albus as my hireling and there are times where my hireling will die because he won't heal himself while taking damage in melee. or getting 2-3 shot by Drow spell-casters in EVon 3. So from my own personal experience Epic normal is a fairly comfortable difficulty for someone not decked out in raid gear and only a couple challenge items.

I will say its nice to be able to solo these quests on Epic Normal instead of needing to group up with anyone so I can do what I want on my own time, it'll add a great deal more playability for me.

Please leave Epic normal alone and buff up Epic hard/elite for people who enjoy a challenge.

[Shade]

One solution to this could to be make scaling MUCH less intense for epic modes:

Currently, you get mobs toned down to around 30-40% power while solo, depending on your class.

Could change it to:
Solo: 80%
2 man: 90%
3 or more: 100%
HARDCAP at 100%.

Unlike the current system which is:
Solo: 30%
2man: 50%
3man: 75%
4man: 100%
5man: 110%
6man: 120%

Which results in full groups facing monsters with stats (mainly hitpoints and damage output) four 4 times what solo'ers face.. But having more players doesnt make the players themselves four times tougher, so it actually makes it HARDER to group, then to solo.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

So did a few more Epics and even looked at the Damage in Heroic Elite, and I feel I can say with some confidence that Scaling, at least in some quests, Is totally borked. Ran a Small Problem and had a guildie hop in near the end to add to scaling and while the Orange Nameds got an appreciable increase in their total HP numbers, about 50%, Damage output remained nearly exactly the same. As a side note and since I'm not entirely sure the Bug Report went through, The final Fight didn't spawn and we didn't get an Epic Chest.


Also looked at Bargain of Blood, as currently even on Normal or Hard at level you tend to take a massive amount of damage, scaling is hugely effective in there. This on is Epic Normal solo, They did between 5 and 14 points of damage a shot and the archers hit up to 17+elemental effects

and this is Epic Normal with a Second person, damage increase seems about right, around 50% to double Damage as solo, about 8-19 points of damage with archers doing about 20 points+ effects,


And just for some comparison, Heroic elite Solo, which should have almost no scaling, therefore doing about the same as Epic normal with 2 guys, was doing a wopping 3 points of damage maximum per hit, with an 80% of the hits doing 1 point of damage.



Now I'm sure someone with more experience testing scaling will tell me whether this is in fact the correct numbers I should be seeing in a Level 7 Elite quest, that has always done an incredible amount of Melee damage. As it stands I think maybe someone should take a look into how scaling in Epic quests is effecting their Heroic counterparts as it seems there is some kind of an issue. Either that or I'm just embarrassing myself, which happens, a lot.

[sirgog]

So did a few more Epics and even looked at the Damage in Heroic Elite, and I feel I can say with some confidence that Scaling, at least in some quests, Is totally borked. Ran a Small Problem and had a guildie hop in near the end to add to scaling and while the Orange Nameds got an appreciable increase in their total HP numbers, about 50%, Damage output remained nearly exactly the same. As a side note and since I'm not entirely sure the Bug Report went through, The final Fight didn't spawn and we didn't get an Epic Chest.


Also looked at Bargain of Blood, as currently even on Normal or Hard at level you tend to take a massive amount of damage, scaling is hugely effective in there. This on is Epic Normal solo, They did between 5 and 14 points of damage a shot and the archers hit up to 17+elemental effects

and this is Epic Normal with a Second person, damage increase seems about right, around 50% to double Damage as solo, about 8-19 points of damage with archers doing about 20 points+ effects,


And just for some comparison, Heroic elite Solo, which should have almost no scaling, therefore doing about the same as Epic normal with 2 guys, was doing a wopping 3 points of damage maximum per hit, with an 80% of the hits doing 1 point of damage.



Now I'm sure someone with more experience testing scaling will tell me whether this is in fact the correct numbers I should be seeing in a Level 7 Elite quest, that has always done an incredible amount of Melee damage. As it stands I think maybe someone should take a look into how scaling in Epic quests is effecting their Heroic counterparts as it seems there is some kind of an issue. Either that or I'm just embarrassing myself, which happens, a lot.

Scaling on Live does not change at all from Normal to Elite despite Dev comments that this isn't intended.

A solo at-level Wizard takes about 52% incoming damage in most scaling-impacted content (about 72% when duo and about 108-120% with 6, these figures vary though as some classes contribute more or less scaling). This also includes traps (very noticeable in elite Chains of Flame and elite Crucible, both of which are quite difficult with a full group due to traps).

The way epic normal works, however, makes the spellcasting bosses much more dangerous than the melee monsters.

[McFlay]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Then you are probably going to have to check out 99% of the games content. Scaling pretty much makes the game a ridiculous joke. Before scaling I always had the mentality that someone is better then nobody, but with scaling I either just solo everything or play with my cousin, in which case elite streaking everything in our current lives thus far has been a complete joke.

The ones where we have had the most trouble are the quests we actually bother getting a full party for and get stuck with a couple pugs that are either newish or just awful players.

Its just totally lame. You don't even need any trap skills or evasion if you like to solo anymore. You just count on scaling to make most traps hit you for very unthreatening amounts of damage. Most mobs hardly even scratch you while soloing, and they die with very little effort.

Please fix the game by removing scaling. Soloing before scaling was never the most easy way to finish anything, or the most efficient. Soloing prior to scaling was more something to do just to say HAH! I soloed that ****. I know people complained about not being able to fill parties for groups, but removing any reason you have to fill a group for most content now doesn't make it any easier for those same people to fill parties. Its just a stupid concept any way you think about it. An ogres an ogre...what are they nice ogres now and decide to set weaker traps, hit me for less, and die more easily if I'm nice enough to go fight them alone instead of bringing some friends?

[slimkj]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

I think often people confuse "I can do this alone" with "(too) easy". That is to say, you can put in roughly the same skill/effort to either;

• contribute some of the oomph needed to kill the (HP/quantity inflated) mobs whilst in a full party, or
• kill them yourself when solo.

It seems to me that neither of these require any significant difference in skill or time, except that perhaps whilst solo you may have to manage a greater number of roles. That is, I don't feel I have to work harder in a full group, despite people's reservations about the changes in dungeons/mechanics that are applied when in smaller parties.

[McFlay]

Why even bother grouping if you are putting the same effort in alone or with a group?

You waste time by actually waiting for group members, then at that point, you run the risk of crappy group members that increase scaling and really don't contribute anything.

Grouping is simply more detrimental then soloing for most content. If you take away scaling, like the game used to be, sure, you might be able to do something on solo, but its easier/faster with a group. Its actually worth the time to form a party, and you never have to worry about getting a player who slows you down due to increased scaling and contributes very little.

[Auran82]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

I have to ask, do you have regular scheduled sack beatings for the person who originally decided to give current 'Epic' its name?

People need to understand, 'Epic' no longer means what it used to, 'Epic mode' simply means 'scaled to level 20+ or level 20+ quests' instead of 'extreme challenge' or whatever it used to say.

[My2Cents]

I think an experienced player with any kind of gear should be able to have the same chance of soloing 32 normal as they do now a 19 or 20 normal.

Trust me, first life with so-so gear, it isn't a cakewalk for those who have only run a quest a few times.

Why the anti-solo campaign?

[Shade]

I have to ask, do you have regular scheduled sack beatings for the person who originally decided to give current 'Epic' its name?

People need to understand, 'Epic' no longer means what it used to, 'Epic mode' simply means 'scaled to level 20+ or level 20+ quests' instead of 'extreme challenge' or whatever it used to say.

To add extra confusion. "Extreme challenge dungeons" still exist. You can only view the warning if you have hints enabled tho is one issue with that.

Epics on live are currently described as:

[Scraap]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

I'm confused. If that's a core principle, and not a general rule of thumb, why do we see more mobs that hit harder explicitly based on party size in weapons shipment and challenges for not one, but two mechanisms that discourage bringing along a buddy unless they're that much better?

Note it's also another reason why you shouldn't put nearly so much stock as you seem to from the latest designs, in solo accomplishments. It really is that much easier. Particularly for classes that use buffs, since that's up to 1/6th of a smaller portion of their SP off the top before they use it all on offense and self healing. (Not to mention the whole torc thing, since agro is split less, so 5 times the incoming rate of return for quite a bit less than 5 times the incoming damage.)

[Claransa]

I went into Epic Claw of Vulkoor-Normal to test how the new difficulty will be.

So now try it on Epic Hard and get back to us on your experience with that.

Multiple tiers of Epic difficulty were not provided to make the game harder and harder still. They were provided to balance the current Epic difficulty for people who like me, never ran Epics on live because the difficulty was too hard and I prefer to Solo (whether anyone likes it or not)

Epic hard is suppose to be what Epic is on live now, that was put out by a Dev. I suggest that you compare your previous experience with Epic difficulty to Epic Hard not Epic Normal.

[Jasparion]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

You should rephrase this to: it should never be easier to solo than a full party of equally skilled players.

Its often FAR easier to solo something than PuG with 5 clueless people.

Rephrased I would agree. But tell me if you have tried Weapons Shipment on Elite solo and with a group of 6.

[mystafyi]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

It has been easier to solo since dungeon scaling was introduced into the game. Every quest in the game is 'easier' solo then with more people. Some quests are faster with more players though.

[dubyprime]

[U]

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Cannith Challenges.

There are places where 2 or 3 manning may be better than 6 man, but as far as ingredients per minute go I find it faster to solo. Where 6staring is concerned this soloing is more difficult, but 6staring doesn't always produce more ingredients.

The obvious solution would be to increase the score bonus for various star objectives. You would also need to insure that certain objectives trigger the score bonus before the quest ends and give rewards(i.e. keep kobolds alive/ buy less than X time).

Thanks for listening. Sorry to be off topic.