Whirlwind is DA BOMB!

[LupusVai]

I don't buy that, at a pathetic AC of 44 I was seeing a decent amount of misses in Epic

Might be fairly tough to do so on a barbarian. With triple super quad rage thingamebobs enhancements all running got to be a fairly heavy minus to your AC. Always though the minus part to AC was kind of pointless before as you were never really going to be able to get an AC on a barb worth bothering with, but now i guess it does make a difference. I suppose it balances out the massive buff to strength and con they get by a little bit.

Which reminds me i should send my barb to lamania to try out the uncanny dodge buff. I hear that its pretty darn good while its running.

[maddmatt70]

I'm telling you I wouldn't even pick this feat on a Kensai and my barb originally was one.


Let's look at the prereqs in detail:

Combat Expertise - Requires 13 INT, which limits starting stats by forcing you to start with an 11 or 12 and to eat a +2 tome later. Reduces attack by -5 and raises AC by 15%. Okay it's an improvement over live. But since when has AC ever made a difference in this game? You'd have to invest in AC gear just to make this feat work, which usually means reduced DPS. And do I really want to be missing swings at a critical time? No.

Dodge - Grants a +3% Dodge bonus. By definition in a D20 system, anything below 5% is worthless. I guarantee that you will not notice the difference.

Mobility - Grants a +2% Dodge bonus. Ditto...

Spring Attack - Grants a +2% Dodge bonus. I've heard this all before...

Whirlwind Attack - Basically just your average Cleave, but with +4[W] damage and still a 5 second cooldown.


So what exactly did you gain by taking this route? +7% dodge and a mode that gives +15% AC in exchange for -5 attack. Neither of which amount to more than avoiding maybe 1/20 attacks. You could have just taken the basic Cleave and paid only 1 feat for it.

There's a bunch of other feats I would have taken... like 5 Toughness enhancements for +100 HP. Makes much more of a difference in practice.

So you are saying that they should upgrade the damage whirlwind does to provide more incentives for players to take the pre-requistes o.k. that works for me. Lessening the feat requirements does not work for me and should not work for you, but since you only care about Barbarians really shrug.

[Cetus]

So you are saying that they should upgrade the damage whirlwind does to provide more incentives for players to take the pre-requistes o.k. that works for me. Lessening the feat requirements does not work for me and should not work for you, but since you only care about Barbarians really shrug.

The major issue I have is the 13 int requirement for COMBAT expertise. Why should intelligence matter for a tanking ability?

Additionally, I'd prefer cleave and great cleave be pre reqs for the thematically appropriate whirlwind, and leave the dodge mobility and spring attack line to be a dodge based feat line.

This way, you maintain your feat pre reqs for whirlwind, becomes just a tad more accessible to non-fighter classes and doesn't force those same classes to be forcefed a higher intel base and dodge bonuses if they don't seek them.

I mean, isn't your total dodge bonus capped by your armor dex bonus? A fighter in full plate that isn't mithril may actually have some of those dodge bonuses become potentially useless if they exceed the dodge allowed by your armor.

Bottom line: Those pre reqs for whirlwind are unfair to non-fighter classes, aren't as thematically appropriate as a cleave and great cleave pre req line is, and intelligence makes absolutely no sense for a combat feat pre requisite.

[maddmatt70]

The major issue I have is the 13 int requirement for COMBAT expertise. Why should intelligence matter for a tanking ability?

Additionally, I'd prefer cleave and great cleave be pre reqs for the thematically appropriate whirlwind, and leave the dodge mobility and spring attack line to be a dodge based feat line.

This way, you maintain your feat pre reqs for whirlwind, becomes just a tad more accessible to non-fighter classes and doesn't force those same classes to be forcefed a higher intel base and dodge bonuses if they don't seek them.

I mean, isn't your total dodge bonus capped by your armor dex bonus? A fighter in full plate that isn't mithril may actually have some of those dodge bonuses become potentially useless if they exceed the dodge allowed by your armor.

Bottom line: Those pre reqs for whirlwind are unfair to non-fighter classes, aren't as thematically appropriate as a cleave and great cleave pre req line is, and intelligence makes absolutely no sense for a combat feat pre requisite.

Bottom line is you want your cake and to eat it to. Cleave and Great Cleave have nothing whatsover to do with whirlwind in pnp so thematically that is just hogwash. In pnp fighters wearing light armor were the characters that used whirlwind and I do not see any reason why that should not be the case in DDO. What in the world does whirlwind have to do with tanking?

Cleave and Great Cleave attacks in pnp were granted when you killed an enemy you could then do an extra attack on another nearby enemy whirlwind had a totally different mechanic not unlike the current cleave and great cleave attacks in game i.e. you could do an attack on all enemies surrounding you. Cleave and Great Cleave should get changed not whirlwind, but since the devs are set on the way cleave and great cleave operates then whirlwind should be made even more powerfull.

Rangers and monks can both get whirlwind as well relatively easily if they so desire. Rangers in fact with the current requirements of dodge, mobility and spring attack for tempest are pretty good candidates other then the fact they can not use both their weapons, but that would be a very cool thing to add to a prestige enhancement that when a tempest 3 ranger whirlwinds they can attack with both their weapons.

Edit: why do not they just make whirlwind use both weapons for dual wielders now that would make it more appealing to rangers and two weapon fighters.

[Cetus]

Bottom line is you want your cake and to eat it to. Cleave and Great Cleave have nothing whatsover to do with whirlwind in pnp so thematically that is just hogwash. In pnp fighters wearing light armor were the characters that used whirlwind and I do not see any reason why that should not be the case in DDO. What in the world does whirlwind have to do with tanking?

Cleave and Great Cleave attacks in pnp were granted when you killed an enemy you could then do an extra attack on another nearby enemy whirlwind had a totally different mechanic not unlike the current cleave and great cleave attacks in game i.e. you could do an attack on all enemies surrounding you. Cleave and Great Cleave should get changed not whirlwind, but since the devs are set on the way cleave and great cleave operates then whirlwind should be made even more powerfull.

Rangers and monks can both get whirlwind as well relatively easily if they so desire. Rangers in fact with the current requirements of dodge, mobility and spring attack for tempest are pretty good candidates other then the fact they can not use both their weapons, but that would be a very cool thing to add to a prestige enhancement that when a tempest 3 ranger whirlwinds they can attack with both their weapons.

Edit: why do not they just make whirlwind use both weapons for dual wielders now that would make it more appealing to rangers and two weapon fighters.

I'll give ya the ranger argument, but as far as pnp is concerned, i couldn't give less of a rats ass about it. This is DDO, this isn't about having my cake and eating it too, this is about commenting on a blatantly CRAPPY string of feats. Why should my dps melee invest in friggin intel to get combat expertise? As whirlwind is now, as much as I'd **like** to have it, I cannot justify 5 feats on any character really. Especially when I'm spending the 5 feats to just get that one ability I'm really interested in. I don't care at all about the other 4 feats in comparison.

[Aesop]

for those heavier armor wearers remember that Mobility increases MDB by 2

which means that the 2% dodge of Mobility matches up with the extra MDB

Also I'm not 100% on this but doesn't Whirlwind swing twice anyway? So its 5 feats for an attack that doubles up a bit.

Its kind of a Dervish thing where you move quickly and with arcing circles to avoid blows and spin through your enemies like a food processor


Aesop

[maddmatt70]

I'll give ya the ranger argument, but as far as pnp is concerned, i couldn't give less of a rats ass about it. This is DDO, this isn't about having my cake and eating it too, this is about commenting on a blatantly CRAPPY string of feats. Why should my dps melee invest in friggin intel to get combat expertise? As whirlwind is now, as much as I'd **like** to have it, I cannot justify 5 feats on any character really. Especially when I'm spending the 5 feats to just get that one ability I'm really interested in. I don't care at all about the other 4 feats in comparison.

Two types of people already are interested in the feat specifically stalwart defenders and people who really enjoy the mechanics of cleave and great cleave and want this exciting third option and do not think the defensive benefits of CE, Dodge, Mobilty and Spring Attack and +4 to hit while moving are a waste and also do not mind a 13 int which is not that hard to get to and also useful for getting Improved trip which is nice on a strength build.

I am not sure if this feat appeals to rangers or dual wielders because it only provides one attack non offhand (note: I have not tested this feat on a dual wielder in 5 years so unsure if this true but guessing it is), but if they made it more appealing to dual wielders that seems like a more worthwhile endeavor then making it more appealing to somebody that wants yet another dps feat without any costs. How many dual wielding offensive feats are there anyway and besides would be really fun on a ranger and cool on some two weapon fighting builds.

Another thing to do would be expanding the reach of whirlwind for monks and unarmed making it more interesting for them . In pnp this is actually a very appealing feat for monks but with the reach rules in DDO it is not so much.

[Stillwaters]

for those heavier armor wearers remember that Mobility increases MDB by 2

which means that the 2% dodge of Mobility matches up with the extra MDB

Also I'm not 100% on this but doesn't Whirlwind swing twice anyway? So its 5 feats for an attack that doubles up a bit.

Its kind of a Dervish thing where you move quickly and with arcing circles to avoid blows and spin through your enemies like a food processor


Aesop

Whirlwind animation swings twice (~2sec animation) with a small pause before attack sequence reengages <-you are losing regular attacks at this point
No mob EVER gets flagged for more than 1 attack!!
1st sweep attacks front arc (from initial facing)
2nd sweep attacks rear arc (from initial facing)
due to the way it works if you are moving/spinning or mobs are moving occasionally targets get missed. (nice move considering spring attack is SUPPOSED to allow movement)
No glancings (like cleave) apply, nor do twf offhand procs
Cleave+Gtcleave takes same time does 2xriders(str, weapon procs etc) and 2 lots of glancing attacks<-- this is WAY more damage for less feats
THF does better by sacrificing one of whirlwinds prereqs and taking power attack and cleave
Even TWF tempests do better by sacrificing on of whirlwinds pre reqs and going power attack and cleave shown HERE

Suggested changes
1/ Remove the double cleave style animation or make it attack all targets in 360arc on BOTH animations.
2/ Allow twf offhand procs on each attack (maybe with a +4[w]main hand 1[w]offhand bonus)
3/ all the above

[maddmatt70]

Whirlwind animation swings twice (~2sec animation) with a small pause before attack sequence reengages <-you are losing regular attacks at this point
No mob EVER gets flagged for more than 1 attack!!
1st sweep attacks front arc (from initial facing)
2nd sweep attacks rear arc (from initial facing)
due to the way it works if you are moving/spinning or mobs are moving occasionally targets get missed. (nice move considering spring attack is SUPPOSED to allow movement)
No glancings (like cleave) apply, nor do twf offhand procs
Cleave+Gtcleave takes same time does 2xriders(str, weapon procs etc) and 2 lots of glancing attacks<-- this is WAY more damage for less feats
THF does better by sacrificing one of whirlwinds prereqs and taking power attack and cleave
Even TWF tempests do better by sacrificing on of whirlwinds pre reqs and going power attack and cleave shown HERE

Suggested changes
1/ Remove the double cleave style animation or make it attack all targets in 360arc on BOTH animations.
2/ Allow twf offhand procs on each attack (maybe with a +4[w]main hand 1[w]offhand bonus)
3/ all the above

I like your suggestion but I would also adds something for monk reach.. This is a great feat for monks in 3.5 pnp because you could do like for instance trip attacks in all adjacents squares but here in ddo where they have a funky monk reach it does not work the same way when it should.

[slimkj]

I don't know the P&P rules to which you're referring, so maybe you're meaning even further than current, but monk reach was vastly improved recently.

[Stillwaters]

I don't know the P&P rules to which you're referring, so maybe you're meaning even further than current, but monk reach was vastly improved recently.

He means in PnP monk reach was same as a greatsword/other weapon user.
While we did see a "slight" improvement in monk reach in ddo its still nowhere near the weapon users.

Whirlwind in PnP was "attacking everything around you you could reach" (Active attack 6sec cooldown)
and was fantastic with an exotic reach weapon like the spiked chain /drool

Cleaves were STANCES "if you kill a mob you get a bonus attack" and only 1 bonus attack per round (think of it like a bonus bash on mob death with 6 sec cooldown)..
great cleave made this 1 attack for every mob killed(no cooldown)..
supreme cleave doubled the bonus attack with NO hp cost(+100%cleave damage to up the chance of getting more cleaves)

The fun part was combining BOTH cleave and whirlwind on a build.

DDO changed cleaves into a frontal arc whirlwind attack with 1/2 the animation time, then split it into 2-3 frontal whirlwinds...
and wondered why no one would take whirlwind anymore

If ddo took more from pnp rather than attempting to "improve" on it the buff nerf cycle would be a lot less needed.

[maddmatt70]

I don't know the P&P rules to which you're referring, so maybe you're meaning even further than current, but monk reach was vastly improved recently.

The other poster has it right in 3.5 D&D a greatsword user had the same reach as an unarmed attack user with improved unarmed combat; whereas, this is not the case in DDO. This really impacts the whirlwind feat which was a great feat for monks and as the other poster stated a tremendous feat for a spiked chain wielder because the spike chain threatens more squares then the greatsword and unarmed combat. For unarmed melee in DDO whirlwind is not that attractive because the game mechanics make it difficult to reach opposing enemies when whirlwinding. I would propose in lieu of the reach bonus the devs could make it that monk special attacks can be whirlwinded even something as terrifying as quivering palms.

I like the suggestions for two weapon fighting off hands and animations. The feat requirement should stay the same but what whirlwind provides should be bumped up and I hope the devs actually read this thread because these are great suggestions.

[Stillwaters]

I would propose in lieu of the reach bonus the devs could make it that monk special attacks can be whirlwinded even something as terrifying as quivering palms.

Love how you snuck that in there...

I think thats a little overkill TBH, but you have it right on monk needing better reach, there's no reach weapons in ddo, there shouldn't be any 1/2 reach weapons either.

[slimkj]

The other poster has it right in 3.5 D&D a greatsword user had the same reach as an unarmed attack user with improved unarmed combat; whereas, this is not the case in DDO. This really impacts the whirlwind feat which was a great feat for monks and as the other poster stated a tremendous feat for a spiked chain wielder because the spike chain threatens more squares then the greatsword and unarmed combat. For unarmed melee in DDO whirlwind is not that attractive because the game mechanics make it difficult to reach opposing enemies when whirlwinding. I would propose in lieu of the reach bonus the devs could make it that monk special attacks can be whirlwinded even something as terrifying as quivering palms.

I like the suggestions for two weapon fighting off hands and animations. The feat requirement should stay the same but what whirlwind provides should be bumped up and I hope the devs actually read this thread because these are great suggestions.

Ahhh. Thanks to you both for the explanations.

To be honest, if the unarmed reach was any farther in DDO than it is it would just look silly, so yeah these rules would have to be modified in some way I guess. Either as you've suggested or perhaps providing further damage bonuses for unarmed or something.

[Aesop]

Ok well then I do think that Whirlwind should double shot 360 with a better reaction time and allow for offhand, shield bash and glancing blows.

There should be a a toggle ability as well that applies the whirlwind to Tactical Feats like Trip, Sunder and Stunning Blow/Fist have this increase the Cooldowns for those feats by 5 sec or in the case of Ki Abilities increase costs by 50% while active.

Aesop

[Stillwaters]

Ok well then I do think that Whirlwind should double shot 360 with a better reaction time and allow for offhand, shield bash and glancing blows.

There should be a a toggle ability as well that applies the whirlwind to Tactical Feats like Trip, Sunder and Stunning Blow/Fist have this increase the Cooldowns for those feats by 5 sec or in the case of Ki Abilities increase costs by 50% while active.

Aesop

Shield bash comes from a feat - and is currently on neither cleave(s) nor whirlwind
Glancings are on cleave attacks - already potent for THF
Offhands are on nothing - whirlwind made logical sense to me
Either add them all to cleaves and whirlwind or leave whirlwind as taking up the slack and proccing TWF

I love your tactical feat idea though - you could use a spell meta like menu and place multiple "spin" attacks on a hotbar, one for trip one for sunder etc each with different cooldown shown till its sub-ability also reengages...

[Scraap]

Whirlwind animation swings twice (~2sec animation) with a small pause before attack sequence reengages <-you are losing regular attacks at this point
No mob EVER gets flagged for more than 1 attack!!
1st sweep attacks front arc (from initial facing)
2nd sweep attacks rear arc (from initial facing)
due to the way it works if you are moving/spinning or mobs are moving occasionally targets get missed. (nice move considering spring attack is SUPPOSED to allow movement)
No glancings (like cleave) apply, nor do twf offhand procs
Cleave+Gtcleave takes same time does 2xriders(str, weapon procs etc) and 2 lots of glancing attacks<-- this is WAY more damage for less feats
THF does better by sacrificing one of whirlwinds prereqs and taking power attack and cleave
Even TWF tempests do better by sacrificing on of whirlwinds pre reqs and going power attack and cleave shown HERE

Suggested changes
1/ Remove the double cleave style animation or make it attack all targets in 360arc on BOTH animations.
2/ Allow twf offhand procs on each attack (maybe with a +4[w]main hand 1[w]offhand bonus)
3/ all the above

One thing I would point out (tested multiple times) is that the windstance offhand does proc. Just... oddly. Almost guaranteed to hit the 3rd target in line most of the time if you wanna roll up a quick testbed monk. Offhand or glancing + switch it to the cleave animation should just about do the trick.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Does doublestrike proc on whirlwind attacks?

[Blank_Zero]

I'm telling you I wouldn't even pick this feat on a Kensai and my barb originally was one.


Let's look at the prereqs in detail:

Combat Expertise - Requires 13 INT, which limits starting stats by forcing you to start with an 11 or 12 and to eat a +2 tome later. Reduces attack by -5 and raises AC by 15%. Okay it's an improvement over live. But since when has AC ever made a difference in this game? You'd have to invest in AC gear just to make this feat work, which usually means reduced DPS. And do I really want to be missing swings at a critical time? No.

Dodge - Grants a +3% Dodge bonus. By definition in a D20 system, anything below 5% is worthless. I guarantee that you will not notice the difference.

Mobility - Grants a +2% Dodge bonus. Ditto...

Spring Attack - Grants a +2% Dodge bonus. I've heard this all before...

Whirlwind Attack - Basically just your average Cleave, but with +4[W] damage and still a 5 second cooldown.


So what exactly did you gain by taking this route? +7% dodge and a mode that gives +15% AC in exchange for -5 attack. Neither of which amount to more than avoiding maybe 1/20 attacks. You could have just taken the basic Cleave and paid only 1 feat for it.

There's a bunch of other feats I would have taken... like 5 Toughness enhancements for +100 HP. Makes much more of a difference in practice.

Smrti took all the Pre-Reqs anyhow, because of Tempest PRe-reqs and wanting to have meaningful AC while soloing stuff. If I can fit it in, I'm taking it.

[Stillwaters]

Does doublestrike proc on whirlwind attacks?

Whirlwind was so dust covered and unnoticed that almost NOTHING procs on whirlwind that doesn't come from weapons.

I expect now its a flavorful choice for defense builds, we will see more code action fixes on this dinosaur.