Why hard to kill hurts divine casters far more than arcane

[Chette]

"Epic monsters on hard and elite are now resistant against death if their CR is above 20. This ward is called “hard to kill” and acts as a death ward until the targets hps drops below 50% which removes the ward. The ward doesn’t restore after the monster heals."

While this change itself is being discussed here, I want to specifically look at the differences between divine and arcane spell casters, and how hard to kill affects the divine spell caster in a much more significant way.

Let us imagine a situation where a wizard or sorcerer is part of a group. They are working together to clear a dungeon and they come upon a group of 10 enemies. Some casters, some melees, some non-intelligent non-humanoids. In live the arcane might throw a circle of death, or wail, if off timer. Each of these creatures, if not death warded, would need to make a spell pen check and a save. Any that failed both would be killed instantly. Any that saved could be re-targeted with their other AOE insta-kill shortly thereafter, as they both have a cool down of 30 seconds. If used alternatingly this means a mass insta-kill every 15 seconds.

On live, this situation would function very similarly for a divine caster, but not nearly as powerful. With only one mass insta-kill spell with a 60 second timer, divine casters already have one quarter the effectiveness of their arcane breatheren. Frustrating, but accepted, since they are powerful in other ways. They might not be able to kill all 10, as implode doesn't attack all targets at once, but cycles through one at a time, until the duration is up, but they might be able to target 6 of them.

In the proposed scheme though, the gap between arcane and divine grows even further (as if being 4 times more powerful wasn't enough...). The reason for this is the difference between how wail/CoD target versus implode.

In the same situation lets say 7 of the 10 mobs are below 50% health, due to either melees or caster AOE damage. This might be a good time for a wail, so that everybody can focus on the remaining mobs. The arcane caster goes in, and is able to kill 7 of the 10 mobs (assuming they fail their saves).

However, in this same situation, the divine does not have the same flexibility to use implode. You see, implode does not attack all targets at once, like wait and circle, it instead targets one at a time. It does not distinguish between killable and non-killable targets, which is a major failing. If three of the 10 mobs are above 50% health, there is a 30% chance that implode will target one of these mobs first, and continue to attempt to kill the unkillable target, until the spell is over, rendering it completely ineffective.

This already makes implode very tough for divine casters to use in epics like chrono, where there are lots of orange named devils and abishai around, because of the high likelihood that it will get "stuck" on one of these targets. With this new change it means that no divine will be able to effectively use implode if there is even a single target within range with more than 50% health.

I propose that the single target kills, finger, destruction, PK, PWK and slay living are not particularly overpowered. They are useful for picking off mobs at a distance that present a significant threat to the party, and due to their single target nature and cooldowns, have a small effect on the overall "kill rate". Implode is similarly balanced, due to its extensive cooldown, and 1-at-a-time targeting that prevents you from killing mass groups of enemies.

The main spells causing issue in epics at the moment are wail of the banshee, and circle of death. Yet this proposed change does not single out these spells. It punishes all insta-kills with these blanket immunities. It provides no scaling, such that a higher level better equipped caster might have a better chance that a first life caster. I simply destroys one aspect of these classes entirely. It reduces versatility and flexibility, and it does so SIGNIFICANTLY MORE for a group that was already leaps and bounds behind their arcane counterparts in terms of offensive casting flexibility and insta-kill power.

[Jaid314]

if i'm not mistaken, implosion is not actually a death effect, per se.

did you actually check if "hard to kill" even blocks it?

[Chette]

if i'm not mistaken, implosion is not actually a death effect, per se.

did you actually check if "hard to kill" even blocks it?

Implode is a death effect and it is blocked by death block.

As "hard to kill" is a death block effect (confirmed by a dev) it blocks implode.

[Ape_Man]

I thought divines were just supposed to follow around barbarians and hjeal?

She's right on this, if a nerf was needed the specific spells causing an issue should have been nerfed and NOT the whole kit and kaboodle.

[Rizzyn]

I ran against hard to kill with my Lady. We have a pair of Favored Souls, Angels of Vengeance and on the ED Exalted Angel.

Implode is blocked by Hard to Kill; however, typically we would kite the mobs -- inside a tight area, as they're still adjusting the "leashes"-- through a Circle of Death several times. They would be energy drained, and then we would hit Implosion, and take them out. We would also combine Circle of Death with Blade Barriers, or even Destruction as necessary, as well as just Greater Command and laying into them with weapons.

It is not the same as the Epic Ward.

[Udalric]

Divines are not supposed to do killz anyway so step back and gimme moar hjealz!! :P

[Impaqt]

My Divine just drops a Blade barrier.... with the reduction in hit points, I'm more effective than ever.

Implode was always a Fun spell to use, but due to the cooldown and low rate of imposion, I never relied on it.

[Chette]

My Divine just drops a Blade barrier.... with the reduction in hit points, I'm more effective than ever.

Implode was always a Fun spell to use, but due to the cooldown and low rate of imposion, I never relied on it.

Exactly, it was already very underpowered when compared to wail, but it gets hit with the same nerf bat.

Wouldn't you expect developers to try and balance out spells and abilities amongst the classes instead of separating them further.

I'm not spewing doom and gloom here. I know my divine caster will still be very useful in epic questing. My point is simple. That this change hurts divine casters far more than arcane (and hurts monks and rogues even more, though that's not the point of this thread), which is why the universal implementation of these blanket immunities is a poor and unbalanced design.

[Udalric]

OP instakill spells should be balanced separately instead blind mass nerfing all of them. Just compare Wail and Implosion which is way weaker.....

[Impaqt]

Exactly, it was already very underpowered when compared to wail, but it gets hit with the same nerf bat.

Wouldn't you expect developers to try and balance out spells and abilities amongst the classes instead of separating them further.

I'm not spewing doom and gloom here. I know my divine caster will still be very useful in epic questing. My point is simple. That this change hurts divine casters far more than arcane (and hurts monks and rogues even more, though that's not the point of this thread), which is why the universal implementation of these blanket immunities is a poor and unbalanced design.

cant agree. I've always said Eladrin is the one that hates Divines.. But it may actually be MadFloyd....

At least we've had BB to have fun with. and we still do for the most part. THe spell Power thing mixes it up a bit... But it should be fine.

my arcanes... they are not happy at all.

[voodoogroves]

My wizard will respec to web, hold, prismatic and TTS. Or a more effective sorcerer.

My assassin will cry, but it's time for her to TR anyway.

I personally will mourn the continued lack of mob variability. They are all nails with different skins; by and large we just hit them with some flavored hammer now.

[The_Mighty_Cube]

OP will be moved into the central thread, stand by.