Scrap Manyshot

[LGHTNIN33]

Why not instead of manyshot doing sustained burst damage for 20 sec. and go on a 2 min. cool down, change manyshot to a one click burst on a shorter cool down like cleave, smite etc. But in turn for lowered burst damage change the way arrows work. For example have arrows follow a line similar to sneak attack dice.

At levels 1 - 5 arrows do 1d6 damage plus reg. bow damage/effects (arrow has 1 barb)

>>>------------->

At levels 5 - 10 arrows do 2d6 damage plus reg. bow damage/effects (arrow has 2 barbs)

>>>-------------[

At levels 10-15 arrows do 3d6 damage plus reg. bow damage/effects (arrow has 3 barbs)

>>>------------E

[Reesi]

Keep in mind, Manyshot is not a Ranger only feat.

Personally archery is for when I cannot get to something with my melee easily. Manyshot is for when I want to decimate something from range. This is not always by choice, but I went Tempest largely because I felt archery was too low DPS.

I don't think removing Manyshot is the answer, it provides a mechanic many people like (not just Rangers). What I think is Rangers should be given Bow Haste based on the amount of Ranger levels they have taken. This Bow Haste should have no impact when Manyshot is used. This leaves Manyshot untouched but buffs the usefulness of Archery.

[sephiroth1084]

No. The problems with archery need to be addressed directly, not through buffs to one class. After archery is adjusted so that it doesn't suck for 1:40 out of every 2 minutes, then we can get class or race-specific bonuses to archery that make sense in that context.

We don't need to give archery a buff through rangers, probably killing all non-ranger, non-Ten Thousand Stars archers.

[Zammied]

./not signed as a person who has made many rangers, both kensiaAA and regular AA removing manyshot would remove all the burst damage rangers do, and thats a major fun factor for me. Hitting something hard and fast for a short time is often better than being average all the time, plus it makes things less dull.

[FranOhmsford]

I like manyshot, I wish it were working on beta but what have ya.

btw... Ummm, my ranger's Str are higher than thier Dex... I just home in on enough to-hit be all. Ones an AA and ones a Tempest and they both use bows an' twf.

I've only read page 1 so I apologise if anyone else has already addressed this.

However:

The reason your Ranger's Str is higher than her Dex is because STR is the requirement atm.

I actually agree with the OP on this point - Rangers should be able to use Dex instead of STR for Bow damage.

Bow Str should be available to Barbarians, Fighters and the like {but not Casters or Rogues} - I actually thought it already was.

Monks and Clerics/Souls can take Zen Archery - This {if it doesn't already} should also provide a damage boost equivalent to having an equal STR.


As for Manyshot - I find myself agreeing with those people who don't wish for Bow users to be reduced to constant holding down of the left mouse button.
Keep Manyshot in the game.

[blerkington]

Additionally, I am not asking to reduce dps, I am asking to level it out so it is not so spikey. I am not sure why that concept is not getting through here. Manyshot loads all the damage into 20 secs. I am saying take all that same damage, boost it to compensate for the "over time" part of DoT and remove manyshot. Same DoT, just not as bursty.

Hi OP,

You may have noticed that several posters here, including a developer, do not agree with the idea of removing manyshot. I am glad of that because I think your proposal would amount to throwing away a very useful tool. In relation to your post quoted above, don't fall into the trap of thinking that people are resisting your suggestion because they don't understand. They do, they just don't agree.

Manyshot is so useful because it is a burst effect. It is a very useful way to deliver sudden, massive damage to one or more targets. That is good for killing a thing, or things, very quickly, which in my view is more useful than evening out damage over time.

Do you and your party want to be damaged by an enemy for some unnecessarily extended period of time while you kill it more slowly, or do you want to wipe it out immediately? Apart from conserving party resources, such as SP for healing by finishing a fight quickly, there are sometimes in-quest reasons why you need to take down certain enemies fast.

Manyshot helps you do that, a slightly higher but evened-out rate of ranged damage does not. Unless of course you are proposing to raise the level of ranged damage to be anywhere near what a melee can do, which is unlikely to ever happen because of the other advantages ranged combatants enjoy.

Another thing about manyshot is although it's on a timer, quite often we are not fighting a constant stream of enemies. There are pauses between encounters, and that is when your timer can reset. The nice thing about it the way the feat currently works is that it suits a variety of playstyles too.

If you are in a party of people who take their time questing, it may well reset from encounter to encounter. If you zerg, you make decisions about when it is tactically best to use the ability (not cycle it mindlessly every two minutes, while bemoaning low dps when it is cooling down) based on what you know of the quest, and do other things (such as move, melee, cast, accomplish quest objectives, etc) in between.

Manyshot is also very useful, when employed correctly, for shifting aggro of stronger enemies. That's particularly useful if you need to take control of a rampaging boss and move it to a certain location so the party can resume its normal tactics for beating that boss. Abilities like that can prevent quests or raids from wiping, and that is a valuable thing.

Without such a tactically useful feat archery will become simpler, less interesting, and less useful, at least in my opinion. I don't want to see that happen. I also worry that your proposal leads towards to a game world where there are even more kiting, uncooperative would-be Legolases who build shallow, one-dimensional toons that just will never put down their bows. Yuck.

Thanks.

[nibel]

Please bear in mind Many Shot inflicts a significant penalty to hit. Missing is a reality.

While true in PnP, in DDO Manyshot is just a burst damage ability. No hit penalty at all. In PnP Manyshot is a feat that improve mobility (allow you to shot many arrows while still moving) and Rapid shot is the DPR bonus (one extra attack in each full-attack action). DDO Changed a lot of how those feats works.

Since they added Archer's Focus as a new ranged stance for stationary moments, and IPS is a stance for mobility and large groups of mobs, just turn the Manyshot feat to a stance that allow you to fire 2 arrows at a time, and reduces your speed by 20~45% while the stance is active. This become the new "neutral standard" for ranged damage. IPS become a potential use for when you face multiple mobs, and Archer's Focus is the boss stance (since the damage boost is best than 2 arrows, and don't cut your mobility by half in an emergency).

The old manyshot burst damage would become a Ranger enhancement (probably on the Deepwood Sniper tree, since that's the "mundane" archer tree) and a Kensai freebie if they specialize in a bow. Monk splashes can still use 10k stars, and the rest should multiclass if they want it.

[Kawai]

Serious Suggestion after a lot of thought...
Arcane Archers are required to have a blue-bar for a reason.
The answer is IMBUING.

I think mana should be related and CONTROL multishot!
-Think about it!

[Thrudh]

Hi OP,

You may have noticed that several posters here, including a developer, do not agree with the idea of removing manyshot. I am glad of that because I think your proposal would amount to throwing away a very useful tool. In relation to your post quoted above, don't fall into the trap of thinking that people are resisting your suggestion because they don't understand. They do, they just don't agree.

Manyshot is so useful because it is a burst effect. It is a very useful way to deliver sudden, massive damage to one or more targets. That is good for killing a thing, or things, very quickly, which in my view is more useful than evening out damage over time.

Do you and your party want to be damaged by an enemy for some unnecessarily extended period of time while you kill it more slowly, or do you want to wipe it out immediately? Apart from conserving party resources, such as SP for healing by finishing a fight quickly, there are sometimes in-quest reasons why you need to take down certain enemies fast.

Manyshot helps you do that, a slightly higher but evened-out rate of ranged damage does not. Unless of course you are proposing to raise the level of ranged damage to be anywhere near what a melee can do, which is unlikely to ever happen because of the other advantages ranged combatants enjoy.

Another thing about manyshot is although it's on a timer, quite often we are not fighting a constant stream of enemies. There are pauses between encounters, and that is when your timer can reset. The nice thing about it the way the feat currently works is that it suits a variety of playstyles too.

If you are in a party of people who take their time questing, it may well reset from encounter to encounter. If you zerg, you make decisions about when it is tactically best to use the ability (not cycle it mindlessly every two minutes, while bemoaning low dps when it is cooling down) based on what you know of the quest, and do other things (such as move, melee, cast, accomplish quest objectives, etc) in between.

Manyshot is also very useful, when employed correctly, for shifting aggro of stronger enemies. That's particularly useful if you need to take control of a rampaging boss and move it to a certain location so the party can resume its normal tactics for beating that boss. Abilities like that can prevent quests or raids from wiping, and that is a valuable thing.

Without such a tactically useful feat archery will become simpler, less interesting, and less useful, at least in my opinion. I don't want to see that happen. I also worry that your proposal leads towards to a game world where there are even more kiting, uncooperative would-be Legolases who build shallow, one-dimensional toons that just will never put down their bows. Yuck.

Thanks.

This is a great post.

[oweieie]

1. Remove bow strength feat, all bows should normally use strength bonus like pnp
2. Give everyone access to returning arrows at level 1
3. Increase bow speed with base attack
4. Turn manyshot into a chance to double attack at the cost of accuracy
5. Accept the fact that casters do ranged better no matter how much you buff bow combat, so go nuts buffing bow combat

[FranOhmsford]

1. Remove bow strength feat, all bows should normally use strength bonus like pnp
2. Give everyone access to returning arrows at level 1
3. Increase bow speed with base attack
4. Turn manyshot into a chance to double attack at the cost of accuracy
5. Accept the fact that casters do ranged better no matter how much you buff bow combat, so go nuts buffing bow combat

1. That's Composite Bows - Composite Bows in DDO have no benefit. {Would be nice if that benefit came back}.
2. Agreed - 30% returning - Arrows do break.
3. No
4. No
5. Yes

[blerkington]

Hi,

Thrudh, thanks for the nice thing you said about my post. I appreciate it.

Take care.

[barecm]

Hi OP,

You may have noticed that several posters here, including a developer, do not agree with the idea of removing manyshot. I am glad of that because I think your proposal would amount to throwing away a very useful tool. In relation to your post quoted above, don't fall into the trap of thinking that people are resisting your suggestion because they don't understand. They do, they just don't agree.

Actually, the quote from the dev is: "It is not our intent to remove Manyshot. But it certainly does factor into our plans regarding ranged combat."

Which does not say we will not remove manyshot. It says they don't want to, but they may due to the second part of that statement. Or, they may keep it as is. That is my point as well. I would rather have it than not, but if it gets in the way of progress, then lets scrap and level out the damage so it is consistent (meaning higher dps than current non-manyshot dps) so that there is no 1:40 of suck dps. Also, I am not falling into a trap, I am trying to suggest ways of getting the devs over their fears of ranged combat... which they have stated numerous times about. Manyshot encompasses that fear. Read between the lines of the above post and you will also come to the same conclusion. I dont WANT to scrap manyshot, I just think it is the only way to get better ranged combat in the long run.

[Chai]

The subject is manyshot. The quote uses the pronoun "it" the second time. If you sub many shot back into the quote for the pronoun "it" you get:

"It is not our intent to remove Manyshot. But manyshot certainly does factor into our plans regarding ranged combat."

The ability itself factors into their plans regarding ranged combat, not removing it.

[barecm]

The subject is manyshot. The quote uses the pronoun "it" the second time. If you sub many shot back into the quote for the pronoun "it" you get:

"It is not our intent to remove Manyshot. But manyshot certainly does factor into our plans regarding ranged combat."

The ability itself factors into their plans regarding ranged combat, not removing it.

Yes, it factors in. So boosting the other 1:40 mins off manyshot timer cannot take place because of that feat's existence. Removing that feat removes that hurdle.

[ThePrisoner]

I dont WANT to scrap manyshot, I just think it is the only way to get better ranged combat in the long run.

Of course getting rid of manyshot is not the only way to get better ranged combat in the long run. Simply allow players to choose between manyshot and a feat that dramatically boosts ranged alacrity. If a player selects one of these two feats, they cannot select the other. Rangers would choose between manyshot and the ranged alacrity feat at level 6.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Of course getting rid of manyshot is not the only way to get better ranged combat in the long run. Simply allow players to choose between manyshot and a feat that dramatically boosts ranged alacrity. If a player selects one of these two feats, they cannot select the other. Rangers would choose between manyshot and the ranged alacrity feat at level 6.

Can't stack with 10k stars either, the alacrity that is.

The problem with archery is actually xbows, yes I see the irony, repeaters have basically BAB 11 manyshot built in so any changes to better ranged combat would make them far too good.

[ThePrisoner]

Can't stack with 10k stars either, the alacrity that is.

The problem with archery is actually xbows, yes I see the irony, repeaters have basically BAB 11 manyshot built in so any changes to better ranged combat would make them far too good.

Why can't alacrity stack with 10k stars? Is it a game mechanic or are you saying that if they stacked it would be too powerful?

The hypothetical ranged alacrity feat I brought up could be made to not apply to crossbows, just as manyshot doesn't apply to crossbows.

[Emili]

Hi OP,

You may have noticed that several posters here, including a developer, do not agree with the idea of removing manyshot. I am glad of that because I think your proposal would amount to throwing away a very useful tool. In relation to your post quoted above, don't fall into the trap of thinking that people are resisting your suggestion because they don't understand. They do, they just don't agree.

Manyshot is so useful because it is a burst effect. It is a very useful way to deliver sudden, massive damage to one or more targets. That is good for killing a thing, or things, very quickly, which in my view is more useful than evening out damage over time.

Do you and your party want to be damaged by an enemy for some unnecessarily extended period of time while you kill it more slowly, or do you want to wipe it out immediately? Apart from conserving party resources, such as SP for healing by finishing a fight quickly, there are sometimes in-quest reasons why you need to take down certain enemies fast.

Manyshot helps you do that, a slightly higher but evened-out rate of ranged damage does not. Unless of course you are proposing to raise the level of ranged damage to be anywhere near what a melee can do, which is unlikely to ever happen because of the other advantages ranged combatants enjoy.

Another thing about manyshot is although it's on a timer, quite often we are not fighting a constant stream of enemies. There are pauses between encounters, and that is when your timer can reset. The nice thing about it the way the feat currently works is that it suits a variety of playstyles too.

If you are in a party of people who take their time questing, it may well reset from encounter to encounter. If you zerg, you make decisions about when it is tactically best to use the ability (not cycle it mindlessly every two minutes, while bemoaning low dps when it is cooling down) based on what you know of the quest, and do other things (such as move, melee, cast, accomplish quest objectives, etc) in between.

Manyshot is also very useful, when employed correctly, for shifting aggro of stronger enemies. That's particularly useful if you need to take control of a rampaging boss and move it to a certain location so the party can resume its normal tactics for beating that boss. Abilities like that can prevent quests or raids from wiping, and that is a valuable thing.

Without such a tactically useful feat archery will become simpler, less interesting, and less useful, at least in my opinion. I don't want to see that happen. I also worry that your proposal leads towards to a game world where there are even more kiting, uncooperative would-be Legolases who build shallow, one-dimensional toons that just will never put down their bows. Yuck.

Thanks.

This ^


+1 for supporting what little leway we have in ranged tactics. Without some control outside the few buttons we have would make this game bery boring... I am glad manyshot is now working again on beta, it feels good and my rangers happy to be using thier bows again.

btw... Legolases also used Sindarin blades

[maddmatt70]

Manyshot should be an option not something ranged players have to have. Alot of players want consistant ranged dps and alot of players want more bursty dps options. Turbine should cater to both groups by making manyshot a feat option that people do not have to choose but which will reduce a players consistant dps by a %. Really it is a simple formula manyshot feat =-15% consistant dps or something to that effect.