How exactly are pale masters going to bring down mobs <50%

[Forzah]

Ok, how about this:

On epic elite you cannot use weapons and have to rely on your fist till mobs drop down to 50% hp.

Forzah-style reply: "It's not like barbs can't use fists.... even if you do X% less damage than a monk, you will still kill quicker if you can equip your eSos that last 50%"

Yeah, it sounds logic...

Unfortunately, unarmed barbs do about 80% less damage compared to monks, and with a weapon between 0-20% more, so that would lead to barbs being slower killers than monks. Wizards however, do only 30% less damage than sorcs, and kill instantly after that 50% mark, so they still have the advantage. Logic ftw!

[Ertay]

Unfortunately, unarmed barbs do about 80% less damage compared to monks, and with a weapon between 0-20% more, so that would lead to barbs being slower killers than monks. Wizards however, do only 30% less damage than sorcs, and kill instantly after that 50% mark, so they still have the advantage. Logic ftw!

30% less compared to sorcs? You mean the same sorcs who have an elemental pre, invest most of their ap in elemental damage and get a capstone that improves damage? The ones who have a significantly larger sp pool and cast faster then wizards do? Wizards are a good bit behind sorcs in the damage department, and their new ability to kill steal on a failed fort save doesnt exactly make up for that.

Also, you won't be able to hit stuff right at the 50% mark, you'll lay down aoes, dance around them, and when that last outlier gets to <50% you wail. The majority of mobs could well be at 30-40% then (throw in evasion and the disparity will be even greater), and you still risk failing the fort save. At that point, it would probably better to just finish them with damage, since you already invested in that and it is more reliable in general.

[Xyfiel]

Nah, we'll just be back to the olden days of drop a bb and kite kite kite kite. Too bad since I was planning a layout without any lore for BB but I guess I'll want the crits now lol.

Except for the large number of evasion mobs with high reflex saves.

[Cauthey]

I'm pretty sure that I'm unhappy with this change.

If the focus is to reduce the number of insta-kills in a quest, why not institute "Hard to Kill" as more of a mob proc'ing ability?

Pale Master goes into a pile of epic mobs. He casts Wail of the Banshee. A couple of mobs die. The remaining mobs have a "Hard to Kill" icon flash over their head, and now have some kind of persisting graphical improvement (crown, halo, whatever) showing that they have managed to proc their "Hard to Kill" ability, and will be hard to kill until they are down to less than 50% of their original HPs.

Make the proc rate 30-40%. That way, casters get to feel uber powerful with their insta-kills still. Albeit, occasionally. Melees have a distinct purpose, and are required for when "Hard to Kill" mobs are encountered.


Turbine - you guys have been worrying me as of late. You had gotten SO MUCH better and better about communication with the community. I realize you have a couple of things going on right now. But please... show us you're hearing us, even if its as much as a post saying "read by a dev." Thanks for all that you guys do!

[Alcedes]

I can only assume that those of you on here raging, "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!" did not participate in the closed beta. A lot has changed.

1) Due to the way spellpower applies, SLA's are no longer "cute". They are downright nasty.
2) Epics are not NEARLY as difficult as before.
3) Tanking is now easily done in epics. And highly encouraged.
4) Epic mobs hit much less often in melee and for much less damage
5) Epic mobs get hit much more often in melee and for much more damage.


If you want to run around and insta-kill things with a single "omg-i just killed 5 rooms of mobs all at once" button, you still can. Just do Epic-Normal. Leave the Epic-Hard and Epic-Elite to those who prefer group play.

How many of you read the notes and screamed dooooooooom without logging in and playing? I know a few of you did for sure. One in particular referred to the PM SLA's as "cute". If your's are "cute" then you need to re-evaluate your build. Mine are hitting upwards of about 300-400, and my aura is ticking for 70-110. Palemasters are stronger now than they have ever been before. Doooooooom? Hardly. Give it a try. Adjust your tactics. It is very doable with the new changes. And believe it or not, it is still a LOT o fun.

Better yet, grab a tank and take him along. Hide behind the tank. spam a few SLA's, step up and CoD, WoB. It works just fine.

[Forzah]

30% less compared to sorcs? You mean the same sorcs who have an elemental pre, invest most of their ap in elemental damage and get a capstone that improves damage? The ones who have a significantly larger sp pool and cast faster then wizards do? Wizards are a good bit behind sorcs in the damage department, and their new ability to kill steal on a failed fort save doesnt exactly make up for that.

Also, you won't be able to hit stuff right at the 50% mark, you'll lay down aoes, dance around them, and when that last outlier gets to <50% you wail. The majority of mobs could well be at 30-40% then (throw in evasion and the disparity will be even greater), and you still risk failing the fort save. At that point, it would probably better to just finish them with damage, since you already invested in that.

Note: when wizards do 30% less damage than sorcs, sorcs do 42% more damage than wizards.

And yes, most parts in your analysis seem about right. Maybe if the instantkill cap is upped to 60%, then the average killing speed is about the same?

I can only assume that those of you on here raging, "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!" did not participate in the closed beta. A lot has changed.

1) Due to the way spellpower applies, SLA's are no longer "cute". They are downright nasty.
2) Epics are not NEARLY as difficult as before.
3) Tanking is now easily done in epics. And highly encouraged.
4) Epic mobs hit much less often in melee and for much less damage
5) Epic mobs get hit much more often in melee and for much more damage.


If you want to run around and insta-kill things with a single "omg-i just killed 5 rooms of mobs all at once" button, you still can. Just do Epic-Normal. Leave the Epic-Hard and Epic-Elite to those who prefer group play.

How many of you read the notes and screamed dooooooooom without logging in and playing? I know a few of you did for sure. One in particular referred to the PM SLA's as "cute". If your's are "cute" then you need to re-evaluate your build. Mine are hitting upwards of about 300-400, and my aura is ticking for 70-110. Palemasters are stronger now than they have ever been before. Doooooooom? Hardly. Give it a try. Adjust your tactics. It is very doable with the new changes. And believe it or not, it is still a LOT o fun.

Better yet, grab a tank and take him along. Hide behind the tank. spam a few SLA's, step up and CoD, WoB. It works just fine.

Wow, that is actually very positive!

[Voldomar]

Unfortunately, unarmed barbs do about 80% less damage compared to monks, and with a weapon between 0-20% more, so that would lead to barbs being slower killers than monks. Wizards however, do only 30% less damage than sorcs, and kill instantly after that 50% mark, so they still have the advantage. Logic ftw!

Numbers-out-of-our-behinds-ftw!
I was exaggerating on purpose to show the flaws of that argument.

Sadly, is not that after that 50% mark your instakills are guaranteed to work. You still have to beat sr and fort save. You may still have to land an energy drain or two. Your toon need to be the best of the best to make instadeath work reliably in epic elite. But why bother? The mob is halfway dead, it's easier to blow things up. It requires far less time and gear.

[Airgeadlam]

By being a teamplayer! That's why I 100% approve of this change; it promotes playing together.

Yes! And pidgeon hole the divines back to healbots, that encourages teamplay, because we all know that in the past there were plenty of divines ready to pug! You had to decline thousands of them on every single LFM! Oh... wait...

Same happens here. You think every wizard suddenly will see the light and say "ok, no more kills, I will buff the party and use holds and webs only". Most likely "Ok.. TR into sorc, which is the cool thing now, and destroy every mob in sight". How is that promoting "teamplay"? And yes, between quotes because I understand you mean "bringing melees along, and a divine, and...". Those guys can simple join other sorcs and be done with it. Your (and my) barbarian will be out of the equation.

And consider other consequences: Assasins? no no.. (they were too OP as well, right?). Instakill spells on divines? No no.

The problem with you is that if someone but you kills the mob, then is not teamplay. That divine using implosion to save a bit more sp to heal YOU at the boss? Not a teamplayer! That Palemaster who fingers the enemy caster who is gonna blast you with cometfalls? He is not a teamplayer either. The divine should heal you and the caster buff you and hold the mob for you. That's teamplay, right?

[DeafeningWhisper]

Nah, we'll just be back to the olden days of drop a bb and kite kite kite kite. Too bad since I was planning a layout without any lore for BB but I guess I'll want the crits now lol.

Except for the whole "most damage with the new spell power mechanic comes from enhancement" thing, which is why BB hits for about half now...

The thing is, it just makes soloing on a PM slower, not impossible. I'm specced in acid/lightning/ice 7/1/1 and could solo new content on norm with just slas.

Under the new spell power mechanic, aura ticks for more and slas hit harder. Only difference is now instead of kiting through Circle of Death then wailing, now I cast web+ice storm and sla the survivor, if anything it cost less sp.

[Xyfiel]

Just remember Epic Hard and Elite are not finished yet so if you go in there and think it is easy, it probably won't stay that way. The Epic Elite I did this morning as a test was easier then most older epics.

[Doxmaster]

I can only assume that those of you on here raging, "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!" did not participate in the closed beta. A lot has changed.

How many of you read the notes and screamed dooooooooom without logging in and playing? I know a few of you did for sure. One in particular referred to the PM SLA's as "cute". If your's are "cute" then you need to re-evaluate your build. Mine are hitting upwards of about 300-400, and my aura is ticking for 70-110. Palemasters are stronger now than they have ever been before. Doooooooom? Hardly. Give it a try. Adjust your tactics. It is very doable with the new changes. And believe it or not, it is still a LOT o fun.

Better yet, grab a tank and take him along. Hide behind the tank. spam a few SLA's, step up and CoD, WoB. It works just fine.

Well, if it was a closed beta not everyone would even have the option of logging in to play it. So...

At any rate, I'll need some new numbers for evoker archmages. Perhaps it might be epic viable now.

I still hate Cyclonic blast though. Force missiles would make a much better tier 5 archmage SLA.

[justagame]

By being a teamplayer! That's why I 100% approve of this change; it promotes playing together.

No it doesn't.

If content is boring to players, they won't play it. Taking away offensive abilities of divines won't make them play like the healbot folks seem to want. They'll just play something else. Another class. Other content.

Seriously, why waste tons of good real-life time grinding out past lives to increase your DC's, when you could have healed just as well without them? Why should I blow though scrolls and potions at my own expense in hard content in seek of improving my abilities, when all that matters is the healing (which I can do just as well without grinding for all that stuff)?

[Ape_Man]

Good luck finding a wizard for your epics.

Have you played the new epics? They ain't hard enough to need one.

[Truga]

By being a teamplayer! That's why I 100% approve of this change; it promotes playing together.

I hope you have an improved shattermantle weapon. If not, nobody will want to "teamplay" with you, what with all the drow running around.

[Alcedes]

a lot has changed. the way we play our toons will be very different. the way we build and gear will change. but overall, we are going to be stronger than we were. where they hit us with a nerf here, they gave us love there and there. it all balances out in the players favor. turbine did a great job. and there is still a lot more fun coming our way.

[Alcedes]

Have you played the new epics? They ain't hard enough to need one.

^^This....


/applaud

[Ape_Man]

^^This....


/applaud

Look, I am by no means in favor of this change. I think it's terrible but the new "epics" are so much easier the "need" for a caster has dropped to well . . . none on epic normal and possibly epic hard depending on the quest.

[Ertay]

which toons we play will be very different. the way we build and gear will change. but overall, some are going to be stronger than they were. where they hit some of us with a nerf here, they gave some others love there and there. and there is still a lot more nerf coming our way.

fixed that for you.

[anto_capone]

Have you played the new epics? They ain't hard enough to need one.

Look, I am by no means in favor of this change. I think it's terrible but the new "epics" are so much easier the "need" for a caster has dropped to well . . . none on epic normal and possibly epic hard depending on the quest.

I understand what you mean, I haven't tried the new epics yet but after Lord of Dust I'm not entirely surprised. The only epic part of that one is the trap...

[Alcedes]

this is so funny. the closed beta started out the SAME way! im quitting. im rerolling. im deleting. a month went by. people stopped complaining. and started playing. and everyone seemed very positive about the results. there were still a few doomers. but in general, the entire beta testing community in the end was posting positive feedback and enjoying their new "gimped" toons. this nerf really needed to happen honestly. i love my palemaster. i have a lot of fun with him. but i have always found it lame that i can kite 6 rooms of mobs (more or less, till i get an orange alert), then turn on them, pop 1 wail and kil them all.

and in epics, i pop circle of death first. THEN wail. And i limit it to one room at a time. either way, it was lame. it requires NO skill whatsoever to do this. in fact, its just plain easy. not to say that there were not some challenging epics. and definitely not saying there were not some that couldnt be solo'd. the point being, it is EPIC. nobody should be soloing it with the great ease that a 45+ dc palemaster can. and with the xpac coming out, palemasters are going to see DC's in the high 50's. yes...this nerf was needed.