How exactly are pale masters going to bring down mobs <50%

[Jasparion]

Palemasters will kill mobs same way as fire savants in shavarath.
Newbies will struggle, and waste millions of mana on spells they don't spec in, or will pike while rest of party fights.
Vets/not clueless playes simply won't play palemasters anymore.

You think Newbies should be soloing Epic Hard and Epic Elite dungeons?

Should Turbine care if they play dungeons beyond their ability, and play them badly?

Seems like wizards are going to be back to the old days of hold and haste bots.

Its interesting that when the Spell Power changes were announced people were saying no-one will play Sorcs anymore, they will play Wizards or melees. When This change is announced suddenly they wont be playing Wizards they will be playing Sorcs or melees.

So they will be playing Sorcs but they wont be playing Sorcs. Maybe they will just play melees.

So my question is, who thinks melees will be soloing Epic Elite dungeons?

It's not like wizards can't use any damage spells.... even if you do 40% less damage than a sorc, you will still kill quicker if you can insta kill that last 50%...

Hmmm far too much logic for a DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM thread.

[Voldomar]

Hmmm far too much logic for a DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM thread.

Ok, how about this:

On epic elite you cannot use weapons and have to rely on your fist till mobs drop down to 50% hp.

Forzah-style reply: "It's not like barbs can't use fists.... even if you do X% less damage than a monk, you will still kill quicker if you can equip your eSos that last 50%"

Yeah, it sounds logic...

[Eme]

i dont play casters, and preferred monks,,

but comparing no insta kills playing as we have experienced, to insta kills possible moments that we have also experienced..

it is FAR FAR more fun with insta kills than not.

this is going to get dull very soon

do the devs have a short term memory and forget what they learn time and time again ? it seems so

[Jasparion]

Ok, how about this:

On epic elite you cannot use weapons and have to rely on your fist till mobs drop down to 50% hp.

Forzah-style reply: "It's not like barbs can't use fists.... even if you do X% less damage than a monk, you will still kill quicker if you can equip your eSos that last 50%"

Yeah, it sounds logic...

Logic would say you need to find a way to stun/stop/slow down the mobs for a few seconds while you do damage spells to knock them down to 50% and then Wail. A quick check of the Wizard spell list revealed there were in fact dozens of options available, beyond Wail. In fact, many people who fight Red mobs and Purple mobs already use them.

Of course, you dont want to be at 51% when you Wail, so best aim to get them down to 40% to 45% then Wail.

That said, Im not sure why Epic Hard is included with Epic Elite. This is the one thing I think they should change.

[Voldomar]

Logic would say you need to find a way to stun/stop/slow down the mobs for a few seconds while you do damage spells to knock them down to 50% and then Wail. A quick check of the Wizard spell list revealed there were in fact dozens of options available, beyond Wail. In fact, many people who fight Red mobs and Purple mobs already use them.

Exactly. So why should I bother with instakills ( that CAN be saved ) when I can just dps down the other half of mob's hp?

[Schwarzie]

Logic would say you need to find a way to stun/stop/slow down the mobs for a few seconds while you do damage spells to knock them down to 50% and then Wail. A quick check of the Wizard spell list revealed there were in fact dozens of options available, beyond Wail. In fact, many people who fight Red mobs and Purple mobs already use them.

Because a wizard using dps spells is a badly played wizard. He has much lower dps then a sorcerer and a third less Spellpoints.

The Devs pidgeonholed sorcerers into the nuking role and the Wizards into the DC Spell roles. Now they gimp the DC spell role and force the Wizard to eomploy tactics of a Sorcerer where he performs extremely bad. And its especially funny that they create a PRE that is themed to Instadeathspells and then bring a "feature" that actually makes this PRE univable.

And dont start with Negative energy damage. Most SLAs are more in the cute then the effective department. The only thing speaking form them is that they are essentially for free, but it takes literaly ages to kill a single epic mob with them.

[MnaSidhe]

When This change is announced suddenly they wont be playing Wizards they will be playing Sorcs or melees.

Can someone link the announcement please? I can't find it...

[CoasterHops]

They can put up a dance ball, wait for melee to whittle mobs down then finger.
No mass holds cause then the melee might kill em too fast, meaning not much time for finger to come off cooldown.
Melee will spit tacks, but hey you gotta do what yah gotta do.

[pjw]

Can someone link the announcement please? I can't find it...

It's in the release notes:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...30#post4503430

Epic monsters on hard and elite are now resistant against death if their CR is above 20. This ward is called “hard to kill” and acts as a death ward until the targets hps drops below 50% which removes the ward. The ward doesn’t restore after the monster heals.

Basically sucks as a mechanism, and at best leads to a kill-stealing gameplay mechanic which makes no-one happy.

[Ziindarax]

If I recall correctly, this change applies only to Epic Hard and Epic Elite. Epic Normal and casual will still let you insta-kill as normal.

Honestly though, I not only approve of this change, but saw it coming miles away; every update since U12 has been becoming increasingly balanced with casters in mind.

[Truga]

Does this mean the cooldowns are getting fixed? If yes, this is the best change ever.

[Fomori]

Because a wizard using dps spells is a badly played wizard. He has much lower dps then a sorcerer and a third less Spellpoints.

I think you are confusing badly with suboptimal.

Not everyone, their mom, cousin, 3 dogs, ferret, and secondary personality plays to optimally power game. Sometimes people play a character for other reasons.

Now, if you are asking why the 'mathmatically constructed to remove suboptimal issue' builders are going to stick with wizard when sorc dps is better... that sir, is an much more interesting question!

[Emili]

If the only spells you ever inscribed were FoD CoD an' PwK you're not much of a wiz to start so seem...

I mean Kaalil was wailing and fingering mob tonight and it looked fine, I think he was testing out spells too as went along though to actually see real mob weakness' like the good caster he is. The spells still work just the mob need take some damage to them... way things were he'd toss a web where my ranger was tanking then off centre some aoe, then a wail or fod on some...

Anyway, one trick ponies do not make for a good melee and it never did make for a good wizard either ... even in PrE such as PM, I know mine is ice and a little acid mixed in for those times when tossin necro just is not the thing to do? I mean seriously, do ya stay out of quests with heavy undead because you can't wail at them? All the same while I know is a PM's strong point the strongest thing about a wizard is versitility...

[Vellrad]

If the only spells you ever inscribed were FoD CoD an' PwK you're not much of a wiz to start so seem... I mean Kaalil was wailing and fingering mob tonight and it looked fine, I think he was testing out spells too as went along though to actually see real mob weakness' like a good caster. The spells still work just the mob need take some hit to them...

One trick ponies do not make a good melee it does not make a good wizard either ... even in PrE such as PM, I know mine is ice and a little acid mixed in for those times when Necroing just is not the thing to do? I mean seriously, do ya stay out of quests with heavy undead because you can't wail at them?

Yet all those melee barbs with greataxes are 1 trick ponies, but somehow the only place when they have to change weapon is abbot.

[Forzah]

Mmm, so a melee that uses imp sunder and carries a cursespewing weapon is a big no no, cause it's not fun; but being a buff/mass hold bot is "team playing" ?

Ehm... you haven't heard me say the first. I really like debuffing for the team, and sometimes turn on my destruction armor to do so .

Oh I like I'm gonna play pretending to be a gimp sorc till mobs drop down to 50% so I can actually play like a good wiz...

Overall you thus take more or less the same time on a wizard to kill something as on a sorc, and are likely still faster.

[Emili]

Yet all those melee barbs with greataxes are 1 trick ponies, but somehow the only place when they have to change weapon is abbot.

I'm not saying I agree with the devs... but if ya see a one-trick pony barb, then ya see a not so good barb. Where are thier tactics and such?

Ya PM's got a little hand tied ... so have assasins, cleric implossions and other things ... like vorpal death type procs.

One strange thing is Epic Norm - the rubish mob have hardly any hp - and can be delt with pretty quickly, come Hard epic though the hp go up to the levels am aquanted with then elite epic they tend hain another 50% to 75% over hard depending what they are.

[MnaSidhe]

It's in the release notes:

Basically sucks as a mechanism, and at best leads to a kill-stealing gameplay mechanic which makes no-one happy...

+1 thanks!

So if I understand that correctly, levelling as a PM and getting up to L20, and doing the Epics on normal, not hard or elite... is not affected?

[sweez]

Feels like caster favored souls get hit even more with that change.

Nah, we'll just be back to the olden days of drop a bb and kite kite kite kite. Too bad since I was planning a layout without any lore for BB but I guess I'll want the crits now lol.

[Vezuial]

I'd have to agree that effectively removing instant kills is a bit drastic, though I would agree that instant killers were a bit over the top occasionally. How about a simple change to the mechanic: Rather than giving the mobs death wards, why not give them a buff that changes what would be a lethal spell (read: non-resisted finger/wail/etc) into a percentage based damage - let's say 50% (or deal damage 90% of the time and still kill 10%).

This would remove the 'clickyourdead'-effect, but leave casters with a very powerful nuke. The beforementioned aoe instakills (wail, circle) would still have a massive impact if used correctly.

[sweez]

As far as I understand it, while you can't insta-death them, you can still hit em with negative energy.

What's the issue again?

Edit to Add:

"Waaaa! I can't kill things and feel uber now!"
Welcome to U5 for Melees.

Hey smrti,

I assure you, should you group with any bluebar of mine post xpack, I'll still outkill you at least 3:1 on your melee (well, if you don't count my bard as bluebar that is ).

That being said, do you think your comment makes any sense?

Regards, FAT! green creations.