Supreme Cleave Change

[dubyprime]

I have to say this is pretty inspired (and fair).

I don't see how changing animations so that Great axe/Esos builds get a faster cleave and TWF, Staff, etc styles get a slower cleave is fair.
I also don't agree that reworking cleave so that barbarians get a 0 sec cool down is a fair.
I especially don't think that increasing the damage while leaving a zero cool down is fair.
I wouldn't call using a lot of words and toggles to take exactly what barbarians are doing on live and add 25% more damage at the cost of 1 feat, "inspired".
We may just have to politely disagree here.

For a truly skilled player cleave is something that accentuates the FB and adds dimension to the barbarian class as a whole but for intermediate and begginer players its just 3 more buttons to manage and it's annoying.

I completely agree with you. Supreme cleave is loads of fun and adds and awesome dynamic to barbarian play.
Barbarians will be less fun without it.

I, and many like me, simply find the cleave feats cumbersome. This change would make it intuitive and give us something to do besides auto-attack and rebuff every 30-60 seconds.

I keep both cleave and supreme cleave on my hot bar at all times. There is plenty of room. Every time cleave is off timer, I endeavor to use it in the proper step of my attack chain.

I personally find toggles more cumbersome than other buttons due to various toggles turning off due to log outs and activation times of toggles. I'll concede that this is a personal preference and shouldn't matter.

While the proposed change is not necessarily counter intuitive, it is no more intuitive than: put the feat on your hot bar, hit the button, wait the cool down, hit the button again.
Considering all the various feats enhancements and spells there should be no difference in the intuitive nature of either version of the ability.

[FrostBeard]

I think every class needs an over haul all the new classes seem to be much more powerful than the old original ones.

[FrostBeard]

it should be
every class should be unique and have there own abilities.
requires 2hand weapon

Cleave
Basic Damage 180 degree Range. unique to barbs

Improved Cleave
Improved Damage 240 degree Range. unique to barbs

Supreme Cleave
Improved Damage 360 degree Range. unique to barbs.

[Hawkwier]

[QUOTE=MRMechMan;4514254]Poor logic.


A 3second cooldown on wail would save everyone hp and sp, too.

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Au contraire - it is you who invokes poor logic. Wail is not the only powerful spell available to casters - not by a long-shot!

Comparing it's relative importance to casters with that to a barb's SC is, with all due respect, pretty ridiculous.

I've also been reading that casters are considered way OP compared to melees - and having now played a L7 sorc for a week or so without once running out of SP, I can certianly see why. What then, is logical in nerfing a key component of a melee class in terms of game balance?

[MRMechMan]

Honestly, I'd be OK keeping it as is. AOE damage is a big thing that seperates casters from melees and is what makes zerging possible/efficient on a caster. Keeping an ability that allows a melee class to deal nice AOE damage is fine IMO-particularly as it invariably leads to the character taking quite a bit of damage anyway.

Oh look, same post you are quoting....just decided to leave off that part I guess.

Barbs don't need this nerf. Melees in general don't need nerfs. We are on the same page.

I just thought it funny that Shade thinks that the avg player can't hit 3 buttons in 8 seconds. Or don't have the intelligence to fit 2 feats on a hotbar. Even barbs that roleplay can do that.

[BacardiSpecialist]

Barbs don't need this nerf. Melees in general don't need nerfs. We are on the same page.

Totally agree but there are still Fanboys of certain classes that keep yelling nerf this,nerf that, when they never played a certain class based on Descriptions and passionate forumites rants

I just thought it funny that Shade thinks that the avg player can't hit 3 buttons in 8 seconds. Or don't have the intelligence to fit 2 feats on a hotbar. Even barbs that roleplay can do that.



3 buttons so you are counting Cleave,Greater Cleave,Supreme Cleave.

Its not that we cant.it is just the fact that destinies introduced ~6 new spamming clickies,we are forced to get another feat to do the same thing we were doing before (And a useless for Barbs Weapon Focus to get Epic Critical),if i was a fighter i wouldnt care but as a barb i am forced to drop totally my THF line(no problem since its useless anyway) or other tactical Feats (Imp Sunder) and a couple Toughness Feats to squeeze everything.

Now add the useless Fury of the Wild destiny and the grind of 4million xp (along with the loss of my previous gained Epic Destiny Skills basically starting from scratch) we have to do in order to max LD (Prolly the one true DPS line) and you can see what is this all rage about.
We had an edge in AoE Dps beneficial for the whole party and we lost it because of LD`s design something everyone seems to keep out of the Talk,now i am just a meatbag with boom boom only (and not that great boom boom anymore )

Uncanny dodge looks great in paper but i am prolly at the 40% chance most of the time

[wizzy_catt]

Dont like either way. devs should note that too much nerf will cause noticeable amount of population loss and should server merge be an open option. well im not looking forward to the update as all my main playable characters are getting a downgrade. casual friendly? i think not.

[Hawkwier]

Oh look, same post you are quoting....just decided to leave off that part I guess.
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No, I just decided to respond to your erroneous assertion that my logic was flawed, is all, when in fact it was yours.

Glad I could clear that up for you!

[dubyprime]

I agree some classes need to be reworked a bit. I hope that is coming with the new enhancement system, but that is quite a wait.

Barbarians certainly seem to get the short end on Destinies.

it should be
every class should be unique and have there own abilities.
requires 2hand weapon

Cleave
Basic Damage 180 degree Range. unique to barbs

Improved Cleave
Improved Damage 240 degree Range. unique to barbs

Supreme Cleave
Improved Damage 360 degree Range. unique to barbs.

Cleave is not a barbarian only ability. It is a general feat that anyone can take.
Restricting cleave to barbarians is a bad idea.
Barbarians have Rage, Frenzy, Death Frenzy. No other class gets these.

[Hawkwier]

SUPREME cleave IS exclusive to barbs, and that's what's getting nerfed.

[Scraap]

I could get behind turning great and supreme into a single button cleave buff, with the progression going, say...

(Compared to base of 4 new 'cleaves' in 5 seconds for ~1 per second for a tricked out aoe fighter)

Cleave 3 seconds
Great 2 seconds
Supreme 1 second
Whirl 3 seconds, second barslot (with cleave, 1.5 seconds/attack, with great, 1.25)

Gives barbs twice the cleave output over the same point on a fighter, and saves active bar space for trip, sunder, stun, and quick-situational itemswap for both.

[dubyprime]

SUPREME cleave IS exclusive to barbs, and that's what's getting nerfed.

Yes., that sucks. The OP's suggestion alters all cleaves... that was my point.

[Talias006]

I agree some classes need to be reworked a bit. I hope that is coming with the new enhancement system, but that is quite a wait.

Barbarians certainly seem to get the short end on Destinies.



Cleave is not a barbarian only ability. It is a general feat that anyone can take.
Restricting cleave to barbarians is a bad idea.
Barbarians have Rage, Frenzy, Death Frenzy. No other class gets these.

*Ahem* You know who else has Rage?
Perhaps not as focused into it, but Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers also use Rage (spell).
I am well aware the two are not quite the same, but they produce similar results, whereas the ability is (usually) shorter duration but greater gains and the spell is (also usually) longer duration but lesser gains.

[dubyprime]

*Ahem* You know who else has Rage?
Perhaps not as focused into it, but Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers also use Rage (spell).
I am well aware the two are not quite the same, but they produce similar results, whereas the ability is (usually) shorter duration but greater gains and the spell is (also usually) longer duration but lesser gains.

Yup, the rage spell is a great party buff.
Extended rage is 6 minutes and +2str, +2 con.

Barbarians get a special ability called Barbarian Rage that stacks with the rage spell.
My barbarian's rage lasts 4+minutes and grants +12str +11 con.
Various other barbarians will have differing bonuses based on enhancements, but +8+8 is the bonus from just 20 levels of barbarian.

If wizards/sorcs/bards could spend enhancements to increase the value of the rage spell, that would take away from barbarians.
As it stands the comparison is ludicrous.
Even so I will set this aside for the sake of trying to get back on topic.
Assuming that the rage spell takes away the uniqueness of barbarian rage, barbarians still get frenzy/death frenzy.
So the point that barbarians lack unique abilities is still invalid.


I could go with Scraap's suggestion of barbarians having twice the cleaves of a Fighter.
That is a much more reasonable change than 5x.

[nayozz]

...

1) if you have to complain that a quest is too easy with your esos full epic barbarian, please do not do it on normal...
try solo elite at least -.-' cause a 6 man normal overleveled playthrough gets only a laugh.

2)i am happy if the developers do not take too much in consideration the most vocal players...

cause this is dungeon and dragon online... not yours or shade's personal mmo game.
i rather prefer 90% change being done by dev personal experience and own feedback, while the 10% is from players feedback, where no player no matter how many post writes get his advice weighted more than other players.