Supreme Cleave Change

[Khatzhas]

As pointed out earlier, a drawback that is applied to another member of the team, and not the person using the ability is not a good drawback. Particularly is the pinnacle ability of a prestige enhancement of a class requires the presence of another person just to make using it viable.

Now the damage might need to be boosted to make up for it, but giving it a cooldown to allow the activation of other abilities between uses is a good idea.

[FrozenNova]

Spamming supreme cleave is the single most entertaining part of playing barbarian.
I will be very sad if this becomes impossible.
I will be very sad indeed if supreme cleave becomes, again, almost never worth using.

[protokon]

my barbarian has 3 hotbars for all his abilities and various clickies/gear swaps.

most of my other toons have 9-12 hotbars all full.

I'm not convinced that barbarians are "insane" to manage when playing this game. push 3-4 buttons then start swinging your weapon. not rocket science.

[Chai]

@shade

probably if developers manage to balance the barbarian class, you will no longer **** everybody off with your

"omg quest is too easy, plz devs make it utterly frustrating /beg /beg" attitude


forcing people to either skip a quest, or complete on casual...


(quests like in the flesh, acute delirium, etc)

Barbarians dont do any better in those classes than anyone else. They are also not OP compared to anything with a blue bar.

If players are skipping a quest because NORMAL is too hard, they are either doing so as a personal preference because they dont like a specific qust, or they need to re-examine their build or their playstyle. Theres no reason why elite cant be balanced for twinked out the wazoo players whove run it 50 times already, and normal balanced for first timers.

[Chai]

LOL.. Are you freaking serious? 30-40 hps is a big loss to you? You need a cleric on his "A" game to take care of your 30-40 lost hit points?



Ah, someone disagrees with you, so you squelch them.

The barbarian has to stand in the middle of a pack of mobs and spam the ability to make it really powerful, and yes, this means taking alot more damage than you are accounting for.

Compared to caster jumping into the same group of mobs, and pushing ONE button ONCE, this ability is no where near overpowered. So for "balance" (which is the word people keep using in this thread) barbarians SC should get a 30 second cooldown, but we only have to push the button once and mobs should just die. That would put it on par with an OP ability.

[Chai]

Displace yourself with a Shroud clickable or hit your 50% Dodge, and wear your ghostly ring, then spamming Supreme Cleave with no cooldown means they die fast, and you "might" need a heal from the comic-reading cleric to top off after all the mobs are dead.

You can kill pretty fast with Supreme Cleave, especially in the 1-20 game. The mobs don't have that much time to hurt you, and if they are super-tough (i.e. elite epics), then pay attention to how many you gather up. Aggro-management is a skill (something the wizards will have to be careful of in elite epics too with the change to insta-death spells there).

You mean in the 12(14) - 20 game?

Change to insta death spells? LOL, you mean the arbitrary method in place of making them not work at all? Im surprised they didnt respond to supreme cleave with ax-ward.

The only thing wizards should have been more careful of is showing off their power, because thats why they are being proxy nerfed again. I wonder what ravager and OS will look like for barbarians when those are released. FB takes hit after hit in most major updates.

[eonfreon]

Because it costs 10 hp.
What other abilities cost hp beside barbs ones?
Guess we should nerf clerics aura,its free,has no cd,doesnt cost anything,fvs clw,free.

A Paladin's Divine Sacrifice ability costs 5 hp and 1 sp. And it doesn't do as much damage as Supreme Cleave. And it has a 3 second cooldown.

[dubyprime]

Because it costs 10 hp.
What other abilities cost hp beside barbs ones?
Guess we should nerf clerics aura,its free,has no cd,doesnt cost anything,fvs clw,free.

Cleric Aura is not free. It has limited uses. It has a cool down. It is the primary benefit of Radiant servant.

FVS capstone has a cool down, it is the only thing granted by those two AP and not a prerequisite for anything.
As an opportunity cost you are giving up other capstones.

Necrotic Touch/bolt/blast cost Hp, Divine sacrifice as mentioned, it also cost SP and is therefore limited and has a cool down.

Everything you listed has a cool down.

[stainer]

I like this change. I think they need to up the self damage from frenzy and death frenzy too. It will cut down on barbs accidentally stealing agro from SD and DOS tanks, which is where is intended to be.

[Chai]

A Paladin's Divine Sacrifice ability costs 5 hp and 1 sp. And it doesn't do as much damage as Supreme Cleave. And it has a 3 second cooldown.

Since we are comparing barbarians to paladins, what update is barbarian getting lay on hands, deathward, unyeilding sov, 30 point resists, and cure serious in?

Obvious apples to oranges comparison is obvious. Theres a reason a hybrid melee class does less damage than a pure melee class. The get all kinds of other abilities to make up for it. If paladin DPS was on par with barbarian DPS -AND- they got all those other abilities and spells, why would people roll barbarians?

Out of all of the things the forumites could be complaining is OP, this one is so far down the list of importance it shouldnt have been addressed until 2015, if at all.

[eonfreon]

Since we are comparing barbarians to paladins, what update is barbarian getting lay on hands, deathward, unyeilding sov, 30 point resists, and cure serious in?

Obvious apples to oranges comparison is obvious. Theres a reason a hybrid melee class does less damage than a pure melee class. The get all kinds of other abilities to make up for it. If paladin DPS was on par with barbarian DPS -AND- they got all those other abilities and spells, why would people roll barbarians?

Out of all of the things the forumites could be complaining is OP, this one is so far down the list of importance it shouldnt have been addressed until 2015, if at all.

Don't recall the person I answered asking anything about Paladin and Barbarian.

He asked what other abilities cost hp. I answered him and listed one.

Obvious person who doesn't read before he goes on rant is obvious. You should really take a moment to read before you respond.

Sorry that the nerf schedule doesn't meet with your timetable.

[dubyprime]

Since we are comparing barbarians to paladins, what update is barbarian getting lay on hands, deathward, unyeilding sov, 30 point resists, and cure serious in?

Obvious apples to oranges comparison is obvious. Theres a reason a hybrid melee class does less damage than a pure melee class. The get all kinds of other abilities to make up for it. If paladin DPS was on par with barbarian DPS -AND- they got all those other abilities and spells, why would people roll barbarians?

Out of all of the things the forumites could be complaining is OP, this one is so far down the list of importance it shouldnt have been addressed until 2015, if at all.

The divine sacrifice comment was in response to a question as previously state. No where have I attempted to compare barbarians to paladins, nor did the poster of that comment.

Barbarian DPS is already off the charts according to shade, and by most accounts. I hold this assumption as true unless Chai, Shade, or someone else wants to prove that it is untrue. It is not my assumption. I simply chose to accept the OP's words.

Supreme cleave is broken as is. Whether you choose to use shade's logic(UNQUANTIFIABLE) or actually look at the data and see that supreme cleave can be used to increase your attack speed(DPS) significantly. This seems to me as the devs correcting an unintended function of supreme cleave that they had for a long time not noticed. Though I am sure that shade never used it in such and exploitative fashion, nor did anyone posting in its defense.


My argument here is that either Supreme Cleave is too powerful if used correctly and needs the change or it is under powered and this change barely effects it so there is no reason to be upset or for the change.

You can't have this both ways.

I'm happy to listen to arguments about how Barbarian DPS is lacking in comparison to other melee classes.

Increasing one melee class DPS because of sorcs while leaving the others behind is a valid argument to keep supreme cleave, but I feel its a waste as it just pushing the one class above all else problem that people dislike.

I love supreme cleave! I use it all the time. Here I am trying to do what Shade has asked, use logic to discuss a change and present rational arguments to the devs. Taking all of Shade's assumptions into account, logic lead me to Supreme cleave is too powerful and needed the nerf. Then reading some of the older posts on the topic of attack speeds and using cleaves to alter them and the associated complaints, I saw the evidence that supreme cleave was indeed overpowered and being use in an unintended fashion.

As far as your last point, the order devs choose to address things is something you can debate with them. This had been addressed. Its moot to discuss when you should have completed a project that has already been completed.

Lastly, I suggest you do as Shade has asked and take a calm logical look at things and try to step away from the emotional attachment to your character. I know its hard, but he's right its helpful.

[BacardiSpecialist]

So there is a cool down and HP or SP cost at OP Capstones/Pres that they are just running in the background.

Are we still talking about the same thing here?

When they touched Fighters Power Surge bonuses and the QQ started there,a dev ran like crazy to calm them down,even though they werent happy in the end because they couldnt use Cookies or Titans Grip... O.o

During the whole SC change we got 2 official messages 1 was informing us that they will change the cooldown from 6 seconds but to the other Cleaves that we just dont care but fighters will benefit the most...and the second one was a quote with someones +3[W] bonus suggestion...

100 people were telling them dont and they took the one fighters advice.

So what a Barbarian is anyway?

Can someone really tell me why choose Barbarian over anything after the SC change and the ridiculous Destiny? (Dont start silly "you have amazing Dodge now" comments if you havent actually tried him at Beta extensively like i did and havent noticed any difference).

[Thrudh]

(Dont start silly "you have amazing Dodge now" comments if you havent actually tried him at Beta extensively like i did and havent noticed any difference).

You don't notice a 50% miss chance? Do you play with your eyes shut?

[BacardiSpecialist]

Then reading some of the older posts on the topic of attack speeds and using cleaves to alter them and the associated complaints, I saw the evidence that supreme cleave was indeed overpowered and being use in an unintended fashion.

If thats the case lets disable moving while swinging to avoid twiching or Jumping and swinging the same time for the same reason.

On the Cleave thread they even did the calculations on how to use Cleave to interrupt the cooldowns...

I havent read these threads and i dont care,i just care for my investment in gear Crowd Control.Stat Damagers .Destruction/Imp Destruction that i farmed for months so i can use effectively with SC.

Removing my Aoe damage and leaving me just with Glancing Blows which we all know how OP it is..

So Barbarians are left with single target DPS, hmmmmmm why i think thats not enough and other classes are better at that?

[BacardiSpecialist]

You don't notice a 50% miss chance? Do you play with your eyes shut?

Do you want to come at Beta and see for yourself?I`ll even flag you for the raid!

Btw bring a nice shield and a Heavy Mithral too..i think we found the new Ultimate Tank.

But lets say in 40minutes i am Going to solo eLoB with my amazing survivability.

[Chai]

Don't recall the person I answered asking anything about Paladin and Barbarian.

He asked what other abilities cost hp. I answered him and listed one.

Obvious person who doesn't read before he goes on rant is obvious. You should really take a moment to read before you respond.

Sorry that the nerf schedule doesn't meet with your timetable.

Accusations of lack of reading - the most common form of backpedaling on the forums. Please refrain from quoting me and posting this kind of stuff.

[eonfreon]

Accusations of lack of reading - the most common form of backpedaling on the forums. Please refrain from quoting me and posting this kind of stuff.

So are accusations of "obvious apples to oranges" comparisons. Please refrain from your usual tripe.

[Chai]

The divine sacrifice comment was in response to a question as previously state. No where have I attempted to compare barbarians to paladins, nor did the poster of that comment.

Barbarian DPS is already off the charts according to shade, and by most accounts. I hold this assumption as true unless Chai, Shade, or someone else wants to prove that it is untrue. It is not my assumption. I simply chose to accept the OP's words.

Supreme cleave is broken as is. Whether you choose to use shade's logic(UNQUANTIFIABLE) or actually look at the data and see that supreme cleave can be used to increase your attack speed(DPS) significantly. This seems to me as the devs correcting an unintended function of supreme cleave that they had for a long time not noticed. Though I am sure that shade never used it in such and exploitative fashion, nor did anyone posting in its defense.


My argument here is that either Supreme Cleave is too powerful if used correctly and needs the change or it is under powered and this change barely effects it so there is no reason to be upset or for the change.

You can't have this both ways.

I'm happy to listen to arguments about how Barbarian DPS is lacking in comparison to other melee classes.

Increasing one melee class DPS because of sorcs while leaving the others behind is a valid argument to keep supreme cleave, but I feel its a waste as it just pushing the one class above all else problem that people dislike.

I love supreme cleave! I use it all the time. Here I am trying to do what Shade has asked, use logic to discuss a change and present rational arguments to the devs. Taking all of Shade's assumptions into account, logic lead me to Supreme cleave is too powerful and needed the nerf. Then reading some of the older posts on the topic of attack speeds and using cleaves to alter them and the associated complaints, I saw the evidence that supreme cleave was indeed overpowered and being use in an unintended fashion.

As far as your last point, the order devs choose to address things is something you can debate with them. This had been addressed. Its moot to discuss when you should have completed a project that has already been completed.

Lastly, I suggest you do as Shade has asked and take a calm logical look at things and try to step away from the emotional attachment to your character. I know its hard, but he's right its helpful.

Two pure melee classes are better at single target DPS than barbarians since 2009 according to the spreadsheet gamers who have been posting their charts. There are only 2 other pure melee classes.

Supreme cleave is the one thing that helped keep barbarians parallel, because situations with multiple mobs was their niche.

This is so far down on the list of things that needed a nerf. Why are they even considering nerfing anything melee at all?

As far as accusing me of having an emotional attachment to my character being the driving force behind my feedback - this is just as unhelpful as calling everyone who supports every single nerf a fanboi. The fact that I disagree with your assertation that this needs to be nerfed does not mean youre the one being logical and those of us who disagree are all hellbent in some emotional state of mind. This "I am right and you are off your rocker" scenario is the picture people like to paint on these forums all too often, and it is vastly incorrect. I also think its hilarious that alot of you think some of us only play one toon, like all Shade has in his entire stable of characters is cloned barbarians. If you want to have a logical discussion, the first thing you need to do is refrain from bringing that kind of stuff to the table, because it doesnt reinforce anything other than the severe lack of respect for those who disagree with nerf supporters.

You really think supreme cleave needed a nerf? How many barbarians are 12 level split, compared to 6 level split and 18 level split? How come more werent building for this insanely overpowered tool then? Because the overexagerating hyperbolic forumites® are incorrect regarding this issue, thats why. If theres a better reason, please enlighten us. What I see is people building for insane levels of single target DPS, then getting all bent out of shape and crying for nerfs when they see something they didnt build for working so effectively in the situations it applies to. Barbarian wasnt quite as good at single target, but was better at AOE - and now for some reason their AOE niche needs to be toned down some? Perhaps the barbarian players arent the ones with emotional attachments to their toons. Perhaps its those who are asking for the nerfs in the first place who need to take that step back, as you recommended, realize they built a single target DPS monster, and understand that their toon doesnt do AOE as well because they didnt build for it.

[Hokiewa]

I like this change. I think they need to up the self damage from frenzy and death frenzy too. It will cut down on barbs accidentally stealing agro from SD and DOS tanks, which is where is intended to be.

I see what you did there.