Supreme Cleave Change

[Shade]

Coulda sworn the original thread discussed both a lower timer (like 3 seconds) and a higher +[W] (Which, say what you will, at least means it's not as easy for a caster to replicate with buffs, and does apply to base damage, so crits and the like.) What happened there?

The original thread is not deleted, if you have access to the beta forums, you can still go review it. I didnt change anything in it other then to match the new (still horrible) nerf in the release notes. They never increased the +W.

[Scraap]

The original thread is not deleted, if you have access to the beta forums, you can still go review it. I didnt change anything in it other then to match the new (still horrible) nerf in the release notes. They never increased the +W.

Right. Meant Eladrins proposed compromise. Seems that got forgotten? Put off? Reconsidered?

[lugoman]

I am curious, what (high level) quests have enough trash mobs that stay alive long enough to make any cleave worth while? I can only think of the walk to LoB.

[Recared]

Coulda sworn the original thread discussed both a lower timer (like 3 seconds) and a higher +[W] (Which, say what you will, at least means it's not as easy for a caster to replicate with buffs, and does apply to base damage, so crits and the like.)

Could this solution be satisfactory: Supreme Cleave remains same cooldown as live but can only count towards any kind of Epic Destiny charge, etc., once per 5 seconds period. Would that solve the problem of Leg. Dread. ED interaction with this nice barbarian ability?

The problem is we have not been told what the problem is to force this change. If the problem is EDs interactions, seems easy (at first glance) to fix in a more barbarian friendly way. If the problem is somebody thinks barbarians are dealing too much dps, then we need to really discuss that (and having played since the game started, I agree with Shade's melee/arcane overall balance and dps balance considerations almost 100%).

[krackythehoodedone]

Well for running Epic content i honestly didnt think Cleave was worth it.

Before you could even get close to a group of Non Red Named Epics they had already disappeared into a puff of logic

Now ofc that little instakill fest is getting reigned in .So when it would have been extremely handy to get the mobs down to 50% fast with Supreme Cleave its been nerfed. Have you thought the two might be linked ?

I must admit all i'm hearing is doom. Team Blue Bar has already Ragequit and several hundred thousand toys are heading skywards and it looks like Shade and Co are following along

I'm not coming with you until they nerf Crit Rage then i am preparing to act like a five year old.

Honestly joking aside i'm not quite at status apocalypse immediate, Defcon 0 past tense yet. Everyone knew Casters were going to take a hit, the rest is give a bit and take a bit. Lots of new toys and abilities to come.

As for all the new AC/Resist/Dodge/SP stuff i think the jury is still out is it not ?

[Shade]

Everyone knew Casters were going to take a hit, the rest is give a bit and take a bit.

I didn't know that.

All I know is my sorcerer is insanely powerful in the beta, and has not received a single noticable nerf. He infact gained a ton of power.

My barbarian makes me want to smash my keyboard when i play it.

[dubyprime]

I do have a barbarian. Lvl 20, TRed with Barb pastlife and ESOS, AGA, Claw Set, etc,etc. I use supreme cleave all the time and its ridiculous. Infact I started using supreme cleave over a year ago based on reading posts by you and others about how to use supreme cleave to increase your DPS, single target included.

Just because people don't post on the forums about how something is over powered doesn't mean that its not. There have been lots of overpowered bugs malfunctionings of the game that were never posted on the forums but everyone complained about privately. Most people believe Terror is an overpowered weapon, but you don't see repetitive posts discussing it.

My evidence is your own words.
Since when should a melee have AOE DPS? No other melee gets AOE DPS. It is clearly not an intentional design of the barbarian class. AOE Dps is not something a barbarian should get for FREE.

No I would not have said so. I don't think its ridiculously over powered. I think its a little bit over powered. I could care less if it stays the same or changes. Your own words describe how awesome and over powered you think it is though. Seriously read your descriptions.

Supreme cleave is the best thing ever according to you. (Defining class ability, Massive DPS, etc)

That is the stance I disagree with. I think its neat but not all that. If it is that awesome though, it needs to be changed.

Clearly the devs think its over powered, or atleast needed a change. Maybe they were reading all the private feedback they get on bugs/non-intended things and looked into it. Perhaps they listened to you talking about how massive AOE damage is defining of barbarians in all those private discussion and thought.. WAIT a Minute!.

re: prime

A massive boost to. AOE dps only.

On a class that has next to zero aoe dps as is (glancing blows are very weak) not anywhere near the top for sngle target DPS as it is. It's was balanced.

Wheres your evidence anyone ever thought it was oveprowered in the past? You have none.

Your only purpose here is to point the finger after the fact, because you dont play the class. Thats whats clear to me.

If you really felt this in the past, youd of said so.

[Shade]

Could this solution be satisfactory: Supreme Cleave remains same cooldown as live but can only count towards any kind of Epic Destiny charge, etc., once per 5 seconds period. Would that solve the problem of Leg. Dread. ED interaction with this nice barbarian ability?

The problem is we have not been told what the problem is to force this change. If the problem is EDs interactions, seems easy (at first glance) to fix in a more barbarian friendly way. If the problem is somebody thinks barbarians are dealing too much dps, then we need to really discuss that (and having played since the game started, I agree with Shade's melee/arcane overall balance and dps balance considerations almost 100%).

Im fine with that.

They can do whatever they want with the epic destinies. They are new and they are there own baby. Do as they please. Nerfing the heroic game itself because of a poor design in the epic game does NOT make any sense.

But abilities that they gave us over a year ago and are ingrained into playstyles? Please don't nerf these.

When I bought this expansion I thought ALL classes would gain a ton of power and its would be EPIC. Boy was I wrong.

But I dont see why that cant happen. I dont understand why we have to gain levels and lose power (in a certain facet of the game, AOE damage in this case).

[dubyprime]

I didn't know that.

All I know is my sorcerer is insanely powerful in the beta, and has not received a single noticable nerf. He infact gained a ton of power.

My barbarian makes me want to smash my keyboard when i play it.

I didn't have a problem running my barb on the beta. I ran out into the explorer area found a herd of orange named bears, hit uncanny dodge, ran into the middle of them, and spammed supreme cleave till they all died. Heystack hit me with a few heals too. TEAM PLAY!!!>

[Shade]

AOE Dps is not something a barbarian should get for FREE.

I dont believe you have a bbn. Give us a myddo link.

If you feel supreme cleave is FREE. I dont think anyone would trust you play a bbn.

when I perform a supreme cleave on pack of monsters, I generally lose about 30-40 hitpoints. That is FREE?

... last reply to you ever.

[Scraap]

Brings up a notion. Here's another out of the box idea if they insist on bringing down the top end that far:

Barb DR cutting into viscous damage.

If you lower the benefit, then lower the penalty.

[krackythehoodedone]

Err isnt Improved Precise Shot AOE DPS Duby ?

Doesnt the SP changes nerf Sorcs by capping dot damage somewhat ?. I'm just going by the amount of ''toy lobbing'' going on atm. Plenty of Sorcs moaning but team instakill is feeling worst done by as we speak.

However talking with ''casters'' in the same echelons you group with Shade most of them were expecting a Nerf.

Casters have been top of the tree for over a year. Mass instakill, Massive DPS, LFM's for top end Raids for ''Blue Bars Only''. Reams of OP caster stuff right here some penned by your ''Axeryness'' himself

[psteen1]

give every class an awesome ability with no cool down and I would agree with Shade.

But everything has cool downs on this game. Everything. Why were barbs the exception? It didn't make sense. This nerf was overdue.

Make stunning blow and trip no cooldown. Make smites and divine sacrifice no cooldown. Make assassinate no cooldown. Then maybe Shade would have good point.

[BacardiSpecialist]

Other melee classes have AC,Saves,Evasion, instadeath moves,Barbs only had a clicky that costed HP.

Whats your point?

Why would someone make a Barbarian anymore?

For his STR and Frenzies?For his high Hp that he loses in 5 Epic Hits?

What is so OP about barbarians that other DPS classes are lacking?

But yeah Barbs are all about DPS take damage/deal damage,things other classes with their flexibility already doing more effectively (no babysitters/SF pot jugging/insane gearing)

And honestly whats in it for you?What class are you playing feeling threatened by Barbarians?

[psteen1]

Other melee classes have AC,Saves,Evasion, instadeath moves,Barbs only had a clicky that costed HP.

Whats your point?

Why would someone make a Barbarian anymore?

For his STR and Frenzies?For his high Hp that he loses in 5 Epic Hits?

What is so OP about barbarians that other DPS classes are lacking?

But yeah Barbs are all about DPS take damage/deal damage,things other classes with their flexibility already doing more effectively (no babysitters/SF pot jugging/insane gearing)

And honestly whats in it for you?What class are you playing feeling threatened by Barbarians?

My point was right there the first time. Everything else in the game has cooldowns. Why not this? It only makes logical sense.

Why would barbs be the only ones that are different?

[Thrudh]

In the current game, the FB PRE -is- the barbarian class.

As far as damage taken, being in the middle of a bunch of mobs means you take damage from the mobs as well, not just the ability. Compared to a wizard jumping into the same group of mobs, hitting ONE button ONCE and watching all the mobs die, this ability is far from what id call 'unbalanced".

Displace yourself with a Shroud clickable or hit your 50% Dodge, and wear your ghostly ring, then spamming Supreme Cleave with no cooldown means they die fast, and you "might" need a heal from the comic-reading cleric to top off after all the mobs are dead.

You can kill pretty fast with Supreme Cleave, especially in the 1-20 game. The mobs don't have that much time to hurt you, and if they are super-tough (i.e. elite epics), then pay attention to how many you gather up. Aggro-management is a skill (something the wizards will have to be careful of in elite epics too with the change to insta-death spells there).

[Thrudh]

Iwhen I perform a supreme cleave on pack of monsters, I generally lose about 30-40 hitpoints. That is FREE?

LOL.. Are you freaking serious? 30-40 hps is a big loss to you? You need a cleric on his "A" game to take care of your 30-40 lost hit points?

... last reply to you ever.

Ah, someone disagrees with you, so you squelch them.

[protokon]

really?


No...REALLY?

Shade, I stopped reading there. Sadly it was 70% of the way through your post. Wraith, shade coulda said make the cooldown 15s and you probably woulda jumped off the bridge after him anyway.

You make some good points but really....a barb is not difficult to keep up because of the frenzy/cleave damage, they are difficult to keep up because of the massive agro they generate with next to no damage mitigation.

You don't think the average player can push 3 buttons in 6-8 seconds? You don't think the average player can fit 2 extra feats on their quickbar? Oh, I get it, you two are roleplaying your class.

Carry on.

my thoughts exactly.

half the time I am windowed out watching youtube videos while healing a barbarian in the party. coming from the guy who plays divines 80% of the time :P

[Wraith_Sarevok]

You make some good points but really....a barb is not difficult to keep up because of the frenzy/cleave damage, they are difficult to keep up because of the massive agro they generate with next to no damage mitigation.

You don't think the average player can push 3 buttons in 6-8 seconds? You don't think the average player can fit 2 extra feats on their quickbar? Oh, I get it, you two are roleplaying your class.

That don't make no sense anymore.

Under the new system, barbarians can easily get something like 10-15% physical damage resistance on top of their base 7 DR just by wearing heavy armor. They have the same level of healing amp that they do on live... which translates into 150-200+% for geared fleshies and 100+% for WF. They have the default 5% AC "roll of 1" chance for attacks to miss them on top of a 5+% passive Dodge chance. Add Blur/Displacement for an additional 20-50% chance to avoid damage and another 10% Incorporeal chance from the easy-to-get Stalker Ring. Finally there's Improved Uncanny Dodge, which temporarily raises the Dodge chance to 50% every 1.5 minutes. We also have access to the Dread's 25% damage resistance action boost AND a 60-90+ HP boost from EDs and feats.

So with all those ways of avoiding damage, you STILL want to make the argument that barbarians are too hard to keep up? Or maybe the truth here is that you're afraid to play a healer the way they're meant to be played: you know... to HEAL other classes.

Even on live that argument doesn't hold up anywhere outside of Lord of Blades. Healing Amp, high HP, 7-9 DR, and the WASD keys are enough to keep barbarians up in almost all content. I demonstrated it when I soloed ETK and Sins elite at lvl 18.

I ran my character on both Monk and Kensai TRs and I STILL pulled more aggro than everyone else in my groups. So your argument that barbs pull too much aggro is silly. Any well-build melee is going to be dishing out a lot of damage and will pull multiple monster aggro towards them.

The average player really can't manage 3 keys. I know... I PuG more than most people. Your average player will forget to buff or rebuff Haste and Rage if others don't remind them. Now they are asking them to manage 3 more keys on top of all the temporary buffs that barbs have to keep an eye on. It's insane.

[psteen1]

That don't make no sense anymore.

Under the new system, barbarians can easily get something like 10-15% physical damage resistance on top of their base 7 DR just by wearing heavy armor. They have the same level of healing amp that they do on live... which translates into 150-200+% for geared fleshies and 100+% for WF. They have the default 5% AC "roll of 1" chance for attacks to miss them on top of a 5+% passive Dodge chance. Add Blur/Displacement for an additional 20-50% chance to avoid damage and another 10% Incorporeal chance from the easy-to-get Stalker Ring. Finally there's Improved Uncanny Dodge, which temporarily raises the Dodge chance to 50% every 1.5 minutes. We also have access to the Dread's 25% damage resistance action boost AND a 60-90+ HP boost from EDs and feats.

So with all those ways of avoiding damage, you STILL want to make the argument that barbarians are too hard to keep up? Or maybe the truth here is that you're afraid to play a healer the way they're meant to be played: you know... to HEAL other classes.

Even on live that argument doesn't hold up anywhere outside of Lord of Blades. Healing Amp, high HP, 7-9 DR, and the WASD keys are enough to keep barbarians up in almost all content. I demonstrated it when I soloed ETK and Sins elite at lvl 18.

I ran my character on both Monk and Kensai TRs and I STILL pulled more aggro than everyone else in my groups. So your argument that barbs pull too much aggro is silly. Any well-build melee is going to be dishing out a lot of damage and will pull multiple monster aggro towards them.

Isn't this (rather true) argument totally counter productive to the overall argument? You are saying "barbs have great survivability, great aggro pulling". If that is the case, then why give them great DPS as well? In that case, we should put supreme cleave back to the 6 second time to get things better balanced.