Supreme Cleave Change

[Shade]

In a game where the playerbase almost universally agrees melees are very far behind casters in the power curve, we get a fairly massive melee nerf. I don't get it.

But anyways I'll at least explain why this is a nerf as on paper some may not understand:

Live Supreme Cleave - Barbarians DEFINING Class ability. One of the main reasons to play a barb, and what makes it unique and different from a fighter.

Live Effects:
- Performs a greatcleave (exact same animation), except it has no cooldown and costs 4-12 hitpoints to activate (HP cost depends on dungeon scaling) (This is also not taking into account frenzy damage, which can be as much as 20-30 additional damage when hitting large groups of enemies, as the self damage is per enemy)

This is very nice not because its a great awesome animation that does lots of damage, it doesn't do increased damage, it doesn't swing faster then a regular attack and it doesnt even have a larger attack range then a regular two handed swing (except that it hits behind you like a glancing blow).

What makes it potent is the fact you can gather up lots of monsters and as long as your healer has tons of spells point and is on his A game to keep you going, you can do nearly your full melee damage to all enemies around you. So it makes Barbarians a great AOE class, much like sorcerers tho without the same AOE size and the huge disadvantage of requiring someone to heal you to fund your cleaves.

It was balanced. Powerful, but very costly in hitpoints, so it encouraged grouping and smart team play.

The beta version:
NEW: Frenzied Berserker Supreme Cleave now has a 3 second cooldown, and deals +2[W] additional damage.

So roughly a +300% cooldown (supreme had none, but took roughly 1 second to activate), but we get +2 w dmg.

Whats 2 W dmg on a Frenzy Berserker:
Well given I've lead many many raids and qualified nearly every pug player who signed up, I feel I'm well qualified to say what not only I use, but your average lvl20 bbn uses. And I'd confidently say that for the vast majority, that's a green steel Greataxe. Generally a Mineral2.

(Disclaimer: Yea my maths slightly inaccurate, but the overall result and end message is accurate.)

So GS Greataxe: 1d12 damage. Average 6.5.
+2 W = +13 damage.

Average non crit swing dmg of a 20 bbn, with pretty basic gear (no epics, shroud level stuff):
70-82 physical
42 glancing blow
6d6 frenzy ( 21 average)
3d6 bonus (holy and acidb, - 10.5 average)
= 133-144 damage per swing total

So we deal about 140 damage a swing, get over a hundred swings a minute.. In a 6 second window dealing damage in the 1300+ range is not uncommon.

So we get +26 damage every 6 seconds, ontop of our 1300 damage. EG: a 2% percent increase, plus a unquantifiable, but small increase to our AOE dps.

Versus before:
We get an unquantifiable (but generally agreed to be nice and large) increase to our CONSTANT aoe DPS.

Bottom-line:
It's a massive reduction to a barbarians performance.

Suggestions:

1. Please consider simply not putting this change live. This is something that will cause major polarization and really deserves a "Lets talk: Barbarian core ability changes" thread before it gets considered.
   
2. Otherwise I can offer a compromise, and simplification:
   

Currently, there are 3 cleaves, regular, great and supreme. 3 hotkeys isn't much to manage over a course of an entire quest if you only use them a few times, But it definitely is a lot for most players to manage in a 6-8 second window, and also tough to fit out on our every-increasingly busy hotbars (An epic barbarian will have no less then 15+ important active hotkeys/abilities they need to manage in a short time frame).. Plus its simply not fun to have to press 3 separate keys which all perform the exact same action, its monotonous. So lets simplify it and make all the feats/enhancements useful:

- Change great and supreme cleave into passive abilities. Since both require cleave, you'd still have an active one.
Proposed compromise:
Cleave:
- Performs a fast, wide arcing special melee attack that deals +10% damage (code it to use the current greatcleave animation (which is slightly faster and superior), and work like adrenaline, one hit only). Cooldown: 9 seconds.
Greatcleave:
This feat improves upon your cleave ability by reducing the cooldown by 4 seconds, and increasing the damage it deals to +10%.
Supreme Cleave (passive, toggle on off ability):
This toggle improves upon your cleave ability by reducing the cooldown by 5 seconds, and increasing the damge it deals by +5%, however it comes at the cost of costing 10 hitpoints per cleave.

So the net result would be:
Just cleave: Slightly improved as it now uses the better Gcleave animation and does a bit more dmg.
Greatcleave: Now useful to all classes, even barbarians. (This has the nice side affect of fixing the overwhelming critical prereqs, as no 100% useless feats would be required anymore)

Supreme: Still nerfed, but at least not as harshly. Net cooldown is now 4 seconds, and it deals +15% damage, which as a percentage, scales based on your power far better then the weird +[W] thing.

Get both? they stack. CD reduces to nothing (as now). and damage is increased. So bbns can keep their current power, at the cost of an additional feat.

PS: This is a continuation from the closed beta thread. The original thread had 181 replies, 90% of them opposing this nerf. Most didn't agree with my proposed comprimise either and would prefer just no nerf, tho a few did like it. The 10% or so argueing otherwise: Not a single one played a level20 bbn or had ever suggestion this ability should change in the past.

Not sure if im allowed to link the old thread or not, but its still viewable if you had access to it before.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Guessing that this is a repost for the open beta players to see...


Anyway yes, please do this suggestion!

We don't want Barbarians to turn into Monks where we have to push the same 3 key combinations to get the full damage potential out of the class. It's just so much more logical to have a single base Cleave ability and have the advanced feats changed into passive/active enhancements to that ability. That way, Cleave and Great Cleave don't feel like they're eating up feat slots on our melee builds and we can actually get some use out of them.

Barbarians will still have access to the same 0s cooldown Supreme Cleave that they have now with a % based damage boost that actually SCALES to tough content.

Fighters, Paladins, and possibly other builds like Monks, Tempest Rangers, or Favored Souls won't feel completely ripped off by taking cleave feats anymore because they can get some AoE killing ability out of them.

I'm impressed with Shade's suggested fix and I'd really like to see it in action.

[MRMechMan]

3 hotkeys is a lot for most playrs to manage in a 6-8 second window, and also tough to fit out on our every-increasingly busy hotbars..

We don't want Barbarians to turn into Monks where we have to push the same 3 key combinations to get the full damage potential out of the class.

really?


No...REALLY?

Shade, I stopped reading there. Sadly it was 70% of the way through your post. Wraith, shade coulda said make the cooldown 15s and you probably woulda jumped off the bridge after him anyway.

You make some good points but really....a barb is not difficult to keep up because of the frenzy/cleave damage, they are difficult to keep up because of the massive agro they generate with next to no damage mitigation.

You don't think the average player can push 3 buttons in 6-8 seconds? You don't think the average player can fit 2 extra feats on their quickbar? Oh, I get it, you two are roleplaying your class.

Carry on.

[Thrudh]

Wraith, shade coulda said make the cooldown 15s and you probably woulda jumped off the bridge after him anyway.

LOL.

Wraith really really likes Shade, that's for sure. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

[Chai]

I dont think the average barbarian can fit 2 extra feats onto their build. The buttons are easy to push.

They need to not put this into the game. Supreme cleave is not OP because the barbarian needs to be in the middle of lots of mobs for this to be really powerful and in that case they do take lots of damage. Its certainly not more powerful than a wizard jumping into the middle of the same group of mobs, hitting ONE button ONCE, and watching them all die, taking minimal damage compared to the barbarian who has to spam the same ability over and over again while taking damage to be effective.

[CheeseMilk]

They need to not put this into the game. Supreme cleave is not OP because the barbarian needs to be in the middle of lots of mobs for this to be really powerful and in that case they do take lots of damage. Its certainly not more powerful than a wizard jumping into the middle of the same group of mobs, hitting ONE button ONCE, and watching them all die, taking minimal damage compared to the barbarian who has to spam the same ability over and over again while taking damage to be effective.

Remember that a little AC can actually matter now, and that Barbs have uncanny dodge, which got a serious boost in power. And that where AC matters less, that same caster CAN'T jump into the middle of a bunch of mobs and kill them all in one shot. They can, however, jump in after the barb has "softened them up," and do that. Teamwork!

[Shade]

Remember that a little AC can actually matter now, and that Barbs have uncanny dodge, which got a serious boost in power. And that where AC matters less, that same caster CAN'T jump into the middle of a bunch of mobs and kill them all in one shot. They can, however, jump in after the barb has "softened them up," and do that. Teamwork!

Uncanny Dodge got nerfed in many situations actaully.

No more +6 reflex.

So what was before an excellent way to get past traps and survive casters, now has zero effect versus them.

So while it was buffed to some degree while fighting melee combatants, imo overall it was nerfed. Barbs are gona be **** at handling melee damage either way with this nerf, the insanely long 2 minute cooldown will ensure they die to melee damage regardless.

[protokon]

really?


No...REALLY?

Shade, I stopped reading there. Sadly it was 70% of the way through your post. Wraith, shade coulda said make the cooldown 15s and you probably woulda jumped off the bridge after him anyway.

You make some good points but really....a barb is not difficult to keep up because of the frenzy/cleave damage, they are difficult to keep up because of the massive agro they generate with next to no damage mitigation.

You don't think the average player can push 3 buttons in 6-8 seconds? You don't think the average player can fit 2 extra feats on their quickbar? Oh, I get it, you two are roleplaying your class.

Carry on.

my thoughts exactly.

half the time I am windowed out watching youtube videos while healing a barbarian in the party. coming from the guy who plays divines 80% of the time :P

[Wraith_Sarevok]

You make some good points but really....a barb is not difficult to keep up because of the frenzy/cleave damage, they are difficult to keep up because of the massive agro they generate with next to no damage mitigation.

You don't think the average player can push 3 buttons in 6-8 seconds? You don't think the average player can fit 2 extra feats on their quickbar? Oh, I get it, you two are roleplaying your class.

That don't make no sense anymore.

Under the new system, barbarians can easily get something like 10-15% physical damage resistance on top of their base 7 DR just by wearing heavy armor. They have the same level of healing amp that they do on live... which translates into 150-200+% for geared fleshies and 100+% for WF. They have the default 5% AC "roll of 1" chance for attacks to miss them on top of a 5+% passive Dodge chance. Add Blur/Displacement for an additional 20-50% chance to avoid damage and another 10% Incorporeal chance from the easy-to-get Stalker Ring. Finally there's Improved Uncanny Dodge, which temporarily raises the Dodge chance to 50% every 1.5 minutes. We also have access to the Dread's 25% damage resistance action boost AND a 60-90+ HP boost from EDs and feats.

So with all those ways of avoiding damage, you STILL want to make the argument that barbarians are too hard to keep up? Or maybe the truth here is that you're afraid to play a healer the way they're meant to be played: you know... to HEAL other classes.

Even on live that argument doesn't hold up anywhere outside of Lord of Blades. Healing Amp, high HP, 7-9 DR, and the WASD keys are enough to keep barbarians up in almost all content. I demonstrated it when I soloed ETK and Sins elite at lvl 18.

I ran my character on both Monk and Kensai TRs and I STILL pulled more aggro than everyone else in my groups. So your argument that barbs pull too much aggro is silly. Any well-build melee is going to be dishing out a lot of damage and will pull multiple monster aggro towards them.

The average player really can't manage 3 keys. I know... I PuG more than most people. Your average player will forget to buff or rebuff Haste and Rage if others don't remind them. Now they are asking them to manage 3 more keys on top of all the temporary buffs that barbs have to keep an eye on. It's insane.

[psteen1]

That don't make no sense anymore.

Under the new system, barbarians can easily get something like 10-15% physical damage resistance on top of their base 7 DR just by wearing heavy armor. They have the same level of healing amp that they do on live... which translates into 150-200+% for geared fleshies and 100+% for WF. They have the default 5% AC "roll of 1" chance for attacks to miss them on top of a 5+% passive Dodge chance. Add Blur/Displacement for an additional 20-50% chance to avoid damage and another 10% Incorporeal chance from the easy-to-get Stalker Ring. Finally there's Improved Uncanny Dodge, which temporarily raises the Dodge chance to 50% every 1.5 minutes. We also have access to the Dread's 25% damage resistance action boost AND a 60-90+ HP boost from EDs and feats.

So with all those ways of avoiding damage, you STILL want to make the argument that barbarians are too hard to keep up? Or maybe the truth here is that you're afraid to play a healer the way they're meant to be played: you know... to HEAL other classes.

Even on live that argument doesn't hold up anywhere outside of Lord of Blades. Healing Amp, high HP, 7-9 DR, and the WASD keys are enough to keep barbarians up in almost all content. I demonstrated it when I soloed ETK and Sins elite at lvl 18.

I ran my character on both Monk and Kensai TRs and I STILL pulled more aggro than everyone else in my groups. So your argument that barbs pull too much aggro is silly. Any well-build melee is going to be dishing out a lot of damage and will pull multiple monster aggro towards them.

Isn't this (rather true) argument totally counter productive to the overall argument? You are saying "barbs have great survivability, great aggro pulling". If that is the case, then why give them great DPS as well? In that case, we should put supreme cleave back to the 6 second time to get things better balanced.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Isn't this (rather true) argument totally counter productive to the overall argument? You are saying "barbs have great survivability, great aggro pulling". If that is the case, then why give them great DPS as well? In that case, we should put supreme cleave back to the 6 second time to get things better balanced.

Wait, aren't you disagreeing with Shade? His argument is that Supreme Cleave is balanced because a barb takes so much damage from feat itself, plus Frenzies, plus all the aggro he generates.

Sounds like you agree more with me that barbs have solid damage mitigation, and do NOT need a cleric on his "A" game to stay alive when using Supreme Cleave.

No, the guy I quoted said that barbarians are "difficult to keep up." To me, that means you can't keep them up... on their feet... alive... not dead. Which is of course not true. My barbarian hardly dies at all. In fact the only times I've seen him die recently were either:

1.) When a raid wipes.

or

2.) In the Lord of Blades.

Oh well maybe he meant that barbarians are difficult to keep up to full HP. But that's also not true because any decently geared lvl 20 barb has SOME healing amp, and even without it, any decently geared lvl 20 healer class should be able to full-heal the barb with just 1 Heal spell. I know that healers can keep my barb healed with just Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Panacea, and Positive Energy Burst so this isn't unrealistic.

Barbs DON'T have solid damage mitigation on LIVE.

They have more of it now on the beta. And it requires a modest amount of gear to reach that point. But yeah in my opinion, under the new system barbs are much more easily able to tank epic Lord of Blades... even better than a stalwart can! Because the stalwart can't contribute anywhere near the same level of DPS and hate generation.

But Supreme Cleave does do a lot of self-damage. I use it all the time now for the 4th glancing blow and after about 20 seconds of constant use, I've lost 100 HP. Either the healer or I have to keep an eye on my HP because it drains like a fast-acting poison. It's a great way to balance the 0s cooldown.

What's changed is this: New content monsters have a LOT more HP and deal a LOT more damage than old content monsters. Barbarians are designed to be the go-to sustained damage-dealing class in this game right? The hot knife through goblin butter... the ultimate spear... gatling gun... machine gun... mini gun... The Terminator... etc. From what I can tell there are two types of enemies in this game:

Old or Low-Level Content. These types of monsters generally have poor HP and deal less damage than equivalent-level new content. My barbarian typically just mows into them and cuts them down in a few hits because their HP is so low. He takes damage and can basically solo most of the quest himself with just self-healing. Quest bosses of this type have low HP/damage, are easy to solo, and he doesn't need much help with them. Recently, many of the old raid bosses (Abbot, Reaver, Arraetrikos) have had their HP boosted to match new content, but their damage is still more or less at the old level.

New Content. These types of monsters have massive amounts of HP and deal significantly more damage than the older stuff. For example, Servants of the Overlord. This is insanely difficult to solo on a barbarian yet it's only a lvl 18 quest. Most of this is due to the Khyber Reavers, which have tons of HP and deal lots of damage with their meteor projectiles. Sins of Attrition elite, a lvl 21 quest, is MUCH easier by comparison. Raid bosses of this type are just devastating. Epic Lord of Blades does something like 200+ damage per swing and has more HP than elite suulomades in VoD! It's actually preferred to use a specialized damage resistance or AC tank against him instead of a barbarian, although this will change with the new defense system. But something like elite Horoth? Pff... easy on a barbarian.

Now what hasn't changed? Melee damage. Static +STR and +damage items scale poorly with the massive amounts of HP that new monsters have. +2d6 and +4d6 elemental damage scales poorly. Glancing Blows scale very poorly behind the new x8 crits that we can dish out. They don't even get the +50% boost against helpless monsters. The sneak attack mechanic is unreliable in most content because it requires the monster NOT be aggroed towards you or to be helpless. It's absolutely worthless when you're the tank. +[W] damage does NOT solve any of these problems!

Spellcasters are leading this game. Anyone with eyes can see that. My barb can't keep up with a geared PM instakilling 6 monsters at a time. Every time I'm close to landing the finishing blow, the caster wipes the monster with a FoD. It's one of the reasons I specced my barb for dealing damage to raid bosses. Because raids are just about the only place where I feel my barb is contributing something. In most quests he feels completely useless and the blue-bar classes can just solo the whole thing.

Barbarians really do need more damage to keep up with new monsters. They need it to keep up with spellcasters. Nerfing them isn't the solution, buffing them is!

[B0ltdrag0n]

That don't make no sense anymore.

Under the new system, barbarians can easily get something like 10-15% physical damage resistance on top of their base 7 DR just by wearing heavy armor. They have the same level of healing amp that they do on live... which translates into 150-200+% for geared fleshies and 100+% for WF. They have the default 5% AC "roll of 1" chance for attacks to miss them on top of a 5+% passive Dodge chance. Add Blur/Displacement for an additional 20-50% chance to avoid damage and another 10% Incorporeal chance from the easy-to-get Stalker Ring. Finally there's Improved Uncanny Dodge, which temporarily raises the Dodge chance to 50% every 1.5 minutes. We also have access to the Dread's 25% damage resistance action boost AND a 60-90+ HP boost from EDs and feats.

So with all those ways of avoiding damage, you STILL want to make the argument that barbarians are too hard to keep up? Or maybe the truth here is that you're afraid to play a healer the way they're meant to be played: you know... to HEAL other classes.

It was the OP that made comment of Healers needing to be on their A game. Not the person you quoted.

The average player really can't manage 3 keys. I know... I PuG more than most people. Your average player will forget to buff or rebuff Haste and Rage if others don't remind them. Now they are asking them to manage 3 more keys on top of all the temporary buffs that barbs have to keep an eye on. It's insane.

That is not true. The average player manages many more hot keys than you give credit to. Forgetting to buff/rebuff isn't not managing hot keys it could be attributed to many things from a memory lapse, to not watching timers to not wanting to waste sp on the guy zerging off in the distance who wont come back for buffs when you call it.

[psteen1]

The average player really can't manage 3 keys. I know... I PuG more than most people. Your average player will forget to buff or rebuff Haste and Rage if others don't remind them. Now they are asking them to manage 3 more keys on top of all the temporary buffs that barbs have to keep an eye on. It's insane.

In what world is managing this stuff hard? 3 keys? This argument doesn't make any sense.

[Shade]

In what world is managing this stuff hard? 3 keys? This argument doesn't make any sense.

In the world of the vast majority of players.

Most of which dont post on the forums.

DDO is very hard for a lot of bbn players where they only have 9 hotkey to manage:
1. rage
2. frenzy
3. death frenzy
4. uncanny dodge
5. damage boost
6. haste boost (common 18/2 bbn/ftr build)
7. Trip
8. Stunning blow
9. Supreme cleave

As someone who often leads pug raids and analysyys what causes us to win or lose carefully, I often inspect other players buffs during battle. I can safely say over 75% forget to even use frenzy, let alone boosts and cleaves. Most can at least manag to remember to re-rage, tho it can them upwards of 30 seconds of being unraged to notice.

A few players i actaully asked to use frenzy and cleaves, flat out told me they would not as he believed the hitpoint cost was too high.

Not everyone is a game master. Adding more complexity to the game doesnt always make it more fun.

[Thrudh]

That don't make no sense anymore.

Under the new system, barbarians can easily get something like 10-15% physical damage resistance on top of their base 7 DR just by wearing heavy armor. They have the same level of healing amp that they do on live... which translates into 150-200+% for geared fleshies and 100+% for WF. They have the default 5% AC "roll of 1" chance for attacks to miss them on top of a 5+% passive Dodge chance. Add Blur/Displacement for an additional 20-50% chance to avoid damage and another 10% Incorporeal chance from the easy-to-get Stalker Ring. Finally there's Improved Uncanny Dodge, which temporarily raises the Dodge chance to 50% every 1.5 minutes. We also have access to the Dread's 25% damage resistance action boost AND a 60-90+ HP boost from EDs and feats.

So with all those ways of avoiding damage, you STILL want to make the argument that barbarians are too hard to keep up? Or maybe the truth here is that you're afraid to play a healer the way they're meant to be played: you know... to HEAL other classes.

Even on live that argument doesn't hold up anywhere outside of Lord of Blades. Healing Amp, high HP, 7-9 DR, and the WASD keys are enough to keep barbarians up in almost all content. I demonstrated it when I soloed ETK and Sins elite at lvl 18.

I ran my character on both Monk and Kensai TRs and I STILL pulled more aggro than everyone else in my groups. So your argument that barbs pull too much aggro is silly. Any well-build melee is going to be dishing out a lot of damage and will pull multiple monster aggro towards them.

The average player really can't manage 3 keys. I know... I PuG more than most people. Your average player will forget to buff or rebuff Haste and Rage if others don't remind them. Now they are asking them to manage 3 more keys on top of all the temporary buffs that barbs have to keep an eye on. It's insane.

Wait, aren't you disagreeing with Shade? His argument is that Supreme Cleave is balanced because a barb takes so much damage from feat itself, plus Frenzies, plus all the aggro he generates.

Sounds like you agree more with me that barbs have solid damage mitigation, and do NOT need a cleric on his "A" game to stay alive when using Supreme Cleave.

[MRMechMan]

That don't make no sense anymore.

Barbs are easy to keep up now. Mobs in elite epics might be another story when you supreme agro 5-10 of them.

Honestly, it sucks that your signature ability got nerfed but other builds got the shaft so much harder that it's not even comparable.

Supreme cleave or no, a barb is more useful in beta than on live.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Barbs are easy to keep up now. Mobs in elite epics might be another story when you supreme agro 5-10 of them.

Honestly, it sucks that your signature ability got nerfed but other builds got the shaft so much harder that it's not even comparable.

Supreme cleave or no, a barb is more useful in beta than on live.

Like which builds?

The only people I've seen complaining are maxed-out AC builds because diminishing returns basically ruined them. But that's like <5% of the builds out there.

Wizards and Sorcs apparently got buffed. Rangers got buffed from what I saw in the Shiradai ED. All melees benefit from Dreadnought. Favored Souls are still overpowered. Bards and Artis get buffed from the spell DC enhancements. Druids are looking good. Maybe I haven't heard any news on Clerics, but then again they're the primary heal class and not big on offense.

What, you're comparing the Kensai losing a couple of stacking STR points from his Power Surge to this massive nerf?

[Eme]

well, cleave was the fun part of barbarians, and felt like you were raging and out of control..
it felt great running into mass mobs and spinning like crazy

this nerf will kill all the fun and feel of being a barbarian,,,, RARRR!!!!.. hang on a few seonds while i compose myself... RARRRR!!!!!

[dubyprime]

At initial glance I disliked the change. Now I completely disagree with Shade.

Supreme Cleave is not a defining class ability for barbs. At one point in the game barbarians didn't even have supreme cleave. It is not a core barb skill or ability. It is simply a bonus granted from a PRE line.

Changing the animations of various cleaves is a horrible idea. While it will improve the activation time of Great axe and ESOS wielding barbarians like Shade, other classes/fighting styles that use cleave/great cleave will suffer.

Barbarian is probably the easiest of all my characters when it comes to hot bar management. The argument regarding hot bar/button management and barbarians is simply laughable.
Secondarily Hot bar management is a player skill issue. Dumbing down active abilities is catering to a lower skill level. Which seems contrary to the argument of smart team play.

It is not a massive reduction in barbarian performance, it is situational.

Spamming supreme cleave does swing faster than the regular animation. It is noticeable in various videos. I will however concede this argument as it is not worth my time to prove.

The devs made an honest effort by reducing the cool downs of various cleaves. I think that was a reasonable compromise here.