Is There ANY Cleric Love?

[ShadowFlash]

I've been pouring over the forums for a while now, and the general consensus seems to be that insta-kill wizards and "divines" get a substantial kick in the pants.

"divines" are mostly referring to FvS's from what I can tell. I can't find the destiny info on clerics as well. There seems to be "some" hope for my melee-cleric, and my son's meele-soul...but it's a lot to digest.

Anyone have any POSITIVE observations I've missed for divines? If clerics are being pidgeon-holed into even more of a "healer mode" do they get major bonuses to this at least to compensate for their reduced SP (compared to FvS)

Does the "spell-power" system affect the RS Bursts and Aura as well? within what limitations? A battle-cleric could still be viable, I guess if the aura can be severely amped.

Random Ponderings....
ShadowFlash

[Chette]

Nope, there's not.
You don't even get an epic destiny.

But clerics are supposed to be heal bots anyway from the looks of things so...have fun.

[flaggson]

searing light changed to silver fire? ... not sure if it's a buff... but it's something like 2d4/lvl up to lvl 20 now ..

[sirgog]

Radiant Servant aura got a huge, huge boost from the Spellpower changes.

Any spell cast without Empower or Maximize goes up up up in damage, and aura don't take metamagics other than Empower Healing. (Edit: Forgot Burst does take maximize)

In one test I did, a Cleric's aura was healing a monk for well over 100 per non-crit tick. (The monk had decent but not silly amp)



Oh and Mass Heal heals for a lot more too but that isn't often relevant. Non-metamagiced Mass Cures hit for a lot more too but scale worse with Maximize and Empower (so say in Shroud cycling three masses without metas is a viable approach if your group is too squishy to survive between Mass Heals)

[Chette]

Radiant Servant abilities got a huge, huge boost from the Spellpower changes.

Any spell cast without Empower or Maximize goes up up up in damage, and burst/aura don't take metamagics other than Empower Healing.

Burst is absolutely affected my maximize and empower on live. Only aura is not.

[ShadowFlash]

Radiant Servant abilities got a huge, huge boost from the Spellpower changes.

Any spell cast without Empower or Maximize goes up up up in damage, and burst/aura don't take metamagics other than Empower Healing.

In one test I did, a Cleric's aura was healing a monk for well over 100 per non-crit tick. (The monk had decent but not silly amp)



Oh and Mass Heal heals for a lot more too but that isn't often relevant. Non-metamagiced Mass Cures hit for a lot more too but scale worse with Maximize and Empower (so say in Shroud cycling three masses without metas is a viable approach if your group is too squishy to survive between Mass Heals)

Thanks sirgog...this is NOT a doom thread, I'm just looking to adjust. Just so I understand better..
Burst/Aura no loner take any meta's other than Empower heal, BUT are boosted by the new spell power system? I'm assuming this is what you were referring to by the 100hp tics.

In the release notes...
Divine (Clerics, Favored Souls, Paladins) may select from:
Exalted Angel
Unyielding Sentinel

While not specifically getting their own destiny..they can freely spec into either of these 2? That dosen't sound too bad at first glance, as caster's can become more FvSish...and battle-clerics can gain a lot of paladin abilities. Is this how it works?

BTW, I gree with you sirgog, that this seems to have potential for "smart" party play...BUT, it's alot to digest

ShadowFlash

[Jingwei]

Radiant burst nerfed. Aura may be better.

Mass heal and Heal now buffed, because healing spell power now effects them.
(empowered maximized) Mass Cure spells nerfed.

(empowered maximized) Blade barrier nerfed, plus general lack of impulse boosting items.
(empowered maximized) divine punishment nerfed, especially when combined with general lack of radiance boosting items.
(heightened) cometfall used for crowd control gets a damage boost.
Implosion/destruction/slay living surprised nerfed on hard+ epic content.

Clonk nerfed. (All pajama wearing monk splashes seem to have gotten the nerf bat.)
Looks like cleric with full plate and shield may get a relatively large defensive boost.

Non-hand slot devotion items (Epic chainmail coif, epic mask of comedy) not giving bonuses comparable to other epic items (compare to epic ring of elemental essence). Hjealing ToD ring may be acceptable substitute, but still not a full 90 spell power). Don't know about any new non-hand slot items that could act as replacements.

Extra two feats will probably help melee divines fit in relevant melee feats.
To hit bonus now not really a thing, so just need to keep divine favor running for damage boost, divine power not so much.

[Malshier]

No.

Only hate.

[scoobmx]

Radiant burst nerfed. Aura may be better.

Mass heal and Heal now buffed, because healing spell power now effects them.
(empowered maximized) Mass Cure spells nerfed.

(empowered maximized) Blade barrier nerfed, plus general lack of impulse boosting items.
(empowered maximized) divine punishment nerfed, especially when combined with general lack of radiance boosting items.
(heightened) cometfall used for crowd control gets a damage boost.
Implosion/destruction/slay living surprised nerfed on hard+ epic content.

Clonk nerfed. (All pajama wearing monk splashes seem to have gotten the nerf bat.)
Looks like cleric with full plate and shield may get a relatively large defensive boost.

Non-hand slot devotion items (Epic chainmail coif, epic mask of comedy) not giving bonuses comparable to other epic items (compare to epic ring of elemental essence). Hjealing ToD ring may be acceptable substitute, but still not a full 90 spell power). Don't know about any new non-hand slot items that could act as replacements.

Extra two feats will probably help melee divines fit in relevant melee feats.
To hit bonus now not really a thing, so just need to keep divine favor running for damage boost, divine power not so much.

Soooo. I don't understand. Is my WF fvs nerfed across the board? Worse mass cures, worse spell damage, no disease/poison immunity, and non relevance of to-hit? What is the point of lord of blades fvs? I thought it was great sword proficiency? Why nerf an already suboptimal build? Devs don't think through and analyze their choices...

[Chette]

Soooo. I don't understand. Is my WF fvs nerfed across the board? Worse mass cures, worse spell damage, no disease/poison immunity, and non relevance of to-hit? What is the point of lord of blades fvs? I thought it was great sword proficiency? Why nerf an already suboptimal build? Devs don't think through and analyze their choices...

Ya, melee divines took a pretty big hit due to the lack of spell power items relevant to divine spells that are not weapons.

[decease]

no.. they don't love cleric T_T nor do they love sorc.. they do love wf though..

[Ziindarax]

Soooo. I don't understand. Is my WF fvs nerfed across the board? Worse mass cures, worse spell damage, no disease/poison immunity, and non relevance of to-hit? What is the point of lord of blades fvs? I thought it was great sword proficiency? Why nerf an already suboptimal build? Devs don't think through and analyze their choices...

Actually, Warforged Favored Soul Melee's got a buff. Unless something's changed with this going Open, my Warforged Favored Soul was able to hit mobs more reliably with power attack on, using a weapon he wasn't proficient in (great-axes), and rarely needed to cast Divine Power/Favor.

With Angel, my Warforged had better ranged DPS (and renewal was quite nice too), and with Sentinel, he was much stronger as a tank/melee (good aligned Soul-Survivors can take the Annoint/purify weapons enhancements for up to 18 extra points of damage against evil-aligned mobs, on top of not needing to waste a red augment slot on something to breach Good DR)... Unless something has changed (though from the looks of it, most the changes seem final-ish, and it's just stress testing now).

In short, Warforged melee FvS benefit greatly from both Divine destinies whereas caster FvS only really benefit from the Exalted Angel.

[ShadowFlash]

Ya, melee divines took a pretty big hit due to the lack of spell power items relevant to divine spells that are not weapons.

That's an interesting perspective...I haven't looked at gearing yet. Both destinies seem to have enough melee flavor to make them still viable. My heavy CHA Battle-Cleric may actually make it out of this OK. To-Hit is my issue currently. I'm not sure yet why everyone is referring to divine power no longer being as neccessary, but it's good news to me, if it's true.

I'm still wrapping my brain around spellpower...I thought gearing was hard on a heal/light/melee cleric before...now, yikes!

ShadowFlash

[BTIGER]

With the 25% proficiency bonus, Power attack should be more viable in more situations now for melee healers.

The claim that a Warforged FVS is hitting more with a non-proficient great axe w/ Power attack doesn't really make any sense to me right now though.

[Chette]

That's an interesting perspective...I haven't looked at gearing yet. Both destinies seem to have enough melee flavor to make them still viable. My heavy CHA Battle-Cleric may actually make it out of this OK. To-Hit is my issue currently. I'm not sure yet why everyone is referring to divine power no longer being as neccessary, but it's good news to me, if it's true.

I'm still wrapping my brain around spellpower...I thought gearing was hard on a heal/light/melee cleric before...now, yikes!

ShadowFlash

Yes, unfortunately there are quire a few nice spellpower items for elemental spells (especially from the challenges) but there isn't really anything for radiance or impact, and only a few devotion options, all of which fall below the 90 spellpower of the elemental items. Alchemicals are an option for casting divines, but don't really help a melee divine. Perhaps there will be some more flexible items in the new content, but regardless, the biggest hit you will probably be taking as a melee divine is that you now have to slot 3 spell power effects on your body.

[Artagon]

To-Hit is my issue currently. I'm not sure yet why everyone is referring to divine power no longer being as neccessary, but it's good news to me, if it's true.
ShadowFlash

Effectively.. everyone got a +25% bonus to hit out of the mod.. and you get glancing blows on 2+.

Basically think of it like this.. if you are not proficient in a weapon, you have the same attack bonus you had before in a proficient weapon.. if you ARE proficient, you get a +25% buff to your chance to hit (not to be confused with attack bonus).

[ShadowFlash]

Thanks to everyone so far

For my play-style at least, I make generous use out of weapon swaps for "casting-mode" so I think I'll be alright as long as there is no reason for them to be perma-quipped.

Dwarf 17/2/1 Cleric/Monk/Fighter for reference (not-really-a-clonk)
Healing "mode" = Staff of Fleshaping
Light "mode" = Luminous Truth

Plans for dual-wielding Alchemical "casting kamas" covering hjeals,blade barrier,light,and fire (just 'cause that's how it works out crafting)

I assume all of these are being changed to the relative spellpower attributes?

"Melee Mode", I get wierd, and dual wield D-axes, so the "clonk" supposed-nerf shouldn't effect me much at all, as all I used monk for was the feats, an evasion crutch, and baby-water for a few xtra SP while shrining...

I can manage this all on the fly right now pretty easily (I use 27 hot-keys regularily) so for my gear planning/playstyle, I don't think "caster weapoms are a deal-breaker.

I think those who have perma-specced into only one area would be affected most by the looks of it. Both destinies seem to offer the "versatility" that attracts me to clerics...here's to hoping at least

ShadowFlash

[Jingwei]

Here's that sample:

Me, on my FVS life, vs epic Malicia (AC 68):
wielding long swords: +5 HB silver of greater bane and +5 HB silver of imp destruction

15 bab
5 divine power
3 divine favor
1 sov host enhancement
-4 twf
4 greater heroism
4 +4 attack trinket
1 haste
9 weapon (main hand)
15 strength
4 sneak attack (epic brawling gloves)
8 improved destruction
=
(effective 65)

So I was hitting her on a 3 (90% hit rate) with main hand attacks before, even on first part of the attack chain

New to hit, using the same stuff:

57 attack bonus + 10.5 / (60 (debuffed from imp destruction) * 2) + .25 = 0.8125. Rounds to 80%.

Now, what if I drop the imp destruction, the +4 attack trinket, divine power, and add power attack?
My attack bonus drops to 57 -5 -4 -5 = 43, and I;m now trying to hit an AC of 68, rather than 60.

43 + 10.5 / (68 * 2) + .25 = 0.643..., rounds to 65%. So, by giving up 14 points of attack bonus and 8 points of AC debuff, I lost 15% to hit.

If I keep the same gear, but power attack, my hit chance stays at 80%.

If I drop imp destruction off hand weapon for another greater bane, 75%. If I add power attack 70%. If I drop the +4 attack trinket still 70%.

A FVS who started with a strength of 10 (so 16 after item), and using my gear would hit Malicia 65% of the time, and if they just whipped out the club of the holy flame and swung it around:

15 bab
-1 weapon
3 strength
=
17

They'd hit Malicia 50% of the time.

----------

[edit] Hmm, thinking about ti, I not sure I was hitting 40 strength, maybe only 34 or 36? Well, examples still about the same...

[scoobmx]

Actually, Warforged Favored Soul Melee's got a buff. Unless something's changed with this going Open, my Warforged Favored Soul was able to hit mobs more reliably with power attack on, using a weapon he wasn't proficient in (great-axes), and rarely needed to cast Divine Power/Favor.

This seems more like trying to scrape the bottom here - it's not LOB FVS's particularly that got this kind of buff, it's melees in general who aren't using a proficient weapon. But why you're using a greataxe on a LOB FVS is beyond me - the greatsword proficiency autogrant and additional greatsword damage are the standout features. It certainly isn't the free shield or the bladesworn transformation, I can tell you that.

Personally, I'm using an ESOS with power attack on and can currently hit almost everything on a 2. I'm guessing that this won't be true after U14. Therefore it is considered a nerf.

[Jingwei]

Soooo. I don't understand. Is my WF fvs nerfed across the board? Worse mass cures, worse spell damage, no disease/poison immunity, and non relevance of to-hit? What is the point of lord of blades fvs? I thought it was great sword proficiency? Why nerf an already suboptimal build? Devs don't think through and analyze their choices...

WF power attack looks pretty good, in that it doesn't effect your to hit any more than basic power attack does (around 5%).

Adamantine body may provide reasonable AC/PRR since docents now seem to scale their bonuses based on what body type you have.

Using proficient weapons now the biggest possible boost to hit (25%), so being proficient with great swords a good thing. Though epink axe now not such a good option for you anymore.

Looks like there will now be easy to acquire 30% healing amp gloves, so gearing will now be easier. Don't need to grind for eclaw gloves anymore.