Epic feats

[ShadowFlash]

My current leveling build here....
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...29#post4343429
will be taking cleave and great cleave to qualify for overwhelming critical.

It's a tough choice for me, because I'm sacrificing quickdraw (which is much needed for this playstyle). I know (great) cleave is not neccessarily a DPS gain for TWF, but for my particular group..it is a aggro tool. I need cleave for my fighter ED anyhow, so at that point, I might as well upgrade to great cleave to get OC.

I like all the requirements so far for Epic Feats on all my household's builds (9 toons total) . They all will not qualify for what they idealy want without an LR, but the logic behind them seems fair.

ShadowFlash

[glowbug]

I'm not so sure.

I know the THF will get more use out of Cleave and Great Cleave (from what I understand they could still be useful in a highly situational manor for a TWF [surrounded by enemies where hitting them all would be more DPS than swinging normally]), but I think that for Overwhelming Critical itself it would be more beneficial to a Khopesh than any other weapon.

17-18 3x, 19-20 4x just seems so good.


In terms of critical power (range * [1 - critical multiplier]), OS increases the critical power by 2. Khopesh is still on top at a 10.

have to chime in and say (again)

increasing the crit multiplier on 19-20 is the same damage increase on a sickle as it is on a khopesh. +1 W, +1 STR bonus, +1 damage bonus on rolls of 19 and 20. This feat does not improve any weapon more than any other weapon of the same style (1h vs, 1h, or 2h vs. 2h) Khopesh comes out on top because it was already on top, but the feat is equally valuable to any player regardless of the weapon type they use

Grim

[AylinIsAwesome]

have to chime in and say (again)

increasing the crit multiplier on 19-20 is the same damage increase on a sickle as it is on a khopesh. +1 W, +1 STR bonus, +1 damage bonus on rolls of 19 and 20. This feat does not improve any weapon more than any other weapon of the same style (1h vs, 1h, or 2h vs. 2h) Khopesh comes out on top because it was already on top, but the feat is equally valuable to any player regardless of the weapon type they use

Grim

Actually, thinking about it, it's more valuable to weapons that have low critical profiles to begin with (like the D-Axe), since it's more of a relative increase (6/4 > 10/8, for example). So what I said before was incorrect.

That said however, I still think that spending two feats on marginally useful pre-reqs is worth it for TWF characters. +2 critical profile is literally the difference between a longsword and a scimitar.

[ShadowFlash]

Actually, thinking about it, it's more valuable to weapons that have low critical profiles to begin with (like the D-Axe), since it's more of a relative increase (6/4 > 10/8, for example). So what I said before was incorrect.

That said however, I still think that spending two feats on marginally useful pre-reqs is worth it for TWF characters. +2 critical profile is literally the difference between a longsword and a scimitar.

Which is a main reason (other than cleave being an ED qualifier) I'll work towards is. TWF'ing D. Axes has always been viable for a dwarf, and the D.Axes strength is in it's base damage. Anything improving upon this strength has a higher potential for improvement than other weapons. I haven't crunched all the numbers yet, and probablly won't until release...but my gut says D.Axes are getting a rather sizable boost, relative to other weapons.

TL : DR
D.Axes get more "mileage" out of OC than any other weapon.

ShadowFlash

[lucid8]

The difference between weapons with this feat is so marginal it's almost not worth evaluating. However the character behind it is. A weapons critical multiplier efficiency is based on it's initial band, when set at 19-20 it treats all weapons the same besides the small base damage difference, but put this on a character that adds str and damage mods the difference is barely worth noting especially on dedicated DPS melee. in fact after adding in all the damage mods on a critical: seeker, str, damage buffs, the difference is not even 1% on most weapon comparisons making it pretty much the same effect on all weapons. That is unless you don't plan on adding your character stats to the weapon.

P.S. Shadowflash saying D axes get more mileage out of OC than any other weapon is false. They are tied with bastard swords for 1 handers, and great axes and great swords get more. But as stated the difference once applied to a character is minimal

[ShadowFlash]

The difference between weapons with this feat is so marginal it's almost not worth evaluating. However the character behind it is. A weapons critical multiplier efficiency is based on it's initial band, when set at 19-20 it treats all weapons the same besides the small base damage difference, but put this on a character that adds str and damage mods the difference is barely worth noting especially on dedicated DPS melee. in fact after adding in all the damage mods on a critical: seeker, str, damage buffs, the difference is not even 1% on most weapon comparisons making it pretty much the same effect on all weapons. That is unless you don't plan on adding your character stats to the weapon.

P.S. Shadowflash saying D axes get more mileage out of OC than any other weapon is false. They are tied with bastard swords for 1 handers, and great axes and great swords get more. But as stated the difference once applied to a character is minimal

First, I was referring to TWFing, as I implied by mentioning the questionable cleave pre-reqs, but maybe that wasn't clear. Second, tied with Bastard swords only if the toon isn't a Dwarf....which in my exampled case is..which pushes it over the top...just barely...with a bunch of AP spent doing it...with the Bastard Sword having no means to compensate. So I wouldn't say 'false' I did also throw in the 'no math done yet' and 'gut-feeling' disclaimers

So I'll clarify my 'gut' instinct by saying...
The most 'mileage' of Overwhelming Critical to be had, when TWFing, ignoring the cleave pre-req sacrifices, and ignoring named items, is a Dwarven Axe...in the hands of a Dwarf...who took the racial lines... there, happy?

ShadowFlash

[lucid8]

First, I was referring to TWFing, as I implied by mentioning the questionable cleave pre-reqs, but maybe that wasn't clear. Second, tied with Bastard swords only if the toon isn't a Dwarf....which in my exampled case is..which pushes it over the top...just barely...with a bunch of AP spent doing it...with the Bastard Sword having no means to compensate. So I wouldn't say 'false' I did also throw in the 'no math done yet' and 'gut-feeling' disclaimers

So I'll clarify my 'gut' instinct by saying...
The most 'mileage' of Overwhelming Critical to be had, when TWFing, ignoring the cleave pre-req sacrifices, and ignoring named items, is a Dwarven Axe...in the hands of a Dwarf...who took the racial lines... there, happy?

ShadowFlash

Well technically the chimera epic bastard sword does more than any dwarven axe if unlocked, but yes I'm happy now

[ShadowFlash]

Well technically the chimera epic bastard sword does more than any dwarven axe if unlocked, but yes I'm happy now

Ah Ha! see, I was one step ahead of you with the 'ignoring named items' portions but you get my point...lol

ShadowFlash

[Emili]

Because they are pulling the feat requirements from the pen and paper material, which assumed that players would be able to qualify for stat prerequisites with +4 and +6 stat items in addition to tomes (and other feats, like the Great <stat> feats, and class abilities), and because in PnP there were many more epic feats to choose from, so it was less of a penalty for you to be unable to qualify for some of the ones that seem attractive.

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A
character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc
barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill
(gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat
feat at the same time.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13
because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power
Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met. A prerequisite
may not be met by use of temporary means, worn, held or spell.

In order to get a 21 in DDO, you need a much higher starting stat than to hit the same value in PnP, and investment in some stats is simply not worthwhile. With the game making to-hit an issue again (possibly), you lose quite a bit of power in order to get your 21 Con for Epic Toughness. And it probably isn't a choice between +2 Str and +2 Con at creation... There's just too little return on starting with above a 16 Con for most non-casters when you kind of need some points in other stats. A 23 Wis is even worse, and has lower returns, even, than pumping Con.

The reason D&D Epic feats are so deep in prereq is an actual Epic level character gains "class bonus" feats - every class has least 3 or 4 feat slots at 25, so you may near max a stat, read a tome or manual gain +1 ability every 4 levels and take multiple great constitution feats to meat epic toughness or what have ya... etc...

[MeatSheild]

So... I dont get the math on the new combat system yet, and my monkish toon can qualify for both imp martial arts and vorpral strike, but there is another feat that I want as well (that and imp martal stacks with itself). That being said could someone brake down vorpral strike vs. improved martial arts for me?

[Scarious]

Everything else she said was dead on but I really wanted to highlight this. With the need of massively inflated AC scores this need to be at least +10 AC to matter or another % increase that stacks with combat expertise.

I want to third this. Maybe it could add to saves, AC, and the new PRR system? something like +2 to saves, +10 AC, and +15-20 PRR? Either a larger static number or percentage bonus to AC, but for does seem really low, not just for a feat with this new system, but for an EPIC feat.

[PopeJual]

I remember seeing Epic Monkey Grip - you can weild a Greatsword (Greatsword only - no greataxes, etc) in your main hand and a one handed weapon in your off hand.

Did I just imagine that? Did that feat go away? Is it hot in here, or am I crazy?

[destiny4405]

I remember seeing Epic Monkey Grip - you can weild a Greatsword (Greatsword only - no greataxes, etc) in your main hand and a one handed weapon in your off hand.

Did I just imagine that? Did that feat go away? Is it hot in here, or am I crazy?

hehe... probably. that feat isn't even epic (as in: can be taken before lvl 20. not that it wouldn't be epic to wield esos in one hand )

[Scarious]

It's just Monkey Grip. you can find it in the Sword and Fist supplement for 3rd ED (i'm sure its other places too). Lets you use "one melee weapon that is one size larger than you in one hand" at the cost of -2 to attack. So you could use a greatsword/axe/club one handed, or any Large sized one handed weapons (think weapons that are sized for a troll) ne hand. I can see people dual wielding ESoSs already


While looking for that, I went over the original "bulwark of defense". from the d20SRD:

Prerequisites: Con 25, defensive stance 3/day.

Your defensive stance bonuses increase to +4 Strength, +6 Constitution, +4 resistance bonus on all saves, and +6 dodge bonus to AC. (*originally defensive stance was just +2 Str, +4 Con, +2 saves, +4 dodge)


Constitution 25 hurts, and remember that the original defensive stance is not as good as our current DDO form, but this takes the stance and improves every aspect of the stance, not just adding a bit of resistance and AC. Now, +8 strength and con might be a bit much, but this form DEFINITELY improved Defensive Stance more than DDO's Bulwark of Defense would improve DDO's defensive stance (especially since AC has been changed, and supplemented with PRR).