Epic feats

[sephiroth1084]

Sephiroth...

I'm not going to disagree, or get into any of your suggestions...the simple fact is we're discussing the only feat right now available for "tweaking" the rest is theory-craft.

No, it doesn't bridge the gap between 10k and STR/DEX based, but the bow feat lines are the only thing right now that does.

And again, DEX 21 is more likely EASIER to reach on a Zen archer, then on an elven ranger (which logically "should" be the best archer in the game), hence no further Zen considerations need to be made.

How would Zen Archers meet the prerequisite easier than an elven Ranger? Because rangers can dump their Dex and still pick up all the archery feats, or...what?

My view is that the feats should be adjusted for what makes sense in and of themselves, and in relation to other options, not in an attempt to balance disparate styles in an arbitrary fashion.

[WurmBurned]

Combat Archery should have the +1[W] and a 5% bonus to hit and should require 21 Dex or 21 Wis and Zen Archery.

Improved Martial Arts should be a +1[W] Unarmed, +.5[W] Ki Weapons, +1 Centered Progression (ie +3 AC)

Overwhelming Critical should drop the Cleave/Great Cleave Requirements

Vorpal Strike should lower the Stat Requirement to 21 and add in 1-2 Feat requirements maybe Weapon Focus and Improved Critical.

Epic Spell Focus should be +2

Epic Toughness should have a stat requirement of 19 and increase HP by 15%.

Aesop

Overwhelming Critical is inline with its listing on the SRD, but I agree that the cleave feats do stand out as the obvious things to remove if the requirements must be reduced.

Changing Epic Toughness to provide 15% more hp or lowering the constitution requirement may be enough to make the feat more attractive on their own.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Feat access shouldn't be the balance between Zen Archers and other archers, especially since Combat Archery comes nowhere near bridging the gap.

Zen Archery needs to allow characters that take it to qualify for other bow feats without needing to meet the Dex requirements.

The devs need to improve archery for everyone so that Zen Archery isn't the only option for people who want to be using a bow 75-100% of the time without being gimps. Ideally, ranged combat would get improved enough that we'd feel comfortable not having to use melee attacks in between Manyshots on any character, with certain other buffs reserved for different characters that do not necessarily work with Zen Archery, so that ZA would be one option of a few.

Archery should be improved on the whole.
Zen Archery should allow Wis to substitute for the Dex prereqs on archery feats.

Rangers should get some exclusive archery bonuses after level 14 (cannot be combined with ZA). Perhaps some AoE archery abilities and debuffs, maybe, via ranger spells and Deepwood Sniper.

Fighters should get some exclusive archery bonuses after level 14. Perhaps by simply having the highest to-hit and base damage of any archer (if to-hit matters), and by being able to use tactics feats at range.

These bonuses should be comparable to 10K Stars, such that the choice between the various options isn't an obvious one. Monk-based archers could have the highest attack rate, while fighters would have the highest chance to land their shots, the highest damage (against non-FEs) and tactics, while rangers would have the easiest access, most flexibility, and some nifty additional abilities. Just spit-balling.

If things got to that point (where Rangers and Fighters also had good things for bows), then I would have no problem with adding 21 WIS as an alternate at that point.

But for now I think it would be too much in the Monk-archer's favour if 21 WIS was allowed. Especially if Improved Martial Arts also worked with bows.

[Aesop]

But that's the point, if it's an easy feat for a 10k, it has done nothing to bridge the gap between 10k and STR/DEX based. DEX 21, doesn't deny Zen archers access any more than it denies elven rangers.

ShadowFlash

So in essence the problem is with 10k stars ... which was meant to be used with thrown weapons but for some reason applies to ranged weapons... seems to me the fix is to address that issue. Zen Archery shouldn't be a major victim of MAD just to take the archery feats. Improved Precise Shot should also have an OR Prerequisite of Zen Archery and 19 Wis

Aesop

[sephiroth1084]

So in essence the problem is with 10k stars ... which was meant to be used with thrown weapons but for some reason applies to ranged weapons... seems to me the fix is to address that issue. Zen Archery shouldn't be a major victim of MAD just to take the archery feats. Improved Precise Shot should also have an OR Prerequisite of Zen Archery and 19 Wis

Aesop

Precisely.

If things got to that point (where Rangers and Fighters also had good things for bows), then I would have no problem with adding 21 WIS as an alternate at that point.

But for now I think it would be too much in the Monk-archer's favour if 21 WIS was allowed. Especially if Improved Martial Arts also worked with bows.

Or, we could enable the feats to work with Zen Archery and hope the devs take notice of the fact that slowly every archer at end game ends up with at least 6 monk levels, and they finally realize that something needs to be done about archery on the whole.

[ShadowFlash]

How would Zen Archers meet the prerequisite easier than an elven Ranger? Because rangers can dump their Dex and still pick up all the archery feats, or...what?

My view is that the feats should be adjusted for what makes sense in and of themselves, and in relation to other options, not in an attempt to balance disparate styles in an arbitrary fashion.

Yes, because of auto-granted feats...but that's only half of it. An elven ranger uses there racial line for +atk for bows...and both the ranger +DEX and racial +DEX mod to reach acceptable to-hit...negating the need for a high base dexterity.

Now this is a build choice, and I have no problem with DEX 21 required, even though it makes it difficult to achieve under these conditions. I don't see why 10k's should have an added benefit or any easier time meeting the requirement, than actual rangers do not get just because they are the current flavor.

I tend to be a realist...the likelyhood of a ginormous change to boosting archery is slim to none IMO...and I highly doubt they'll change this feat, and retroactively change the existing lines, for an archery build (no matter how common these days) that is soley dependant on 1 enhancement.

ShadowFlash

[sephiroth1084]

Yes, because of auto-granted feats...but that's only half of it. An elven ranger uses there racial line for +atk for bows...and both the ranger +DEX and racial +DEX mod to reach acceptable to-hit...negating the need for a high base dexterity.

Now this is a build choice, and I have no problem with DEX 21 required, even though it makes it difficult to achieve under these conditions. I don't see why 10k's should have an added benefit or any easier time meeting the requirement, than actual rangers do not get just because they are the current flavor.

I tend to be a realist...the likelyhood of a ginormous change to boosting archery is slim to none IMO...and I highly doubt they'll change this feat, and retroactively change the existing lines, for an archery build (no matter how common these days) that is soley dependant on 1 enhancement.

ShadowFlash

And that's part of the reason I think the stat should probably be dropped to 20 or 19, though I agree it sucks for rangers who don't actually need the Dex at all.

[Jay203]

=\
if we start allowing zen archery to change the stat requirement from dex to wis
pretty soon we'll probably end up with weapon finesse players wanting weapon finesse to change the stat requirement from str to dex as well

honestly, it's fine the way it is right now
if you want to get the feat, invest a couple level up points into dex =\

PS: it's all about choices, if you wish to invest only into wis for the extra chance to proc extra arrow in 10k, that's your choice
just don't expect to also be able to grab other things that require other stats, or that's just greedy

[Will_Ferrer]

They removed the 13 dex requirement for Point Blank Shot

PBS is easily the core feat for ranged combat, why remove the dex requirement?

It fuels
Many shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Shot on the Run
(and now) Combat Archery

It calls all the shots

So u can take PBS now and even get Precise shot with NO DEX but once u get to IPS you hit this wall of 19 dex required

While I like the idea of allowing Zen Archery + Wisdom to qualify for some of these feats, it does open the door for feats like Brutal Throw to take the place of Zen Archery.

I would like to see Zen Archery applied to IPS, I think it fits. I dont think it fits many shot, rapid shot, shot on the run or combat archery tho. Combat Archery should have the DEX lowered and a STR requirement added or something. A heap of dex and you can do +1[W]? what does that even mean?

[Jay203]

They removed the 13 dex requirement for Point Blank Shot

PBS is easily the core feat for ranged combat, why remove the dex requirement?

It fuels
Many shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Shot on the Run
(and now) Combat Archery

It calls all the shots

So u can take PBS now and even get Precise shot with NO DEX but once u get to IPS you hit this wall of 19 dex required

While I like the idea of allowing Zen Archery + Wisdom to qualify for some of these feats, it does open the door for feats like Brutal Throw to take the place of Zen Archery.

I would like to see Zen Archery applied to IPS, I think it fits. I dont think it fits many shot, rapid shot, shot on the run or combat archery tho. Combat Archery should have the DEX lowered and a STR requirement added or something. A heap of dex and you can do +1[W]? what does that even mean?

negative, combat archery should not be bow-focused, it should be open for bow, xbow, or throwing

but seriously though, getting 21 dex really shouldn't be that hard
with a +3 dex tome, at 16 base with 2 level up points will qualify you for it
zen archery was introduced as a way for people who focuses on wisdom mainly to begin with to hit with ranged, it wasn't meant to replace dex completely for the ranged combat
if you want a feat, work your build around to obtain it, make some sacrifices like you're suppose to
drop 2 of your wis level up points and pump into dex, don't say that 2 points of wis will break your character either, we all know that's an exageration

[krogyy]

i like the design of most of these feats but the list could be expanded somewhat. specifically, an epic feat(s) for generic TWF builds is needed. it feels like in the expansion THF is heavily favored in most ways.

Combat Archery
Requirement:
-Point Blank Shoot
-DEX:21+

+1[base damage] and +2 dodge when using ranged weapons.
Who will want it: All archers and crossbow users.
Who will be able to take this: Archers who level their Dex (not many Kenseis, Rangers, Artificers). Not Zen Archers.
Effectiveness: I liked the +5% to-hit better from the old version of the feat. +2 Dodge is nice, but seems a bit out of place. The stat requirement on this isn't as punitive as on some of the other feats since Dex is the primary stat for most archers (or should be with to-hit supposedly mattering more), though this dramatically cuts down on the effectiveness of Str- and Int-based archers/xbowers.
What needs improving (if anything)?: Zen Archers need to be able to use Wis to meet the stat requirement for this. A bonus on attack rolls was removed, and should be returned. The required stat could stand to be dropped to 20+.

i am glad that they took out the 5% to-hit. it made archers potentially have a 40% (25% proficiency, 5% pbs and two of these) chance to hit regardless of their stats and so much easier to achieve 95% to-hit than a melee.

regarding the requirements, i think the game can not even handle complex logic like: dex 21 OR (wis 21 AND zen archery).
even if it does, it wouldn't make sense from a lore or balance perspective. also, 21 dex is not really a big deal, we will hopefully get free LR so putting two level ups more into dex is a perferctly reasonable solution.

Epic Toughness
requirement:
-CON:21+

+50 hp.
Who will want it: Everyone that doesn't have more relevant epic feats to take, especially tank builds.
Who will be able to take this: Some arcane casters, some Warforged/dwarf characters some barbarians and fighters. Not most characters focused on AC.
Effectiveness: It's a nice bonus.
What needs improving (if anything)?: A lower Con requirement. Few characters can afford to start with over a 16 Con, and of those, most of them don't really need +50 HP.

same here, why is it such a problem to drop a couple level ups in a secondary stat? most builds start with 16 con, with the said level ups and a +3 con tome (which will probably be more common after the update) you can qualify.

Epic Spell Penetration
requirement:
-spell penetration
-greater spell penetration

+4 to spell penetration
Who will want it: Offensive casters.
Who will be able to take this: Those casters who aren't relying on past lives to free up feat slots.
Effectiveness: This is similar to Epic Mental Toughness in that it is giving you the benefit of two feats with those feats as prerequisites. It's useful, but its value is debatable due to the prerequisites.
What needs improving (if anything)?: Could stand to allow past lives to replace prerequisites, remove Greater Spell Penetration as a prerequisite, or grant some additional, minor benefit. Maybe instead of +4, it could be +2 and, "You roll twice to bypass enemy SR, taking the better result."

i think this feat brilliantly help closing the gap between heavily TRed casters and first life ones since the spell penetration feats are the first to go after a few wizard past lifes.

Improved Sneak Attack
requirement:
-12+ Rogue
-DEX:21+

+3d6 sneak damage
Who will want it: All rogues and most melee.
Who will be able to take this: Some rogues.
Effectiveness: It's a strong feat.The requirement of 12 rogue levels means that Half-elves of other classes will have no use for this, and most of the other characters who would want this (such as dark monks who already have a minor sneak attack theme) won't be able to pick this up. The Dex requirement also locks out Str- or Int-based rogues (such as Xbow Mechanics using Int for attack via scrolls), which seems unfair and unnecessary.
What needs improving (if anything)?: Replace the requirements with "Dex 19+ and must have +3d6 sneak attack dice already." That way half-elves, dark monks, and even small rogue splashes can qualify for this. The interaction with half-elf enhancements may be problematic.

same here, and this touches me directly since i have a strength rogue which will lesser into a int one after the update. 21+ requirements for a secondary stat are very reasonable for powerful feats.

i disagree on relaxing the rogue level to 3d6. i feel this feat is meant for rogues, if some other class wants SA there is shadowdancer available.

Vorpal Strikes
requirement:
-12+ monk
-WIS 23+
-improved critical bludgeoning weapons

Your unarmed strikes are now considered vorpal and slashing. (blablablapowerful may resist blabla take 100 damage)
Who will want it: Unarmed monks.
Who will be able to take this: Wis-based unarmed monks.
Effectiveness: The effect is very strong (the slashing is something we probably would have liked somewhere in the heroic levels). Does this change the Improved Critical feat needed to expand your crit range?
What needs improving (if anything)?:The Wis requirement needs to be dropped to 19+, since even characters who were set-up to get Ultimate Ocean Stance before will not be able to acquire this without a Lesser Reincarnation. That sucks. Period.

23 wis is indeed quite a steep price. it essentially requires a monk to be wis-based since you need at least 3-4 level ups. on the other side this feat is VERY powerful (like assassin's tier 3 but it works when aggroed and allows to bypass the situational slash DR) and monks have improved martial arts available too so maybe it is ok.

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all in all i like the fact that for getting the most powerful epic feats you need to occasionally invest in a secondary stat. the necessity of a LR is not a big deal since we were hinted that we will receive free hearts. if one is not willing to move a few stat points around there is also a heap of heroic feats available (most builds are feat starved, aren't they?). that said i feel that the list should be expanded somewhat, for example a feat tailored for TWF (say 10% double strike chance that requires 21 dex plus some feats), a ranger one (2d6 vs favored enemies requires 12 ranger) and a paladin one (dunno, i don't play paladins but they need something).

[Shinjiteru]

I think the 21 stat requirements are ok and needed, especially for epic toughness. Do you thought about what would happen if it would only require 19 con? Most TRed builds start with 16 con and +3 tome will probably be more common with the expansion, that means every TRed character who cares about HP would qualify for that feat and it would be a must have like the heroic toughness feat. Then you only have one epic feat for every class left.
Even casters would be forced to take it, if you don't believe me just watch the forums with all the threads about how easy it is to get to 600hp+ as a caster. No caster really needs that many HP but more and more people, especially the ones who don't have a wizard/sorc character, think a good caster would have that much HP because they don't know how much you have to sacrifice for achieving that (unless you are warforged and even that is a DC penalty for Sorcs).
I like that this is a feat for tank builds mostly and they shouldn't have a problem with hitting 21con.
And yes, my monk would like to have that feat, so dropping that to 19 would be nice for him.


Improved Sneak Attack:
Same here, I like the 21dex requirement. If you are a dex build this helps to close the gap to a strenght build. So even if that is only a viable option for a dex build it brings back some diversity. Most people lough about dex builds and don't want them. This feat at least helps rogue dex builds to get +10.5 damage per hit which is as good as having 20/22 more str and would close the cap between dex and str builds, if you forget that you have one less feat slot for going dex (weapon finess) and are forced to use some inferior weapons.
Or maybe change the requirement to "requires one of: 23 dex, 18 levels of rogue". This way every dex build could use it and every pure rogue. Don't see why any other build should be able to get sneak attack as epic feat. If you really care about sneak attack you wouldn't splash your rogue anyways.
Think very dexterous characters should be able to manage to get at least some additional damage, even if it's called sneak attack and they are not a rogue.

Vorpal Strikes:
wis 23 is just too much. Even as dex build monk it's not easy to get these 23 wis. But since this is a strong feat... not sure if dropping this to 19 or 21 would be better but 23 is just too much.

[DethTrip]

So if you could somehow manage to qualify for 2 of these epic feats (+4 tomes, completionist, etc...), can you take two of them, say epic sneak attack and overwhelming critical?

[Zaha]

Yeah, it was the general believe in Beta when this thing came out that it was a barely veiled "fighter feat only". I'm surprised they didn't just add a "requires Kensai III" to it.

That's a very good point, I thought no one would be using it but you are right it fits ideally kensai III fighter if they are willing to take 2 useless feats.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Perhaps I am missing something, but why are people saying that Overwhelming Critical is THF only? Am I missing something on how Cleave or Great Cleave works now?

[Jay203]

Perhaps I am missing something, but why are people saying that Overwhelming Critical is THF only? Am I missing something on how Cleave or Great Cleave works now?

i think it's because the cleave and great cleave doesn't proc the second hand weapon?

[kingfisher]

Perhaps I am missing something, but why are people saying that Overwhelming Critical is THF only? Am I missing something on how Cleave or Great Cleave works now?

its NOT a thf only feat, or rather it doesnt say that in its description, but it is set up to where only thf builds will be able to afford to take it because of the the overpriced feat prereqs for OC. i commented that it should say THF because both cleave and great cleave are required to take it. how many twf or unarmed builds will be able to burn 2 feats slots on useless feats for their playstyle in order to take OC?

[AylinIsAwesome]

its NOT a thf only feat, or rather it doesnt say that in its description, but it is set up to where only thf builds will be able to afford to take it because of the the overpriced feat prereqs for OC. i commented that it should say THF because both cleave and great cleave are required to take it. how many twf or unarmed builds will be able to burn 2 feats slots on useless feats for their playstyle in order to take OC?

A Kensei could probably get away with it. Though I don't see how any other class is going to be able to take it without a pretty hefty Fighter/Monk splash.

11 Bonus Feats + 7 Heroic Feats + 2 Epic Feats = 20

1. TWF
2. ITWF
3. GTWF
4. Toughness
5. Khopesh Proficiency
6. Improved Critical
7. Power Attack
8. Cleave
9. Great Cleave
10. Weapon Focus: Slashing
11. Weapon Specialization: Slashing
12. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
13. Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
14. Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing
15. OTWF or 2nd Toughness (or Skill Focus: UMD or something)
16. Overwhelming Critical
17. Quickdraw
18. Stunning Blow
19. Improved Sunder
20. Great Strength

[kingfisher]

A Kensei could probably get away with it. Though I don't see how any other class is going to be able to take it without a pretty hefty Fighter/Monk splash.

11 Bonus Feats + 7 Heroic Feats + 2 Epic Feats = 20

1. TWF
2. ITWF
3. GTWF
4. Toughness
5. Khopesh Proficiency
6. Improved Critical
7. Power Attack
8. Cleave
9. Great Cleave
10. Weapon Focus: Slashing
11. Weapon Specialization: Slashing
12. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
13. Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
14. Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing
15. OTWF or 2nd Toughness (or Skill Focus: UMD or something)
16. Overwhelming Critical
17. Quickdraw
18. Stunning Blow
19. Improved Sunder
20. Great Strength

my point exactly, all twf builds get hosed by these prereqs. even a twf kensai loses out to his thf kensai brethren because the thf will be getting some use out of those 2 feats.

[AylinIsAwesome]

my point exactly, all twf builds get hosed by these prereqs. even a twf kensai loses out to his thf kensai brethren because the thf will be getting some use out of those 2 feats.

I'm not so sure.

I know the THF will get more use out of Cleave and Great Cleave (from what I understand they could still be useful in a highly situational manor for a TWF [surrounded by enemies where hitting them all would be more DPS than swinging normally]), but I think that for Overwhelming Critical itself it would be more beneficial to a Khopesh than any other weapon.

17-18 3x, 19-20 4x just seems so good.


In terms of critical power (range * [1 - critical multiplier]), OS increases the critical power by 2. Khopesh is still on top at a 10.