Feedback: Magister

[oberon131313]

A whopping 9 AP's into the tree you can hit a 15% cooldown reduction. This saves 12 (of 80) seconds on Symbol of Death, 4.5 (of 30) seconds on Circle of Death, and 9 (of 60) seconds on Wail of the Banshee. Frankly, this is not that great. And I certainly don't want to have to dump 9 AP's for it. I can wait a few extra seconds, and I certainly don't need to spam Symbol of Death. On Wail, it's alright, but hardly worth the AP's (which will cut you out of better stuff). Going this route would cut you out of maxing INT (I assume you'll be taking Arcane Adept) and you'd have 1 AP left over. So not worth it. You'd have 2x Unearthly Reactions, 5 tiers of INT, Arcane Adept, and your tree maxed up to to 3 ranks in Spell School Familiarity with 1 remaining AP to spend. Nobody is going to do this.

Not sure how the small chance at save reduction plays on a PM. On an AM, it's basically worthless. I suppose we're supposed to take the Chill Touch SLA and spam it over and over hoping for the save reduction? It's on a 6 second cooldown, so no good there.

almost every ED has "****" that they have to take to qualify for the stuff you really want; your PM isn't special there.

[Faent]

almost every ED has "****" that they have to take to qualify for the stuff you really want; your PM isn't special there.

First, I don't play a PM. But for some reason everybody who posts these forums sees "Necro" and assumes Pale Master.

Second, I think you missed the point. The stuff you need to qualify for Master of School is way too AP intensive, and it's pretty darn worthless for anyone who takes their Specialist in Necromancy. To max out Master of School (which it itself not much more than a Spell Pen boost for a Necro Specialist), you have to burn 12 AP's. That's A LOT, in case you missed the memo. It's a fracking four tier tree and you are required to burn 3 ranks in each rank of the tree to max out the fourth tier, which, for a Necro Specialist, again, is a whopping +3 to Spell Pen. Most of that Master of Necro benefit a available for 3 AP's elsewhere in the Magister Destiny.

[sephiroth1084]

Not saying I wouldn't support them breaking up that chain so that it's 2->3 4->5 instead of 2->3->4->5, but to say that all of the tiers are a waste is disingenuous.

Necromancy in particular benefits from the cooldown reduction (wail, circle of death, symbol of death).

The -10 to saves is huge for mopping up.

Honestly, 6 seconds off of Wail isn't going to change the game for me. If it were 15 seconds, then I might be seriously interested. If Finger had its cooldown dropped by 2 seconds, I would be interested. But that isn't happening, so 3 AP spent there is a waste.

While I do use Necrotic Bolt and Blast with some frequency, I'm not generally in the habit of firing it off prior to trying to instakill something, and from what I've seen, the proc rate isn't high enough to be worth getting in the habit of doing that. One rank of to impose a -5 penalty sometimes on bosses that I'm really spamming...okay, I'll buy that, but I don't really want to be spending 2 more AP for the same ability I hardly want in the first place.

almost every ED has "****" that they have to take to qualify for the stuff you really want; your PM isn't special there.

Most destiny abilities go:
Enhancement A, spend 1 point -->unlock enhancement B

Very few have:
Enhancement A, spend 1 point --> unlock enhancement B1
Enhancement A, spend 2 points --< unlock enhancement B2
Enhancemnent A, spend 3 points --> unlock enhancement B3

And I don't think any have this set-up for A-->B-->C-->D. If Magister had one line like that I'd be irritated, but the fact that half the tree works like this means that I really can't take the enhancement I want because I have to spend a bunch of AP in junk I don't.

[oberon131313]

And I don't think any have this set-up for A-->B-->C-->D. If Magister had one line like that I'd be irritated, but the fact that half the tree works like this means that I really can't take the enhancement I want because I have to spend a bunch of AP in junk I don't.

Draconic Incarnation = Energy Sheath -> Go Out With A Bang -> Energy Burst -> Energy Vortex
Shadowdancer = Shrouding Strike -> Cloak of Shadows -> Shadow Manipulation -> Consume
Shadowdancer = Shrouding Strike -> Improved Invisibility -> Untouchable -> Shadow Form -> Oncoming Darkness
Grandmaster of Flowers = Lily Petal -> Orchid Blossom -> Drifting Lotus -> A Scattering of Petals

Draconic Incarnation also has the same 3/3/3/1 requirements... The others only have 1 tier each. Every other ability that has more than 1 tier and has a prereq that has more than 1 tier requires the same as Magister... (1 point in for 1 point out)

First, I don't play a PM. But for some reason everybody who posts these forums sees "Necro" and assumes Pale Master.

Second, I think you missed the point. The stuff you need to qualify for Master of School is way too AP intensive, and it's pretty darn worthless for anyone who takes their Specialist in Necromancy. To max out Master of School (which it itself not much more than a Spell Pen boost for a Necro Specialist), you have to burn 12 AP's. That's A LOT, in case you missed the memo. It's a fracking four tier tree and you are required to burn 3 ranks in each rank of the tree to max out the fourth tier, which, for a Necro Specialist, again, is a whopping +3 to Spell Pen. Most of that Master of Necro benefit a available for 3 AP's elsewhere in the Magister Destiny.

if it's not worth more than 3 spell pen, then don't take it. It's not intended that every ability is required for every build; that's why you have options.

Like I said earlier, I agree that having such large bound trees isn't great, and that splitting them would be preferable; just don't use incorrect information, and don't downplay the fact that those abilities do have their niche...

[Faent]

Grandmaster of Flowers = Lily Petal -> Orchid Blossom -> Drifting Lotus -> A Scattering of Petals

That's a 5 AP pathway. Come on. The Magister pathway is 12 AP's.

Draconic Incarnation = Energy Sheath -> Go Out With A Bang -> Energy Burst -> Energy Vortex

That's an 11 AP pathway.

Shadowdancer = Shrouding Strike -> Cloak of Shadows -> Shadow Manipulation -> Consume

That's a 9 AP pathway. The Magister pathway is 12 AP's.

Shadowdancer = Shrouding Strike -> Improved Invisibility -> Untouchable -> Shadow Form -> Oncoming Darkness

That's 11 AP's total to pick up Oncoming Darkness, which is awesome. Magister is 12 AP's to pick up all of Master of School. All of the stuff along this Shadow Dancer route rocks. 6 AP's of the 12 AP's on the Magister route rock for a wizzie. The rest are lamesauce. This could be offset if there was more from Magister that made sense for an arcane. But there isn't much there for an an arcane, and what there is has insane AP costs which come at the cost of taking lots of junk that cuts you out of what you are going to want (like all INT Enhancements, for example).

[Faent]

it's not worth more than 3 spell pen, then don't take it.

It's not even worth the 3 Spell Pen. 12 AP's to get 3 Spell Pen, especially when 6 AP out of that 12 is junk, is absurd.

[Kabaon]

I find the cooldown beneficial on my PM for all three spells. It isn't SPECTACULAR, but it's a nice feature.

Also having lower saves from fort necro spells and sla attacks are great. It could actually mean the difference between a bolt doing 60-120 dmg to a bolt doing 120 to 180 dmg instead (example, not real numbers). My only issue with it is that when using Negative Emergy Burst to heal in a pinch, it lowers your own saves as well. I assume that's just a bug.

And obviously having +3 to dc's is sweet.

My current setup is 2 points in Unearthly Reactions (2 reflex saves won't kill me when you have a 30+ without buffs XD), 2 points in the spell power sigil, 6 in int, 12 in the necro tree and 2 in the -10 spell point cost. It works fairly well, as I still have a 49 int fully buffed (51 if I got a +4 tome :P, 52 if I had an insightful 3 item :P)

[Faent]

Also having lower saves from fort necro spells and sla attacks are great. It could actually mean the difference between a bolt doing 60-120 dmg to a bolt doing 120 to 180 dmg instead (example, not real numbers).

It's certainly a better pathway for a Pale Master than it is for an Archmage, yes. It's a beyond crappy pathway for an Archmage. Unfortunately, for a wizard, there really aren't any more options in the Destiny. Sigils? Please. Nullmagic Aura? Meh. Certainly not going to was the AP's picking that up. The Summons? A total joke and total fail. The Variable Resistance looks interesting, but the AP's to take it just aren't there.

A wizard is going to pick this destiny for INT boosts and Spell Pen boosts, along with Arcane Adept and Spell School Specialist. The Spell Pen boots in the destiny require a fracking Feat or else require BEYOND INSANE AP investment. And Archmages definitely get the short end of the stick when it comes to this destiny. Pale Masters have it slightly better, but it's still pretty darn meh.

[Kabaon]

Who cares about Spell Pen anymore? Aside from a few mobs here and there the +43 spell pen I have makes content easier. Frankly getting a small boost is nice, but not required.

Also you get more of a boost to dc's from taking the the tree over the rediculous amount of ap for each int point. - to fort saves help a lot, I succeed a lot more now with sla's and necrotic ray than I did before.

Also while the sigils aren't exactly the best, they are ok. Sigil of Battered Spellcraft is great for bosses since unless your in a tight raid or boss fight where you have to move a lot, the 15/30/45 spellpower that you get from it really does help. The others, take it or leave it. But don't rule this one out for a nice boost (considering the nerf to the Eardweller).

[Faent]

Who cares about Spell Pen anymore? Aside from a few mobs here and there the +43 spell pen I have makes content easier.

Obviously you don't care about Spell Pen. I mean, if you have a 43 Spell Pen, you must not care about it, right? Are you trying to make yourself look ridiculous?

Also you get more of a boost to dc's from taking the the tree over the rediculous amount of ap for each int point. - to fort saves help a lot, I succeed a lot more now with sla's and necrotic ray than I did before.

PM only benefit, of course.

[LeLoric]

PM only benefit, of course.

Nope it is good for any prep/debuff necro spell. Energy drain now drops saves by further than before. Fear becomes a better version of crushing despair. Curse/scare/symbol of death. Plus it makes a big difference on that one mob that saved out of an aoe instakill.

[Tid12]

That's an 11 AP pathway, all of which looks like something no caster would ever want. You're close here, except that all of that is junk, including the Energy Vortex. This pathway resembles the left half of the Magister Destiny, i.e., basically worthless garbage for any caster. And pretty much worthless for everyone else.

You have never leveled DI, do you?

Energy Sheath and Energy Burst are awesome.

The first is 50% acid/Elec absorption that you can get in NO OTHER WAY and offers a little bit of dps of melees who strikes you;

Energy Burst one is awesome DPS and you can be sure that if its pre-reqs wasn't "Go out with a Bang" T3, everyone would get it to T3.

I asked in many others threads to get rid of this crappy "Get T3 pre-req" on every ED but seems like it won't happen.

[Faent]

Nope

The SLA/Necrotic Ray benefit is PM only. Obviously. And it doesn't make a big difference on the one mob that saved. It has a 15% chance of making a difference (if you wasted all those AP's) on the mob that saved. And how important is that anyway? Both Wail and Circle are already dropping saves.

Energy drain now drops saves by further than before.

You mean that Energy Drain has a slim chance of dropping saves further than before. Let's remember that a PM gets more of a benefit from this than an AM, since they can freely cast Necro spells. Keep that in mind, please, when you try to respond. ED does not drop saves further than before. It has a 15% chance of dropping save further than before. Maybe you like to play the lotto?

[Faent]

Energy Sheath and Energy Burst are awesome.

Sheath is bottom tier. Easily available.

Energy Burst one is awesome DPS...

Ok, maybe. So maxing that would take 9 AP. That's 3 AP less than maxing Magister's Spell School Mastery.

There is no question that the harshest AP requirements have been foisted on the Magister ED, which is already, let's admit, pretty darn boring and lackluster. Oooh, cool sigils! ::squeals in delight::

[Tid12]

Sheath is bottom tier. Easily available.

You are the one saying it is worthless.

I was just stating that your statement that the "left half of DI is worthless gargabe" is false.

Ok, maybe. So maxing that would take 9 AP. That's 3 AP less than maxing Magister's Spell School Mastery.

There is no question that the harshest AP requirements have been foisted on the Magister ED, which is already, let's admit, pretty darn boring and lackluster. Oooh, cool sigils! ::squeals in delight::

Not maybe, it is. 3k crits at T1 every 20 secs for 20 SP is awesome.

Also, don't forget Energy vortex, so 4 abilities vs 4 abilities. So it's 11 ap VS 12. Not much of a difference.


In the end, we can agree on one point, as I stated above: they should get rid of these "get T3 pre-reqs".




However, bottom line: I capped the Magister also and I liked the sigils. Maxed the 60 resistance one and the 45 Spell power one and I found both really usefull. But this is just my opinion.

EG: If I'm running elite Tor, I'll swap to Magister for the resistances.

[Faent]

You are the one saying it is worthless.

I meant that taking that entire left line was stupid. Magister's massive tree is similarly worthless. Taking all of it it is just stupid. For anyone. Obviously, the bottom tier of the tree is worthwhile. Try to follow the dicussion a little more closely next time, eh?

I was just stating that your statement that the "left half of DI is worthless gargabe" is false.

If you'd been paying attention, and if you knew what these destinies looked like, I'd have expected you to read that as the WHOLE left side. I'll forgive you the reading comprehension failure however, since perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear.

Also, don't forget Energy vortex, so 4 abilities vs 4 abilities. So it's 11 ap VS 12. Not much of a difference.

Oh, there's a difference. As you've conceded, it's already 1 AP worth of a difference. But more importantly, more of the AP's in that line are (as you've argued) worthwhile. For a Necro Specialist, not as many AP's in the Magister line are worthwhile. So yes, it's more of a difference. It's Le Suck for a Necro wizzie who is stuck with the most AP intensive destiny and gets near jack **** out of the Le Suck he's forced to take.

[Tid12]

I meant that taking that entire left line was stupid. Magister's massive tree is similarly worthless. Taking all of it it is just stupid. For anyone. Obviously, the bottom tier of the tree is worthwhile. Try to follow the dicussion a little more closely next time, eh?

You meant =/= what you said. You said it's a

worthless garbage for any caster

not my fault.

If you'd been paying attention, and if you knew what these destinies looked like, I'd have expected you to read that as the WHOLE left side. I'll forgive you the reading comprehension failure however, since perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear.

I know what these destinies look like. It's you that probably haven't capped them since you are again stating false things about DI.

Again, let me be clear, this is false. The WHOLE left side of DI is fine as it is. It's not garbage, it's fine so is the Magister left side. Sure, without the "Get T3 pre-reqs" it would be better, but everything else on every ED would be.

Oh, it's more of a difference. As you've conceded, it's already 1 AP worth of a difference. But more importantly, more of the AP's in that line are (as you've argued) worthwhile. For a Necro Specialist, not as many AP's in the Magister line are worthwhile. So yes, it's more of a difference. It's Le Suck for a Necro wizzie who is stuck with the most AP intensive destiny and gets near jack **** out of the Le Suck he's forced to take.

It's not the most intensive one at all. You should look up at maybe the Shadowdancer or Fury of the wild.

It's your experience and our opinion that not as many AP's in the Magister line are worthwhile and I respect it but that doesn't mean it's true.

I wish I could max:

- Sigil of energy negation
- Sigil of Battering Spellcraft
- Nullmagice guard
- Nullmagic strike
- Nullmagic aura
- Arcane adept
- Master of the school line.

Plenty of things IMHO. And so are many others ED. You just have to make your decisions.

Let's take an example of DI. It is intensive too. Let's say I want Energy Burst T3 (because, as you know, sorcs are burst DPS so we want to max it in anyway as you want to max the Master of the school line): already 11 points. Then we have to take:

- Precise evocation T2
- Dragon Heritage T3
- Dragon spell knowledge T3
- Dragon breath
- Flyby attack
- Fearsome invulnerability


In fact, there are more Magister abilities I want to max rather than DI's one. So yeah, Magister is fine as it is, there are plenty of worthwhile abilities, you just have to make your choices, like everyone else do.

If you don't like it then, you can always switch and bring the +3 DC and +3 Spell pen as twists into something else.

[Faent]

You meant =/= what you said. You said it's a not my fault.

I said *the pathway* was worthless garbage for any caster. By that, you should have understood that I was claiming taking the whole pathway was worthless for any caster. No caster is going to take the whole left pathway of the DI destiny. That would be stupid. Don't quote me out of context like you just tried to do.

It's not the most intensive one at all. You should look up at maybe the Shadowdancer or Fury of the wild.

Can you post an example of a more AP intensive pathway? Shadowdancer doesn't have it. Nor does Fury. You're making this up. The Magister ED has the most AP intensive pathway of any ED. And it's filled with stuff that's absolute garbage for most wizzies who would want to take the destiny. That's a nasty joke. The garbage stinks ever-so slightly less for a Pale Master. It smells like rotten eggs for an Archmage.

[Tid12]

I said *the pathway* was worthless garbage for any caster. By that, you should have understood that I was claiming taking the whole pathway was worthless for any caster. No caster is going to take the whole left pathway of the DI destiny. That would be stupid. Don't quote me out of context like you just tried to do.

And yet, there are people who take it to get Energy Burst T3. Again, it's not garbage. Just Go out with a Bang is totally useless for DI. You haven't such a useless ability in your pathway.

Can you post an example of a more AP intensive pathway? Shadowdancer doesn't have it. Nor does Fury. You're making this up. The Magister ED has the most AP intensive pathway of any ED. And it's filled with stuff that's absolute garbage for most wizzies who would want to take the destiny. That's a nasty joke. The garbage stinks ever-so slightly less for a Pale Master. It smells like rotten eggs for an Archmage.

Not talking about pathway in that case, I'm talking as a whole ED.

The Magister pathway isn't garbage. +3 DC is mandatory, 15% chance to reduces saves not that bad, 15% Cooldown reduction is cool for wizzies with your long CD, +3 MCL/CL is cool. Don't see any problem.

And I don't see the problem cause I have actually tested it. The 15% chance to reduces the saves is very handy and not garbage like Go out with a bang.

Don't try to make it look worse than it is. This ED is fine.

And, just to state again cause MAYBE you missed it, if they get rid of the "Get the T3 pre-reqs" I would be very happy too.

[LeLoric]

The SLA/Necrotic Ray benefit is PM only. Obviously. And it doesn't make a big difference on the one mob that saved. It has a 15% chance of making a difference (if you wasted all those AP's) on the mob that saved. And how important is that anyway? Both Wail and Circle are already dropping saves.



You mean that Energy Drain has a slim chance of dropping saves further than before. Let's remember that a PM gets more of a benefit from this than an AM, since they can freely cast Necro spells. Keep that in mind, please, when you try to respond. ED does not drop saves further than before. It has a 15% chance of dropping save further than before. Maybe you like to play the lotto?

It's still a benefit. Is it the best omg ability now I am a god? No but you said it was a pm benefit only I gave multiple instances where it works on all necro spells regardless of your prestige. Please keep that in mind before you respond.

And I seem to remember necro AM's get to freely cast around some necro spells too if they so choose. The only place it's a big benefit to pm's is as a raid boss debuffer. This debuff is much more for melees to help land sunders and monks to land their -25% fort etc than it does anything for the wizard (they do get a bit of improved sla dmg usually but often minimal in dmg difference.)

Yes it's a 15% chance but it's a secondary effect so it's not an all or nothing instance. It's a bonus when it happens but it in no way is required to go off for your initial spell to be worthwhile.