Feedback: Magister

[Auran82]

Genasi,

It's not a huge deal and I don't think this ED needs a whole lot really but all the other innates work quite a bit differently and distinguish themselves quite a bit amongst each tier instead of being the same.

Following their same formatting I would like to see something like the following.

Tier 1 each level of magister gets 40sp and 1 caster level for arcane spells.

Tier 2 Maybe some kind of sla effect.

Tier 3 Some static non clickie effect (we dont need too many clickies)

Tier 4 no cost for metamagics for 15 sec every 3 minutes

Tier 5 Some static non clickie effect

Tier 6 I like as is

Draconic could also use a similar formatting to match up with all the others.

Regarding the tier 1 suggestion, can we have this and all caster related EDs just give +1 caster level to all casting classes you might have? Or remove that part and tie it in with epic levels?

[Artagon]

I
Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

I think that you are on the right track by giving us a nice general use sigil.. I do fear that its not powerful enough an ability which has a static position. Devs have been doing a great job of making sure fights are not standing still beat-fests so its important to make sure that the sigil is worth people gathering for... its hard enough already getting people to fight in the aoe damagers.

[Luthe111]

as i didnt use a caster in the beta, im unsure how relevant this question is, but nullmagic AURA implies the caster has to be standing in the melee mob to help them, something that u really never see, so maybe something like an AOV crown for aura?

[Shade]

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

I like it.
One of the issues I find Arcanes suffer in long raid fights such as Lord of Blades (through the primary beat down phase) is they dont have much to do if they arent in a key role. Pretty much its
- Cloudkill and haste/rage the mlees.. Fairly basic tasks that require litle attention.
So adding more things they can cast to aid the battle would make them more fun to play in such raids/roles.

Though for me when I tried this ED, the major issue with ALL the sigils were:
- Very slow cast time (pretty common issue with all arcane destiny things it seems, not to bad with quicken at least tho)
- Poor duration for what it is. It's a longterm stationary defensive buff. Other such aoe type effect generally last 80+ seconds (cloudkill for example).
-AOE size is just standard haste size.. Was expecting larger, the graphic displays slightly larger, but the actual gameplay impacting area matches hastes AOE. Would be nice if that could be upd +50% or so.

If you could up these to use a duration based on caster level (6s per CL would be approrapiate) that would be awesome and would make some of them well worth using in certain difficult battles. They would still be very situational, but at least be worthy of there rather long cast times, and moderate sp costs.

Else if scalable duration isnt possible, a fixed 90 seconds would be more appropriate, to match what cloudkill would have at cl25 for duration.

I'll give a more complete report on Magister in the coming days. Overall it seemed fine in terms of power vs draconic, but I have some ideas and bug reports coming for ya.

[Shade]

as i didnt use a caster in the beta, im unsure how relevant this question is, but nullmagic AURA implies the caster has to be standing in the melee mob to help them, something that u really never see, so maybe something like an AOV crown for aura?

No i tested it.

Other then what appeared to be a SMALLER aoe then other sigils, it functioned much like them. Stand in it, and get its effects.

It's effects: Complete spell immunity for 20 seconds.

That sound like a powerful thing right?
Im my testing, not really. I found it woefully underpowered. It took me 10+ mana pots just to charge the thing ( and you have to chug pots, shrining removes the charges), made it unnecesarily poor.

Suggest:
-Duration up to 40s.
-AOE size standardized (if it isnt already, I was only going based on the graphics, and given it took me an hour to test it once, I wanst about to jump around it in to test its AOE size and potentially miss if it actaully worked in stopping spell effects).
Charges needed droped to 5. They are so very rare to get that 5 is still a lot.
-Cooldown fixed at 4 minutes.

[LiquidShadow]

Genasi,

It's not a huge deal and I don't think this ED needs a whole lot really but all the other innates work quite a bit differently and distinguish themselves quite a bit amongst each tier instead of being the same.

Following their same formatting I would like to see something like the following.

Tier 1 each level of magister gets 40sp and 1 caster level for arcane spells.

Tier 2 Maybe some kind of sla effect.

Tier 3 Some static non clickie effect (we dont need too many clickies)

Tier 4 no cost for metamagics for 15 sec every 3 minutes

Tier 5 Some static non clickie effect

Tier 6 I like as is

Draconic could also use a similar formatting to match up with all the others.

personaly i would like to se some kind of ability that lets u choose 1 spell as your SLA - u know the perks, no metamagic costs and cheaper than regular spell but a bit increased cooldown. this could free up some spell slots especialy in lvl 4 and lvl 6 spells area
higher lvl spells could have greater cooldown increase compared to its base value
like lvl 1 spell no difference in cooldown
lvl2 gets 20% cooldown increase
lvl3 40%
with max lvl 6 100% cooldown increase

[Artagon]

So if the sigils are slow casting as Shade suggests, this is a greater argument for making them more powerful. On the other hand, if you can shorten the cast time/cooldown then that argument is diminished, please take cast time and the immovable field aspects of these sigils into account as you fine-tune power levels. Additionally, it does seem like building the null-magic charges is rather unpredictable and slow, as such, it might be a good idea to add some sort of stacking power as you lead up to the aura.. perhaps +1 psionic strength (or maybe a % bonus to dmg) and +2 spell power per charge? Is the aura supposed to be a sigil, as Shade suggested it works? I was under the impression that it was an aura you carried with you, or you used it and it applied to everyone in a burst..

[Shade]

So if the sigils are slow casting as Shade suggests, this is a greater argument for making them more powerful. On the other hand, if you can shorten the cast time/cooldown then that argument is diminished, please take cast time and the immovable field aspects of these sigils into account as you fine-tune power levels. Additionally, it does seem like building the null-magic charges is rather unpredictable and slow, as such, it might be a good idea to add some sort of stacking power as you lead up to the aura.. perhaps +1 psionic strength (or maybe a % bonus to dmg) and +2 spell power per charge? Is the aura supposed to be a sigil, as Shade suggested it works? I was under the impression that it was an aura you carried with you, or you used it and it applied to everyone in a burst..

lol.

So im just making everything up for fun your saying?

Im not suggesting anything or making wild guesses. I tested it pretty carefully.

If they gave it stacking spell power, that would discourage you from every unloading the charges to use the epic moment.. Counter-intuitive.

[sephiroth1084]

I agree wholeheartedly that some spell schools in DDO are much more lacking than others, but I don't think this destiny should be expected to make up for those limitations the same way adding more spells to the spell lists would. Not only that, but trying to solve game-wide problems with epic-specific advancement is something we want to avoid.

While I agree, I also feel that there could be a little more benefit for some schools than others here. After all, Evocation casters are probably better off in Draconic than they are in Magister, and dispelling is the wheelhouse for Abjurists. They should get some new stuff in the heroic tier to be worth specializing in, but perhaps some specialization could give them an extra boost in the destiny? Maybe have Spell Focus: Abjuration (and Greater) increase the chance of Nullmagic proccing?

This was actually something I considered at one point, and I don't think it's too late to try it. I'll see if I can rework Nullmagic Strike to proc on melee as well as ranged physical attacks in addition to spells.

Sounds good.

That's a thought. I'll look into whether it's feasible to make Call Kindred Being summon something generic if you don't have a spell focus feat. It's a fair point that a great many toys in this tree aren't accessible to anyone but casters.

From what I've seen, all of these need a boost in power. Epic destiny abilities shouldn't be summoning monsters that are as weak and ineffectual as the junk we summon with standard spells 1-9.

Here's something I just considered, because all in all I don't think the Spellwarding sigil (spell resistance) is offering a whole lot compared to some of the others. Perhaps it could become, instead, simply the Sigil of Warding: +1 AC and +5 Physical Resistance per rank, for 3 AC and 15 PR at the third rank. This could give a Magister something more meaningful to throw down for melee characters to fight in during a longer battle, and even a melee character might consider twisting it for the defensive benefits, which would further help in making this tree desirable to non-caster classes. Thoughts?

Sounds good, but kind of out of flavor. This doesn't seem like the sort of thing a master of arcane magic would be doing.

Maybe an ablative protection, similar to the level 1 artificer spell, but absorbing both more damage per hit and more damage total? Say, a super-Stoneskin?

And remember also that there's the secondary Nullmagic benefit of stripping the magic protections off of an enemy when it hits, which makes all of your spells a potential Dispel. The situations in which an enemy is buffed by an ally or itself are uncommon, true, but they do happen.

First, while enemies do have some buffs, most of these are non-dispellable.
Second, will this Dispel our own debuffs and DoTs on the monsters? This was a problem with the Divine Vengeance's Dispel-on-vorpal effect: you would be buffing the monsters by removing things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Eladar's Electric Surge. That needs to not happen (only dispel enemy buffs, not our debuffs and damage), or the Nullmagic stuff is completely worthless.

[LiquidShadow]

lol.

So im just making everything up for fun your saying?

Im not suggesting anything or making wild guesses. I tested it pretty carefully.

If they gave it stacking spell power, that would discourage you from every unloading the charges to use the epic moment.. Counter-intuitive.

thats how Eladrin made the "awesome" exalted angel epic destiny atm... so maybe u should visit that forum section too... for some strange reason devs seem to listen to you. while u are there u might want to brainwash Eladrin so the new exalted angel would become more melee friendly

[Gimpinator]

Sure, you can twist the DC boost or whichever Sigil appeals to you most, but there's also all of the following: a 15% reduction in cooldown for spells of your school (which equates to an increase in DPS if you happen to be a conjuration/evocation-focused nuker)

Well 15% faster casting time of Evocation spells means more SP used than taking +3 DC and being equally effective.

[Artagon]

lol.

So im just making everything up for fun your saying?

Im not suggesting anything or making wild guesses. I tested it pretty carefully.

If they gave it stacking spell power, that would discourage you from every unloading the charges to use the epic moment.. Counter-intuitive.

Not really, perhaps I should have rather said, if I'm understanding correctly. My apologies if you thought I was casting aspersions on your findings.

Yes, I agree that stacking power leading to the big power would be counter-intuitive, if the null-magic aura stays as it is, but as you said, it's not as good as it sounds, being small area and, if I'm understanding correctly ;P, with it being a sigil rather than aura, I'd want it to also have a slightly bigger bang in the sigil area.. if it takes 10 charges and each charge provides +2 spell power, you're looking at +20 spell power and +10 strength or maybe 20% melee/ranged dmg.. so if that sigil did +50 spell power and +50% melee dmg.. it would indeed be a big bang aura worth having. I'd probably rename it to something like "Magical Superiority" or something like that.

[oberon131313]

I too found it slightly odd that the null magic stacks didn't provide any kind of bonus, but I don't think the spell power fits thematically. I think a better idea is a chance (per stack) to ignore an incoming spell as though it was absorbed by a spell absorption. Maybe 1% per 2 stacks? Shade is correct, they do take forever to build (though I was able to proc it more than he was I think, but that was on a melee arti) and the stacks only apply when you have the null magic aura ability, so it would not be twistable.

After 30 minutes of a quest without a shrine, I was able to get roughly 24 stacks up; 30 minutes for 12% chance at spell absorption seems reasonable and fits themeatically with null magic aura, I think.

[Shade]

thats how Eladrin made the "awesome" exalted angel epic destiny atm... so maybe u should visit that forum section too... for some strange reason devs seem to listen to you. while u are there u might want to brainwash Eladrin so the new exalted angel would become more melee friendly

I think for the epic destinies they are listening and taking everyones feedback as long as its clear, concise and makes sense, as they want to make them as work as best as they can before release. I'm not special in that regard other then maybe im giving lots of feedback and testing some of them heavily.

In general, I dont think so.. If they did, they wouldn't be nerfing supreme cleave =/

But yea i do plan on checking out every destiny. I'll check out exalted angel evnetually. I dont see how it needs to be more "melee" tho, there are already 4 good melee EDs, 3 of which favored souls/clerics can benefit from (4 if they are monk splash).

[soulaeon]

I'd like to see some kind of conjunction between past life feats and destinies.
For example, stacking the maximum number of arcane past lives or all of one arcane class' past lives could add an additional caster level to the "autogrants". Or simply having all three past lives could grant an additional Fate point, or something like that.

[Scraap]

Not really terribly attached to it, but just to throw it out there, notion for illusion and abjuration: Single target spells turned mass at half caster level for 3x the cost.

Saves prep-time, gives a limited version of displace back if you want to extend it to the self-only spells, and even serves as a wierd equivalent (albiet not as strong as the actual spell).

[Artagon]

I think you're right about that, yeah. Shadowdancer's innates got a lot more interesting when most of the tiers got something unique to distinguish them. We will see if there's time for Magister/Draconic.

How about something like this?

autogrants
Arcane study I (required 0): (Passive) +40 SP +1 caster level to all arcane spell / lvl
Arcane study II (required 4): (Active Cooldown: 3 min) You may cast Symbol of Stunning 3/rest. Also, when wielding a spell implement, you gain double the implement bonus.
Arcane study III (required 8): (Active Cooldown: 2 seconds) Toggle: When wielding an implement, add the implement bonus to your weapon as force damage, but it no longer applies the spell power bonus. (not doubled from the tier II ability either)
Arcane study IV (required 12): (Active Cooldown: 2 min) the next spell you cast for the next 15 seconds costs 0 mana.
Arcane study V (required 16): (Passive) You now have slippery mind, in addition, whenever you gain a null magic charge, you do a burst of 1d6/character level of force damage to all enemies around you.
Arcane spellsurge(required 20): (Active Cooldown: 4 mins) +5 to all spell DCs for 20 seconds

Basically, I was trying to add a bit more oomph to the destiny, and also provide a way for the martial class in the destiny to have a little more fun as well. I might want the symbol of stunning to have a static DC (45?) to prevent melees from completely losing out on that level and to make it fairly good for casters that aren't specialized in that direction.

[sephiroth1084]

Not really terribly attached to it, but just to throw it out there, notion for illusion and abjuration: Single target spells turned mass at half caster level for 3x the cost.

Saves prep-time, gives a limited version of displace back if you want to extend it to the self-only spells, and even serves as a wierd equivalent (albiet not as strong as the actual spell).

I like the idea of giving each of the schools an SLA or carrier effect that takes a spin on their focus...
Abjuration - All of your Abjuration spells that are single target, target an area instead. Characters who focused on this school would gain Mass:
Nightshield
Shield
Protection from Evil (replaces a level 3 spell with a level 1 spell)
Resist Energy
(Greater) Dispel Magic
Protection From Energy
Remove Curse
Stoneskin
Protection From Elements (replaces a level 7 spell with a level 5 spell)
Dismissal


The same would be cool for Illusionists, though they have very few spells at all, let alone ones that this would be useful for (Invis, Blur, Displace, PK). I'd rather see them get some other tools, but Mass Displacement and Weird would be worthwhile.

Conjuration would probably be buffs to summoning, or maybe Conjuration CC (clouds, Web) prevents enemies within their area from teleporting.

Enchantment could extend the time for repeated saving throws. Instead of every X seconds, it would be every X*1.5 seconds, maybe. Or all Enchantment spells could force a reroll of a successful save the first time an enemy is affected by the spell.

Evocation...instant effect spells could have a lingering effect that deals 50% of the damage the spell dealt the first time again 6 seconds later, if the monster failed its initial save (the echo would also allow a save).

Necromancy could grant you <spell level? temporary HP whenever you kill at least one enemy with a spell. That is, if you kill an enemy with Finger of Death or Necrotic Ray, you would gain their spell level in temporary HP (7 and 6 respectively). If you killed 10 enemies with Wail of the Banshee, you would gain 9 temporary HP, because it only triggers once per spell.

Transmutation spells could grant +3% Repair amplification, and gain a random stacking effect that grants +10% movement speed (walking and swimming), +10% attack speed, +2 to an ability score, or +2 to skills.

I'd like to see some kind of conjunction between past life feats and destinies.

I think this is a bad idea. Players shouldn't either like they are losing something else by not TRing, or feel forced to TR.

That said, I think past lives should help lessen the requirements for epic feats.

[sephiroth1084]

I too found it slightly odd that the null magic stacks didn't provide any kind of bonus, but I don't think the spell power fits thematically. I think a better idea is a chance (per stack) to ignore an incoming spell as though it was absorbed by a spell absorption. Maybe 1% per 2 stacks? Shade is correct, they do take forever to build (though I was able to proc it more than he was I think, but that was on a melee arti) and the stacks only apply when you have the null magic aura ability, so it would not be twistable.

What about having them work like a Spell Absorption item (Mantle of the Wordlshaper for example)? Give Nullmagic a stance you can activate that gives you Spell Absportion equal to your stack, where you absorb one spell per charge? This would give you a choice between building up to your Epic Moment and protecting the whole group, or protecting yourself a little.

Or, it could grant 2x charges, but absorb levels of spells. Not sure how the items that work like this function when they are low on charges and a spell with more levels than remaining charges hits them--do you get hit by the spell and lose the charges, or does it start gating only spells it can absorb?

[Joldahks]

Yeah, I'll get rid of that ward. Sounds like it's causing a lot more trouble than it's worth. I'll have a look at what kind of DCs the Succubus is hitting with too, could be that they're just a bit too low.

Is there any way you can look at the strength of the summons in general?

From what I hear they are weak to the point of worthless, like most summons in the game.

I figure summons in an Epic Destiny line are intended to be used and not a red herring.

What is the general intention for the summons in Magister?