Epic Destinies General Feedback

[GermanicusMaximus]

Because you hate Clerics having anything powerful....

Yes, that seems to be a general trend through out the entire expansion. It needs to be fixed, or Turbine should consider making AC 100% effective, because my cleric will be parked based upon the current information I am seeing. I doubt that I will be alone.

[Captain_Wizbang]

- The amount of levelling required in destinies that don't synergize with your character build and concept needs to be sharply decreased.

Example, minor: To get to Unyielding Sentinel, a Fighter tank needs to reach level 4 in Grandmaster of Flowers. .

This makes no sense. Good point sirgog.

The whole idea of weaving through other parts of the tree needs tweaking, and then some. As stated by several about the beginning of your destiny needs some love, and a FREE swap is also a great idea.
As for the price of the "buy out" from the store, that needs to be realistic.

The way it stands now, you'll have people loving it, and grinding away.
And you'll have others not wanting to have anything to do with it!

[Cyr]

My general feedback on epic destinies are that they are alot less work for Turbine then making true epic levels with class levels, epic classes, epic spells, and expanding the PrE (soon to be trees) into levels 21+.

They took the easy way out and it shows.

Of all the things in the xpack that I am not thrilled about this one ranks number one.

[Edwinge]

Personally, I think that rather than having the martial sphere be the central sphere connecting to each of the other 3 via a single branch, there should be more connections between the spheres. I'm not asking for a connection between every destiny or even every sphere, but simply alternative routes for traveling between the spheres.

The simplest (and I'd probably say ideal) option is to, leaving the destinies at their current positions in the spheres, connect Draconic Incarnation to Exalted Angel as well as connect Magister to Fury of the Wild.

This would make it so that Martial is no longer a central hub that everyone has to go through to get from one non-martial sphere to another. It would still make it difficult to move between Divine and Primal, but at least there would be more than one path to go between the two.

All other mechanics of unlocking new destinies could remain the same but simply making more connections between the spheres would allow a lot more freedom in how a character chooses to progress through the destinies without lessening the grind for any but those that are just trying to get to a specific destiny and don't care about twisting fate.

DDO has always been a game that empowers it's players with lots of choice in the way they build their characters. Don't overly limit the choices you give us now. With the current mapping of the spheres there is no choice rather only one way you can move from any one destiny to another.

[HatsuharuZ]

I am not happy about how divines do not get the same opportunities to raise their spell DCs that arcanes do. Is there any reason for this? Divines already have less powerful offensive spells, and their spell amp costs more and gives less than arcane spell amp does. This sort of design really restricts divine casters with what they can and cannot do, in a way that they are not restricted to in other DnD-based games.

Clerics especially are so restricted that their ability to change spells at rest shrines might as well be non-existant.

[Angelus_dead]

Use this thread to provide general feedback about the Epic Destiny system!

These 10 epic destinies have a lot of nice stuff... too much of it. They add too many new character options, in comparison to non-epic levels. I'm not necessarily saying that adding all that complexity is bad (although sometimes it might be), but that it would be better to have provided some of it starting from lower levels.

Look at it this way: How much new stuff is there to learn about playing a Ranger, Paladin, or Fighter at level 20 vs 15? Almost nothing. So if levels 16->20 change hardly anything about how the character works, why should levels 21->25 bring in so much stuff? If it's good for the game that characters get all these abilities to use and conditions to think about, it would also be good if they could've been using them 10-15 levels ago. That is especially true in the case of players who TR, since they'll mostly restart characters upon hitting 20 anyhow.

Many people won't like it when the style of playing their character changes into something else.

In addition to the problem where complexity is too backloaded in levels, there also can be problems with adding the complexity at all. A particular reason for that is DDO's limited UI, which doesn't adapt well to having lots of abilities which are only usable some of the time.

A final worry about complexity: the more complex a new system is, the easier it is to get wrong. And having so many systems in the epic destinies will make it harder to make the upcoming non-epic enhancements both colorful and balanced.

Here's some new character mechanics from epic destinies:

• Casting X / Y spells causes stacking benefits to Y / X, which can also be spent on other features.
• Activating X ability clears the cooldown on Y ability.
• Toggling into exclusive benefits themed on any other class archetype.
• Spend Ki on damaging rays / AOEs.
• Spawn a marker in the world which buffs nearby allies (Globe of Invuln doesn't count since it's not really a buff)
• Tumbling through enemies' space.
• Spell Y only works on enemies already hit with spell X.
• Melee attacks debuff with vulnerability to your spell damage.
• Active feature to buff your next single attack.
• Debuff an enemy that also buffs it against you.
• You get extra protections when your health is low.
• You do extra damage/effects when enemy health is low.
• Stackable buff proc on your attacks.
• Activate a debuff hit proc for a short time (instead of just 1 swing).
• Emergency Hide action during combat.
• Buff to extreme protection for super-short duration.
• Special attack does bonus effect if you've collected a resource.
• Ranged version of melee special attack (like trip).
• Special ability depends on enemy moving / stationary.
• Blocking gives defense against other kinds of attacks, like spells.

Are there any good reasons to deny mechanics like those to characters in the level 10-20 range?


Basically, if it were up to me, most all new mechanics from Epic Destinies would've instead been available at levels 5-15 via feats, enhancements, or specialties. Then epic destinies could've strengthened them, tweaked them, or gave new ways to obtain them.

[sephiroth1084]

These 10 epic destinies have a lot of nice stuff... too much of it. They add too many new character options, in comparison to non-epic levels. I'm not necessarily saying that adding all that complexity is bad (although sometimes it might be), but that it would be better to have provided some of it starting from lower levels.

Look at it this way: How much new stuff is there to learn about playing a Ranger, Paladin, or Fighter at level 20 vs 15? Almost nothing. So if levels 16->20 change hardly anything about how the character works, why should levels 21->25 bring in so much stuff? If it's good for the game that characters get all these abilities to use and conditions to think about, it would also be good if they could've been using them 10-15 levels ago. That is especially true in the case of players who TR, since they'll mostly restart characters upon hitting 20 anyhow.

Many people won't like it when the style of playing their character changes into something else.

In addition to the problem where complexity is too backloaded in levels, there also can be problems with adding the complexity at all. A particular reason for that is DDO's limited UI, which doesn't adapt well to having lots of abilities which are only usable some of the time.

A final worry about complexity: the more complex a new system is, the easier it is to get wrong. And having so many systems in the epic destinies will make it harder to make the upcoming non-epic enhancements both colorful and balanced.

Here's some new character mechanics from epic destinies:

• Casting X / Y spells causes stacking benefits to Y / X, which can also be spent on other features.
• Activating X ability clears the cooldown on Y ability.
• Toggling into exclusive benefits themed on any other class archetype.
• Spend Ki on damaging rays / AOEs.
• Spawn a marker in the world which buffs nearby allies (Globe of Invuln doesn't count since it's not really a buff)
• Tumbling through enemies' space.
• Spell Y only works on enemies already hit with spell X.
• Melee attacks debuff with vulnerability to your spell damage.
• Active feature to buff your next single attack.
• Debuff an enemy that also buffs it against you.
• You get extra protections when your health is low.
• You do extra damage/effects when enemy health is low.
• Stackable buff proc on your attacks.
• Activate a debuff hit proc for a short time (instead of just 1 swing).
• Emergency Hide action during combat.
• Buff to extreme protection for super-short duration.
• Special attack does bonus effect if you've collected a resource.
• Ranged version of melee special attack (like trip).
• Special ability depends on enemy moving / stationary.
• Blocking gives defense against other kinds of attacks, like spells.

Are there any good reasons to deny mechanics like those to characters in the level 10-20 range?


Basically, if it were up to me, most all new mechanics from Epic Destinies would've instead been available at levels 5-15 via feats, enhancements, or specialties. Then epic destinies could've strengthened them, tweaked them, or gave new ways to obtain them.

Agreed.

I'm fine with some totally new effects coming in the epic levels, but we're getting a LOT, and many change the feel of a character, rather than enhancing an existing theme.

For non-casters especially, there are very few real options for differing styles of gameplay. I'm not sure how much I like the "generate some amount of resource X (adrenaline, shadow charges, etc...) to use on Y ability" stuff, but if we're going to have things like that in the game, we should have things like that in the whole game.

[Angelus_dead]

but if we're going to have things like that in the game, we should have things like that in the whole game.

Looking at the development of older MMORPGs (like Everquest and maybe even Asheron) shows a repeated pattern of running into that problem, then fixing it later by moving the abilities down to low level. Warcraft also changed like that recently, with many build-defining feature getting moved down to about level 10 (out of 90).

There's a clever saying for that rule of thumb... something like "Players shouldn't have to wait to play their character as their character plays".

[Angelus_dead]

• Is it a trap that someone can advance to level 25 without having purchased Epic Destiny? Wouldn't that character be gimped in level 25 content?
• It doesn't make sense to bind a keystroke to open an Epic Destiny window. That should be off a menu or charsheet tab. Keystrokes are for frequent actions (especially on the left half).
• When someone is capped for XP, the XP bar is a waste of space and should explode off that screen.
• Instead of listing characters like Fighter20/Epic5, it could be useful to use an icon corresponding to his Epic Destiny choice for the last 5 levels. That icon could be a copy of the corresponding heroic-class icon, maybe with a color tint. That way if I look at a Cleric20/Angel5 and Cleric20/Juggernaut5, I have a better idea of what that character is all about.

[oradafu]

Agreed.

I'm fine with some totally new effects coming in the epic levels, but we're getting a LOT, and many change the feel of a character, rather than enhancing an existing theme.

For non-casters especially, there are very few real options for differing styles of gameplay. I'm not sure how much I like the "generate some amount of resource X (adrenaline, shadow charges, etc...) to use on Y ability" stuff, but if we're going to have things like that in the game, we should have things like that in the whole game.

Two things come to mind about the epic levels.

First, D&D has never been able to deal properly with Epic levels, even back when they were Immortal levels.

Second, this was actually one of my concerns when the Devs brought up expanding the cap. I was vocally against raising the cap until all the prestige classes where completed. There's too much of a gap between the completed prestige classes and incomplete prestige classes within the same class, much less the gaps between the different classes themselves. Finishing the prestige classes should have come first.

I'm hoping with the changes to the enhancements in a future update, some of these new abilities will be shifted downward to the heroic levels. I believe I seem glimmers of this in some of the Destinies. For example, I'm pretty sure the Grandmaster of Flowers ability to tumble through mobs will be an Acrobat ability.

But that leads to another concern I have: incomplete prestige classes finally getting completed in a future update and some of their abilities are duplicated without bonuses in the Destinies they are locked into or the Destinies that they have unlocked now no longer mesh well with the completed prestige classes. We already have people that aren't happy about traveling through Destinies that they don't want anything to do with to get to the Destiny that they want (ex. Divines to the Arcane destinies having to travel through the Martial sphere or Barbarians travelling through the Ranger Destiny to get to the Dreadnought destiny). With the introduction to the new enhancement system, there might be even more angst about the travelling through destinies.

[Rizzia]

I probably echo others thoughts but: Caster level should be based on epic level not dependant on destiny (atm it breeds less versatility)

I'd love to try out all kinds of builds but as caster level is tied to the "main" destiny Im kinda forced to play that one 99% of the time.

[sephiroth1084]

Two things come to mind about the epic levels.

First, D&D has never been able to deal properly with Epic levels, even back when they were Immortal levels.

Second, this was actually one of my concerns when the Devs brought up expanding the cap. I was vocally against raising the cap until all the prestige classes where completed. There's too much of a gap between the completed prestige classes and incomplete prestige classes within the same class, much less the gaps between the different classes themselves. Finishing the prestige classes should have come first.

I'm hoping with the changes to the enhancements in a future update, some of these new abilities will be shifted downward to the heroic levels. I believe I seem glimmers of this in some of the Destinies. For example, I'm pretty sure the Grandmaster of Flowers ability to tumble through mobs will be an Acrobat ability.

But that leads to another concern I have: incomplete prestige classes finally getting completed in a future update and some of their abilities are duplicated without bonuses in the Destinies they are locked into or the Destinies that they have unlocked now no longer mesh well with the completed prestige classes. We already have people that aren't happy about traveling through Destinies that they don't want anything to do with to get to the Destiny that they want (ex. Divines to the Arcane destinies having to travel through the Martial sphere or Barbarians travelling through the Ranger Destiny to get to the Dreadnought destiny). With the introduction to the new enhancement system, there might be even more angst about the travelling through destinies.

Believe me, I would have preferred the enhancement update before the Xpack, despite looking forward to epic levels and new content.

PrEs are long overdue. A revamp to the enhancement system is overdue. These things should have come out at the same time, but someone at Turbine (or Warner Bros.) is calling shots that really boggle the mind, and we're left with this mess.

[barecm]

I am struggling with the twists of fate and how to get enough fate points to twist some of the higher tier stuff. It costs anywhere from 3-4 points just to open a twist and another 3-4 to bump each level. With all the destinies but one power-leveled last night, I was no where near the right amount of fate points to level 1 twist all the way up, let alone 3.

[aerendhil]

-Example, major: To get to Magister, a DC-oriented divine caster needs to reach level 4 in Unyielding Sentinel, level 3 in Grandmaster of Flowers, level 4 in Shadowdancer and finally level 3 in Fatespinner. Ouch. I really don't see a non-synergistic build like FvS20/Shadowdancer3 being particularly fun for most people to play.

I totally agree that the actual mechanic is annoying.

But I don't understand your example : why would a divine caster want to be a magister ? it only grants additionnal caster lever for arcane spells. Could you explain what combo you see there ?

[Captain_Wizbang]

These 10 epic destinies have a lot of nice stuff... too much of it. They add too many new character options, in comparison to non-epic levels. I'm not necessarily saying that adding all that complexity is bad (although sometimes it might be), but that it would be better to have provided some of it starting from lower levels.

Look at it this way: How much new stuff is there to learn about playing a Ranger, Paladin, or Fighter at level 20 vs 15? Almost nothing. So if levels 16->20 change hardly anything about how the character works, why should levels 21->25 bring in so much stuff? If it's good for the game that characters get all these abilities to use and conditions to think about, it would also be good if they could've been using them 10-15 levels ago. That is especially true in the case of players who TR, since they'll mostly restart characters upon hitting 20 anyhow.

Many people won't like it when the style of playing their character changes into something else.

In addition to the problem where complexity is too backloaded in levels, there also can be problems with adding the complexity at all. A particular reason for that is DDO's limited UI, which doesn't adapt well to having lots of abilities which are only usable some of the time.

A final worry about complexity: the more complex a new system is, the easier it is to get wrong. And having so many systems in the epic destinies will make it harder to make the upcoming non-epic enhancements both colorful and balanced.

Here's some new character mechanics from epic destinies:

• Casting X / Y spells causes stacking benefits to Y / X, which can also be spent on other features.
• Activating X ability clears the cooldown on Y ability.
• Toggling into exclusive benefits themed on any other class archetype.
• Spend Ki on damaging rays / AOEs.
• Spawn a marker in the world which buffs nearby allies (Globe of Invuln doesn't count since it's not really a buff)
• Tumbling through enemies' space.
• Spell Y only works on enemies already hit with spell X.
• Melee attacks debuff with vulnerability to your spell damage.
• Active feature to buff your next single attack.
• Debuff an enemy that also buffs it against you.
• You get extra protections when your health is low.
• You do extra damage/effects when enemy health is low.
• Stackable buff proc on your attacks.
• Activate a debuff hit proc for a short time (instead of just 1 swing).
• Emergency Hide action during combat.
• Buff to extreme protection for super-short duration.
• Special attack does bonus effect if you've collected a resource.
• Ranged version of melee special attack (like trip).
• Special ability depends on enemy moving / stationary.
• Blocking gives defense against other kinds of attacks, like spells.

Are there any good reasons to deny mechanics like those to characters in the level 10-20 range?


Basically, if it were up to me, most all new mechanics from Epic Destinies would've instead been available at levels 5-15 via feats, enhancements, or specialties. Then epic destinies could've strengthened them, tweaked them, or gave new ways to obtain them.

ALL OF THIS +1

Two things come to mind about the epic levels.



Second, this was actually one of my concerns when the Devs brought up expanding the cap. I was vocally against raising the cap until all the prestige classes where completed. There's too much of a gap between the completed prestige classes and incomplete prestige classes within the same class, much less the gaps between the different classes themselves. Finishing the prestige classes should have come first.

With the introduction to the new enhancement system, there might be even more angst about the travelling through destinies.

AND THIS


Too much has been left undone to introduce such a complex system. And the pinball game being introduced isn't helping an issue we've had for years.

AND;;; Cyr's post is spot on. Period.

IMO it should go like this;
1) Fix
2) Finish
3) Format (new system)


Seriously, the more we look at the new system, more it becomes a love/hate relationship.

[Atremus]

I am struggling with the twists of fate and how to get enough fate points to twist some of the higher tier stuff. It costs anywhere from 3-4 points just to open a twist and another 3-4 to bump each level. With all the destinies but one power-leveled last night, I was no where near the right amount of fate points to level 1 twist all the way up, let alone 3.

I also agree that Twists need some revising.

[Angelus_dead]

But I don't understand your example : why would a divine caster want to be a magister ? it only grants additionnal caster lever for arcane spells. Could you explain what combo you see there ?

He must be hoping for an Epic Destiny that'll raise spell DC and caster-level cap. Magister will do that, and some of the other features are helpful, but of course the -5 caster level will hurt a little; mostly in spell pen. The majority of spells don't benefit from caster level.

[DarkSable]

My thing is that Destinies were made even MORE of a grind; for someone who's going to be interested in having most destinies capped, I'm staring down the barrel of a LOT of xp.

[Atremus]

My thing is that Destinies were made even MORE of a grind; for someone who's going to be interested in having most destinies capped, I'm staring down the barrel of a LOT of xp.

Each ED fully leveled (XP wise) is 1,980,000

There are 10 of them currently

That is 19,800,000!

[HatsuharuZ]

It occurs to me that all of the +caster level enhancements and Twists of Fate in the epic destinies will take some of the sting out of multiclassing when it involves an arcane caster... well, for TRs, at least.