Newbs vs Vets

[Keybreaker]

I disagree with a lot of you Orienites about this newb vs vet thing. I pulled this out from a discussion started elsewhere b/c I felt it was muddying the vague points of a thread I admitted starting as a "rant" anyway.

(1) Playtime Is Irrelevant
The amount of time you've been playing this game has almost no correlation with how good a player you are. You can't be uber on day one because DDO is very peculiar. But if you're smart enough and coordinated enough, then you can be uber from day two. Conversely, just because you've been playing DDO for a looong time, doesn't necessarily mean you're any "good" at it in the sense of knowledge, skill, temperament, or ability to play well with others.

I've seen "Founders" who've been playing since 2006 who don't know how to raid. I've seen people with 50k+ posts on the forums talk excitedly about completing their first Shroud = their first raid completion ever (not counting TS ofc). There are plently of players who've been playing this game for a long time, who've TR'd toons, who've run 1,000 Shrouds, who are still flat out NOOBS.

On the other hand, I've seen new players who are very smart and very diligent. They are in the extreme minority, and I want to "help" them, because I'll be learning new things from their fresh perspectives (they'll be helping me!). These are the "newb" players that become frustrated and seek out our guild, and we welcome them. If two applicants show equal skill and grasp of the game that's good but not uber, and one has been playing for two years and one has been playing for two months, we will likely reject the two-year "vet" and accept the two-month "newb." The idea is that the two-year "vet" has probably plateaued, whereas the two-month "newb" has uber potential.

(2) No One Needs Their Hand Held
Like a lot of people I hadn't even heard of DDO before it went F2P a couple years ago. When I started playing the game, all newbs were encouraged to start on the newly opened Orien server. There were extremely few "vets" who migrated or visited from the older servers. And no one had any raid gear since it was a new server. The TR'ing feature had not yet been introduced to the game. Essentially, Orien was a server populated almost entirely by nekkid newbs...

It was great! We learned almost everything from scratch. We fumbled and explored. And soon enough, like flotsam in the primordial ooze, players started to coalesce. Altaholics and flower-sniffers saturated Korthos and the Harbor. Raiders camped out in Meridia, farming Shroud every day gearing up for the "real" raids.

The best part of my early experience with DDO was learning things for myself. I was also inundated with conflicting advice about EVERYTHING. Good thing I'm a critical thinker... Using my own experience, logic, and BS-detector, I was able to filter out the good advice from the bad and became a better player. While I love to boast, especially about my guild and our individual and group achievements, for me the real satisfaction of playing this game is figuring out new things and exploring the full breadth of the game, every quest, every raid, on every difficulty.

(3) No One Knows Everything
DDO is complex, and always changing. No one knows everything about the game, no vet, no completionists, not even the game developers who make the game know everything about the game or there wouldn't be any bugs.

I've learned a lot about the game, from my own experience and experimentation, and from the exploration shared by others (which I like to confirm myself whenever possible). I've learned a lot about the game mechanics from my guidie Vanshilar, who's been very generous with sharing his results with the larger forum community.

But I'm the first to admit that I'm ready and willing to learn more. I always entertain new ideas and new strategies. Everyone in my guild is very proactive about learning new content, new features, and mechanics changes. It would be boring to rest on one's laurels. It would be stifling to never alter a raid strategy b/c it works, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. It would be futile to b*tch about every new change and proposed feature instead of learning to adapt to and adopt the evolving game in order to enjoy more of it.

(4) No One Is Obligated to Play with Anyone Else
I won't be playing this game forever, but it's my first MMO experience, and it's kept me interested. I've met a great group of people I enjoy playing it with, and I look forward to meeting new players who share my attitude about the game. But I don't want to play with everyone. I don't want to help everyone. I want to enjoy my leisure time, and I think everyone else has a right to enjoy theirs. To that end, the best strategy is to avoid people that drag you down or bum you out. This is a game after all.

--ADDENDUM--
In far fewer words:

I think I can summarise.

Newb vs Vet is a meaningless distinction.

Better a New Player that has been playing for months, then a similarly skilled player that has been playing for years.

Spoilers do not help develop the playerbase or community

The game changes; adapt, overcome, and win, not whine.

Play with those that bring you up, not those that bring you down.

[morticianjohn]

Playtime is the number 1 most relevant thing in determining if a player is good or not. You talking about forum posts and join dates is totally irrelevant.

The problem is sometimes it isn't overall playtime that matters but quest playtime experience. Take abbot for example would you rather have Joe completionist with 10 capped characters who is in the quest for the first time or someone who has 1/10th the amount of time in the game but has done abbot 20+ times and has experience in all puzzles?

[Keybreaker]

DM: Roll a d20 to see if you hit.
Player: I roll a 1!
DM: You missed the Point.

[morticianjohn]

DM: Roll a d20 to see if you hit.
Player: I roll a 1!
DM: You missed the Point.

Clearly. Could you summarize it?

[Lleren]

I think I can summarise.

Newb vs Vet is a meaningless distinction.

Better a New Player that has been playing for months, then a similarly skilled player that has been playing for years.

Spoilers do not help develop the playerbase or community

The game changes; adapt, overcome, and win, not whine.

Play with those that bring you up, not those that bring you down.

[WoD-IroN]

/gets more popcorn after having a nice laugh reading the two pre-threads to this and seeing how bad people misunderstood what the hell was going on
(i was in the leveling party that sparked the first thread)

[ainmosni]

Clearly. Could you summarize it?

how hard is it to understand that 'how long you've been playing isnt as important as you think it is'? you clearly havent been playing ddo long enough to fully understand this.

[ShadowFlash]

Perspective: Casual, Knowledgeable, Old-school D&D

My own numbering scheme not to be confused with the OP's numberng scheme.

#1 Piking does not "learn" me while you solo the quest
#2 Give me a realistic list of packs to purchase now that leveling is easy...endgame and/or TR focused..nothing else matters at this point
#3 TR'ing 52 times to make a viable character is not an option
#4 I play this game to have fun
#5 Having fun does not mean I don't want to succeed
#6 premium =/= dumb

Disclaimer: I love my Guild...really...sincerely...I love my guild...they are helpful, and run with me EVERY time they are at my level (even though I know my newbnishness irks them) <---rightly so, given the current state of the game. I encourage anyone interested in the same things I am, to join this guild and learn with me I have NEVER had a problem getting into groups, nor do I have anyone on my squelch list. I have had nothing but positive experiences in this game...I simply want to advance. I am patient, and understand it will take time.

#6 good natured rant to follow

Right now, the the forums seem to be at a breaking point. In the past 2 years I have not seen it like this. One half of the forums encourage "smart" play...i.e. patience, strategy, party play.

The other half (and in my mind the important half because it represents where you'll be once you WANT to advance youself farther than the EASY leveling proccess) encourages an entirely different playstyle....The zerg, self-sufficiency...I agree with this play-style...ALL of my builds from day one have embraced self-sufficiency. The problem is, I have never designed them to be fast.

The zerg is where the problem lies. I want to zerg. I don't know how. Piking and "watching" does not teach me how.

The bravery bonus's, XP pots, and etc. encourage TR zergs...this is a good thing...don't change it.

Suggestion: Give a completion time xp bonus. This will encourage new players to not only learn quests...but also encourage new players to learn how to do these quests efficiently and quickly. By doing this, new players can more easily bridge the gap to join vet TR groups without embarrasing themselves. Love it or hate it, this game is turning into an xp/minute philosophy once a single 1st time life is completed and 1st lifer's are ill prepared to handle this transition.

A special note to Quinly: I thank you for putting up with our ****. You are truly helping us transition to better players. I know I'm a pain in the *** and my house can grief you at times...put up with us and reap the rewards of teaching us.

ShadowFlash

[sidgarret]

(1) Playtime Is Irrelevant

I fully agree with your whole post but in my personal experience there is some relevance to playtime in a few cases. A player with longer playtime is usually better at position themselves during fights and gameplay - putting themselves out of harms way and get the job done taking less damage.

A more experienced player is also more likely to adapt when things go wrong and help sort out the situation. And in my own case - with longer playtime your shortcuts and hotbars is hard in your memory - making u faster to react. The last point might be only me though since im an old fart and it takes longer nowadays to get things in my memory

[phillymiket]

(1) Playtime Is Irrelevant

I fully agree with your whole post but in my personal experience there is some relevance to playtime in a few cases. A player with longer playtime is usually better at position themselves during fights and gameplay - putting themselves out of harms way and get the job done taking less damage.

A more experienced player is also more likely to adapt when things go wrong and help sort out the situation. And in my own case - with longer playtime your shortcuts and hotbars is hard in your memory - making u faster to react. The last point might be only me though since im an old fart and it takes longer nowadays to get things in my memory

I agree.

I also agree with OP.

Ex.
I'm sure at work we all know people that have been there forever.
They are steady. They are so familiar with the environment that they can get twice as much done as a new person.
That doesn't necessarily mean they have a particular talent for what they are doing.
If a new wrinkle is added the old vet may not adjust as well or at all.

Experience is very useful and all things being equal an experienced person does better at most things.
However, raw talent, willpower, intelligence and determination will always trump experience in short order.

Experience is easily gained by the talented.
Talent is hard gained with experience.
.

[deahamlet]

There is a completion time bonus, it's part of the XP per minute. If you don't do it fast, you don't level as fast since the amount of time/effort you allocate to ddo isn't likely to change.

The Zerg becomes easier based on a couple of factors:
1. Quest knowledge. Know whether to bother with ransack, know which areas are not necessary. Know the amount of mobs and damage they put out so you know when to stop and deliver the pain. Know where the traps are. Know what kind of levers you need to pull. Etc etc etc.
2. Build knowledge. Zerging is always easier your second time with the same class. Even if not perfectly self-sufficient, playing wisely can turn a toon into a self-sufficient one (fleshy wizard who can survive on pots due to using the right buffs, the right spells, the right tactics)

I don't believe anyone can give you these two. They must be hard earned and one has to have willingness. Running across the map dying or nearly dying or being kept alive by a very talented divine does not teach Zerging.
In fact, half the time running quests or a class for the first time in a group of vets can be detrimental. You'll likely only see part of the quest, learn nothing about it and never know whether it went smoothly because or despite you.

Skill.
Playtime is relevant when in context of what you do with that playtime. If you have avoided level 20 and raids like the plague, you'll be new and clueless despite playing for years.
But then there's being willing. You can run all the content, if you're not willing to learn and just want to run through raids brain dead half the time on auto-attack, you will not learn anything. Duh.

I like the last point. It's trickier running around in random pugs (not a fan of the dramuh 'but I hate that player, if he stays, I'm leaving'), one of twelve people could potentially rub you the wrong way. But it's 30 minutes, focus the hate on that dragon or demon or oh gawds the abbot... Outside raids, make your own groups, solo.. This game is nice that way, there's options.

[kauetomaz]

just clearing out yet another misconception that ppl have when it comes to newbs vs vets

Vets are indeed willing to help and even go out of their way to help u.
i started playin ddo in october/2011. yeah it hasnt been that long at all when i stop to think about it. and at least up until february i had no clue what i was doin (not that i do now but hey whos counting lol) and i still remember one beautiful summer day (ok it was winter) when i joined one of OR's multiples "open to pugs" raids. in that specific raid i kept my mouth shut. listened to all they had to say (which in all honesty was more insults to each other then gameplay advice to me but it was entertainin enough). and at the end of the raid even manage to pull my first ever tod ring. after the raid i went and spoke to NIX, who took time off not only from a day or a random day to help me understand the game and become better but made sure that whenever i was online he woiuld come talk to me and ask about my improvements, if i had any problems and if there was anything he could do to help. after a while he introduced me to the rest of them. who even tho i know of a feel who got me on their squelch list (key comes to mind, but thats a different subject lol) they all helped in making me understand the game better and get me where i am today. i can now complete tr's in 3/4 days and do just about any quest solo and take on the most difficult raids (pls note that im not braggin, as i truly feel thats nothing to brag about it). would i ever be here without the help of those vets? NO
were they elitists j#rks? NO
are they all a nice bunch of ppl? NO (not aimed at any1 in particular btw
are they willing to help u become better if u show that u can take advice and are serious about gettin better? YES!!! and this from what i have experienced is not only NIX, or the OR guys. there r a great bunch of ppl out there that r always willing to help. to name but a few: nix, massiv, OBVeril, sheepish, gondill, manntis, shalera, shataam and so many others (but naming nice ppl is on the other thread not this one so ill stop here).
so put ur big boy pants on, think about what u rly want from this game, and if that is to improve and u can listen and take advice and not be a lil kid about it. then im pretty sure u will find that orien is rly the best server to be. so let us stop fightin about st#pid sh!t on those forums and get back in the game coz we still got 22 days till the xpack and a lot to do =]

[Mubjon]

I have been in the game for about 3 years, and I started on sarlona and still play there most of the time. It is where my TR is and my highest level characters. I do have 2 cleric builds on Orien and I love the server. Have not had a bad time with any pug, surely I have not ran into a bunch of elitist as I have on some other server that I will not mention (no not sarlona although there are some there).

I speak a lot about having others being self-sufficient and that I will not heal you while on my clerics through your dumb decisions. This comes about after running pugs almost exclusively and telling those I run with how to help me help them. I will run with anyone and any build (heck I do some crazy builds myself so why should I discriminate against others that attempt the same). I will explain to them how best to receive healing during a fight and expect them to follow that advice, I am after all the person trying to keep them up during the quest and contribute to other ways of taking out the mobs and boss.

I have found more times than not (so far not on Orien) that those that have been here as long or longer than I do not seem to understand or care to do what it takes to ensure that the person healing in the party can do so. And after saying to them to not run around a corner if they are taking heavy damage, or not to run back to the entrance but towards me. I find the "vets" (goes for TR's too) normally are the ones that do not bother and then complain when there is finally a ding on them. Most of the time I will raise them once, and a few times if we are fighting a boss that is quite annoying, I hardly raise someone that dies a second time on that trap that they were warned about before hand, or goes bounding off leaving the party behind to the next group of mobs that I just raised and healed them to full health the first time.

anyway just wanted to say that so far Orien has a pretty decent pug scene have not added a single person yet to my friend list (This is the list of people I do not quest with on that server) so that is a good thing seeing I have been here for about 3 months now.

If there are any newer players reading this then feel free to add Mubjon Clief (can grab traps as well as heal) to your friends list on Orien, if I am online and you need a cleric I will more than likely come and help out. Understand that I am not a healbot and will cast offensive spells or CC spells to help mitigate damage and occasionally swing the sword or warhammer if needed.

[Shaatan]

(3) No One Knows Everything

You are obiviously forgetting about Shade :P

[Lleren]

You are obiviously forgetting about Shade :P

MrCow instead perhaps

[Jsbeer]

(3) No One Knows Everything

You are obiviously forgetting about Shade :P

MrCow instead perhaps

Sadly have to agree with Lleren here - Shade knows more than 99% of the forumites here, but MrCow is the cream of the herd or something like that.......

[morticianjohn]

I think I can summarise.

Newb vs Vet is a meaningless distinction.

Better a New Player that has been playing for months, then a similarly skilled player that has been playing for years.

Spoilers do not help develop the playerbase or community

The game changes; adapt, overcome, and win, not whine.

Play with those that bring you up, not those that bring you down.

This seems pretty eloquent and stuff that I mostly agree with (+1 thank you for a summary) but I don't read this in the OP.

In point 1 (playtime is irrelevant) of the OP I'm reading stuff about founders who don't know anything (join date doesn't always mean that they've been an active player for 6 years) or people with a lot of forum posts who know nothing (again, the number of forum posts doesn't actually mean the person has a ton of playing experience). Basically I disagree that playtime is irrelevant. (I kinda like how sidgarret described it) I can't think of any other factor that would dictate better who would be a better player than playtime. Specifically, I would call it "quality playtime". I think that if there was a way to measure quality playtime it would hit pretty well the skill of each player. Sure there would be some outliers (people who simply have quick reflexes and/or people who are just slow) but in general if we could measure quality playtime it would give you the expected worth of a player with excellent results.


The next three points I agree with but I think have very little to do with newbie vs. Vet IMO which is the title of the topic.

point number 2 is that no one needs their hand held which is something I agree with. Even with the discussion about the start of the orien server I don't see how this is connected to the newbie vs vet conversation.

point 3 is that no one knows everything which I agree with and the points he makes that follow are good and well spoken. There are some (such as mr cow) who know a lot but the point about adapting to changes is very relevant with the expansion coming out and all the changes associated with that. Is this point directed at the newbies to get them to research information given to them by the veteran players so they can filter the stuff that is bad info from the good info?

point 4 is that no one is obligated to play with anyone. I agree with this also but this seems like more of a playstyle discussion than a newbie vs vet discussion. If the play styles mesh well a 3 year player and a 3 month player could enjoy each other's company. In this matter it isn't about the amount of time spent playing the game but this is totally different than saying that the average player who has been playing 3 months is as good as the average player who has been playing 3 years (assuming the same amount of time per day) as point number 1 is claiming.



So while I appreciate the summary I would like to talk more about these things and how they are related to the newbie vs vet experience.

[Lleren]

Well, I think you might find this line interesting then

Conversely, just because you've been playing DDO for a looong time, doesn't necessarily mean you're any "good" at it in the sense of knowledge, skill, temperament, or ability to play well with others.

While two of those can be increased by running content, they are also in the range where research and metagame discussion can help. The final two are often decreased by disobeying the last point, playing with those that get you down, and also by simply playing more hours then is good for you.

While I agree that "quality playtime" is a factor, and it might even edge out research for developing knowledge. The massive amounts of hours simply poured in while you are bored and not doing much, especially over months and years, tend to make one worse to play with. We could call that the Jaded Vet effect, if they quit for a month or so and come back when they miss the game, they'd be better to play with.

[Keybreaker]

I think I can summarise.

Newb vs Vet is a meaningless distinction.

Better a New Player that has been playing for months, then a similarly skilled player that has been playing for years.

Spoilers do not help develop the playerbase or community

The game changes; adapt, overcome, and win, not whine.

Play with those that bring you up, not those that bring you down.

DM: Critical hit! You receive a permanent bonus to your greenis.

Reading is fundamental...

[Dalros]

I really need to read more forum sutff on Orien,

Was suprised to see my name pop up considering that i'm trying to hide my presence :P

Kudos to those that can find out who i am :P

Ok i'm just lurking, but i'll add my thoughts to this as well, willing new players are a joy to teach, and might suprise you what might just grow from that right nudge you give.

I remember back when Massiv was a complete new player and i brought him around vale showing him stuff that i know.

A joy of teaching so to speak, when the pupil exceed the master, more or less