Rogue builds (for a TR) for raids/epics?

[RS-Makk]

I'm coming back to the game after a long absence, and getting close to TR and am trying to weigh my options. One of them is to TR into a Rogue build (I already have a Rad 2 rapier, and a bunch of other Greensteel rapiers to go with it).

A couple of questions:

1 - How 'welcome' are rogues currently in epic content? (back then it seemed to me it was hard for rogues to get into epics)

2 - I was wondering what build recommendations folks had for Rogue that would have good end game (raids and epic) utility. It seemed to me something of concern usually for epics was squishiness.. what are some options out there in terms of build that reduce the squishiness and increase survivability?

[Grace_ana]

I've never had a problem getting into raids or epics on my rogue. I'm on Khyber, fwiw. I don't know where you are or how it is on other servers.

As far as the rest of your question, there are many ways to do that depending on what you want your rogue to do at end game. Are you the kind of person that just wants to hit stuff and have tons of hp? Do you want to get a high UMD level? Do you want to manage epic traps? Are you planning to use assassinate? If you can tell us a bit more, we can answer your question better.

I personally have found that using assassinate, managing aggro effectively with diplo/bluff and threat reduction, and having high UMD to heal has made me more survivable and more welcome in parties. Who doesn't want a back-up healer? I will also warn you that if you are majority rogue and can't do epic traps, you will be less welcome in epics, so you'll likely want to put some effort into that. It doesn't take a lot, but maxing skill points and getting good gear is important.

Also, AC is changing a ton in the next update, so if you are thinking of doing anything with that, you'll want to hold off.

[WangChi]

Are you the kind of person that just wants to hit stuff and have tons of hp? Do you want to get a high UMD level? Do you want to manage epic traps? Are you planning to use assassinate?

A good end-game rogue can (read *should) do all of those things, it's the rogues that specialize (only do traps) that have a rougher time getting into epic/end-game raid groups. In the end, it has far more to do with gear and player skill than build.

Character skills are not an issue really, you'll have so many skill points as a rogue that you can keep all the important ones maxed out (dd, search, spot, open lock, umd, bluff/diplo, etc).

As far as stats go, if you prefer strength based damage and to-hit, then make sure you have enough dex for the two-weapon fighting line. If you prefer dex based to-hit (finesse build), make sure you have enough strength to do damage. And regardless of your attack preference, make sure you have the hit points to sustain damage, because at some point, you'll get aggro. I wouldn't start with less than 14con and make sure you do all the usual things for increasing HP (GFL, Toughness feat & item, GS HP item, con tome, con+ item). If you're going to go assassin, make sure you have the int to get a decent end-game assassinate dc. I started my rogue with a 14int and now have a 42dc assassinate dc (potentially 45 with potions, yugo/store/house d). You can safely dump charisma and wisdom. An end-game UMD of over 40 is easily obtainable with a starting 8 charisma.

Race - doesn't matter, I haven't seen a race that can't be made into a good rogue. I prefer human for the extra feat and adaptability stat enhancements, or half-elf for the dilettante feat and adaptability stat enhancements. Just my preference though, go with what you like.

Then it's all about grinding gear. Have fun, I sure did.

[HidalgoXaran]

Hi mate,

I play a 28 point build pure assassin named Friia on Sarlona. She is my first character and still my favorite. I thought about TRing, but as I am now F2P, I'd lose all the favors I've got with every house and I want to reach the Favor Soul achievement. Anyway...

I don't have any difficulties getting in Epic Groups. Usualy, there won't be more than one rogue, but it does happens like in EBob or Red Fens stuff.

I do honestly think that my greatest contribution to groups is assassinating. That because it happens in every quest. For those quests with traps, of course, disarming comes first. As far as I am concerned, I prefer paralysing weapon over Rad2, unless I'm soloing. I use Epic Midnight greeting and switch the other weapon. The mains are Epic Piarlan Spy Dagger, Rad2 and Polycurse Dagger. I haven't tried the Envenomed Blade so far and am crafting my second EMG.

About the Polycurse Dagger, it's definitively my favorite. It's a tricky blade, but combined with a paralysing one, it makes wonders as it allows you to avoid being hit, and consequantly, auto-cursed. Few days ago, this blade allowed me to Curse/Exhaust/Corrosive salt the Abhishaï boss in EChrono. I then switched to DPS, and then to Polycurse, etc. Bluffing the boss meanwhile (I think it has an effect on the group DPS but I'm not sure). Paralysing and debuffing the Devils and the Armorers in that quest is quite enjoyable.
I only talk of Echrono because it's a quite demanding quest. If you do well in that one, You should do well in any Epic quest. EpicTharask Arena is a pure assassination partytime. Just love it!

In conclusion, I want to say that I am not a powercreep player. I've got decent gears, but not the best (as you can see in in MyDDO/Friia of Sarlona). Anyone a bit motivated for grinding will do better that I do, and I still do pretty fine, never get bad comments nor difficulties to get into Epic groups.

Have fun with your TR!

Edited: Just to say that Friia as got something like 384 HP. I could have more with my GS cape, but Iprefer the one I've got from Pirate event. As soon as I craft my belt of Mrroranon, things will be different though. I just play in consequence to that low Hpness.

[karl_k0ch]

I feel that there is some prejudice on rogues being not so viable, but if you manage to show that you are a decent player playing a melee which can survive in epic quests (having 400+ HP helps to deflect contradicting assumptions), then you are quite welcome in epic quests. Being someone who can instakill casters is never a bad thing. Traps, UMD and melee dps are also things which are useful.

Currently, I think that a Human Str-based or Int-based (with decent Str) Assassin are both very good options. Finesse is not too far behind, especially when you specialize yourself on very particular weapons like Epic Midnight Greetings and Envenomend Blade.

[Grace_ana]

A good end-game rogue can (read *should) do all of those things

I'd agree, but not everyone would. It's good to get those assumptions out on the table right away.

[RS-Makk]

Regarding my goal - I guess I want to fill the role that would be most useful to the epic/raid party.. so that probably does mean to be able to cover all those bases. I honestly don't know enough about assassinate and rogues yet to determine if I am interested in an STR based, INT based, or DEX based, and right now am just trying to get educated and understand the trade-offs to decide what I would do. To be honest I am struggling right now whether when I TR I should do rogue, monk, or something with fighter.. and am trying to understand the options (currently I am 12 Ranger / 7 Rogue / 1 Monk with a lot of the recommended gear for Exploiters.. so I have DPS gear and AC gear that is good for the standards of a couple of years ago).

A couple of more general questions.

Regarding weapons, short of the weapons you get from the traditional epics (ie - only taking into account greensteel, challenges, alchemical crafting, cannith crafting, etc...), what would you folks recommend for a pierce spec'd rogue to get setup to then start grinding out those eMG and such? I already have (rapiers) a Rad2, a Lit2, a Min2. I also have the epic cove shortblade (level 20 tier 3). My current boss beaters are the Lit2 (for the lower difficulty raids with the lower DR), the Min2, and a +5 Silver Holy Burst of PG. For devil bosses I am guessing I should find a friendly crafter and get myself some boss beaters? For trash, am I set with some combo of the Rad2 / Lit2 / shortblade, or should I craft another Lit2 or get a Rapier of Air? (not sure what's better to pair with my rad2 or lit2). Also, for epics, any use out of earthgrab weapons? (I crafted a pair of picks before the change to auto-crit and those were great, not sure if a pair of GS earthgrab rapiers would be a good thing now).

For undead, what do pure rogues usually do? My current build has 1 monk level so for undead I throw on the epic mabar wraps, swap from the Ravager ring to a ToD ring with holy burst on it, and throw on a couple of other things that help my unarmed damage such as garments of equilibrium and go to town. But what's a pure rogue to do? (I assume a pure rogue is recommended above something with a monk splash, unless I am going for some unarmed build).

Regarding armor - outfits ok? (I have all sorts of outfits from my current exploiter build)

Recommended/ideal Past Life? (I am willing to LR a bunch to get a different level mix to get the right past life)

I am also struggling regarding race.. half-elf seems like a solid choice, but with so much up in the air regarding the upcoming enhancement pass I am not sure if I should perhaps hold off to TR until that comes (and in the meantime just keep grinding stuff but under my current build).

Thanks much for your input!

[WangChi]

If you aren't against grinding for gear, you can easily do all of the things I mentioned.

Traps - +15/+20 skill bonus items, a decent stat bonus and max out your skills and you'll be ok. Easily handle any end-game trap.

Hitting stuff - Divine power clickies (5 charge rings work great here, I've got 4 of them on mine), +2 or better competence bonus (cannith cafted perhaps), +2 or better exceptional bonus (ToD set maybe), and a good stat bonus and you'll be just fine. On my rogue, I use the warpriest ToD set, it has a +2 competence bonus and a +2 exceptional bonus. Combined with my high strength (40+ buffed up) and ship buffs and I have no problems hitting anything in end-game so far. I typically leave power-attack on unless I'm against something very very high AC.

HP - Con +6 or better item (epic envenomed cloak?), +3 exceptional con (ToD ring?), +2 or better tome, GFL, Toughness item, GS HP item (Necklace or belt is probably best depending on the ToD set you use), 5-piece abishai if you can grind it is another +3 con, ship buffs. Well over 500hp is possible.

Str, Dex or Int - This is such a completely overblown, overrated and over talked topic, but somehow it always comes up for rogues. I use a strength (40+) build, but I have plenty of dex (mid 20's) and int (30+) for traps, reflex save and assassinate dc's. The biggest problem I have with going dex or int based on a rogue has nothing to do with dps or assassinate dc's, it has to do with feats. Rogues need feats, and weapon finesse eats one up when it can be avoided by going strength based instead. Toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC, PL - those are the must haves in my opinion. Power attack, oversized two weapon fighting (don't underestimate to-hit on a rogue, you'll need it against high-ac targets) are good options to fill out your feat selection if you don't take weapon finesse. But like I said, this is an overblown topic, you can go dex based, just don't dump str and int, you can go int based, just don't dump str and dex, you can go strength based, just don't dump dex and int.

As for past life - I would go rogue if I were you. The passive rogue PL is great, but the active feat is just ridiculously awesome on a capped rogue.

Undead - I use 2 holy maces of disruption. Most undead don't last very long when you TWF with those.

Outfits are great, I have 2 sets of dragontouched outfits I alternate depending on what I'm doing.

I think for a first-time pure rogue, you'll like half-elf or human the best. For a couple reasons, first, stat management. You can gear up and change your adaptability or dilettante enhancements to get an extra strength or con or int if needed. Second, rogue haste boost can be used at the same time as human versatility damage. That's an insane amount of burst DPS, you will love it.

Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into a str/dex/int holy war thread...again...but regardless, good luck with your build.

[Rogann]

1. Rogues are always welcome(of course it depends on your build/gear)If you dont have gear and your builds garbage your gonna get declined obv. Personally on Sarlona if they dont accept my rogue after 30 secs i send them a tell saying "im max geared/44 str unbuffed". Then they accept me. However if your just starting off and got minimal gear it can be hard to get into a group(Note:Quests like epic von 1 people usually accept anyone, Its the epic raids that are iffy)

2.http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=352591 This may help you out alot.

[Rogann]

Regarding my goal - I guess I want to fill the role that would be most useful to the epic/raid party.. so that probably does mean to be able to cover all those bases. I honestly don't know enough about assassinate and rogues yet to determine if I am interested in an STR based, INT based, or DEX based, and right now am just trying to get educated and understand the trade-offs to decide what I would do. To be honest I am struggling right now whether when I TR I should do rogue, monk, or something with fighter.. and am trying to understand the options (currently I am 12 Ranger / 7 Rogue / 1 Monk with a lot of the recommended gear for Exploiters.. so I have DPS gear and AC gear that is good for the standards of a couple of years ago).

A couple of more general questions.

Regarding weapons, short of the weapons you get from the traditional epics (ie - only taking into account greensteel, challenges, alchemical crafting, cannith crafting, etc...), what would you folks recommend for a pierce spec'd rogue to get setup to then start grinding out those eMG and such? I already have (rapiers) a Rad2, a Lit2, a Min2. I also have the epic cove shortblade (level 20 tier 3). My current boss beaters are the Lit2 (for the lower difficulty raids with the lower DR), the Min2, and a +5 Silver Holy Burst of PG. For devil bosses I am guessing I should find a friendly crafter and get myself some boss beaters? For trash, am I set with some combo of the Rad2 / Lit2 / shortblade, or should I craft another Lit2 or get a Rapier of Air? (not sure what's better to pair with my rad2 or lit2). Also, for epics, any use out of earthgrab weapons? (I crafted a pair of picks before the change to auto-crit and those were great, not sure if a pair of GS earthgrab rapiers would be a good thing now).

For undead, what do pure rogues usually do? My current build has 1 monk level so for undead I throw on the epic mabar wraps, swap from the Ravager ring to a ToD ring with holy burst on it, and throw on a couple of other things that help my unarmed damage such as garments of equilibrium and go to town. But what's a pure rogue to do? (I assume a pure rogue is recommended above something with a monk splash, unless I am going for some unarmed build).

Regarding armor - outfits ok? (I have all sorts of outfits from my current exploiter build)

Recommended/ideal Past Life? (I am willing to LR a bunch to get a different level mix to get the right past life)

I am also struggling regarding race.. half-elf seems like a solid choice, but with so much up in the air regarding the upcoming enhancement pass I am not sure if I should perhaps hold off to TR until that comes (and in the meantime just keep grinding stuff but under my current build).

Thanks much for your input!

Str builds the best. Int/dex based are not optimal in any way. Yes get yourself some crafted boss beat weapons..lit 2 khopeshs.

Pure rogues te best.

Robes/outfits...DT armors fine.

Human/horc/helf/halfling

Rogue pastlife is prob the best.

[Grace_ana]

Horc, really? Good lord.

Anyway.

Str is the easiest probably in a lot of ways, but dex has its advantages too. I think the dex vs. str argument is going to get a shakeup come the expansion, so if you can hold off on your TR until after that, I would. Similar to your question about outfits - sure, they're fine now, but again I'd hold off on those decisions until after the expansion.

FWIW, the end game gear I'm accumulating/working towards looks something like this:

head - Pirate hat with SIFL and conc +10
neck - GS triple neg/GS lit II with all charisma skills
trinket - epic spyglass from cove, slotted with toughness
cloak - epic cloak of night
bracers - GS min II HP
goggles - tinker's goggles
gloves - tinker's gloves
belt - epic spare hand, slotted with str +6 and con +6
ring 1 - ToD mechanic ring, slotted with exc. con +2
ring 2 - epic ring of the stalker, slotted with cha +6 and good luck +2
boots - Cannith boots
armor - DT with healing amp 10%/20% and either the melodic guard or radiance guard
weapons - assortment of rad II rapier, epic MG, epic envenomed blade, epic rapier of air, and the requisite banishing/smiting/disruption sets (I'm TWF, and unless you go qstaff rogue/monk, you should definitely go TWF). I used the epic smallblade before I got the eMG. The stuff you have seems to be fine, as long as you get sets for different types of mobs.

What this gives me is mid 400s hp unbuffed, excellent trap skills, immunities/saves, sneak attack bonuses of +5/+8, UMD of 36-42 which allows me to do pretty much anything, epic level assassination (this and trap skills requires a decent starting int; I started with 14 and ate a +2 tome, which gives me an int of 27 right now with gear and an assassinate DC of 40), and a little heal amp for survivability. For a first life rogue, I do pretty well. The bonus of the gear setup is that none of it is exceptionally hard to get. Grinding is fun, excessive grinding is not, especially when you're on multiple lives and have done it all before.

Undead are the bane of every rogue, myself included. Disruptors help, and before you get to that level make sure you have the appropriate holy weapons. Honestly, in undead-heavy quests I just prefer to be in a group. It's just not worth the headache for me, and I don't mind grouping anyway.

However, another option is to multiclass with monk as you've already found. A 13/7 rogue/light monk split will help you deal with undead and give you some flexibility. You'll lose out on the crazy sneak attack dice a capstone will give you, but you will get a bit more on the non-sneak attack front. I have a acrobat/light monk that is fun in undead quests.

Lastly, I have a halfling, and I like her a lot as a rogue. Well, I like halflings in general, but they're particularly good as rogues. If you don't go halfling, human is good for the extra feat, and helf is decent if you can stand to look at them. I wouldn't recommend any other race, really.

[Quarterling]

Horc, really? Good lord.

Agreed, probably the worst race you can go. A penalty to intelligence and charisma?? No thanks.

Halfling, Human, or Drow would be the most beneficial IMHO.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was looking for a specifically end game viable rogue on my trip to a final monk but have shelved that idea as I love what I've come up with some much ("Not your average rogue" in my sig).

Highlights:

• Ability to lock down 2-3 epic mobs simultaneously without needing outside support (OID, Stunning Fist, Stunning Blow)
• Ability to deal with mobs with stunning fist that only an incredibly high assassinate DC rogue could (49 stunning fist DC currently - enough for everything at 95% success rate except a few unique mobs)
• 500 to 680 HP depending on what's needed (I've tanked some epic quests)
• High AB (no penalty for TWF'ing - this is important as some mobs have quite high AC in epics)
• Fastest application of vorpal possible that I know of (handwrap attack speed+haste boost IV)
• No swap epic trap disabling (mostly - sometimes swap in a +5 enhancement if I'm unsure)
• No swap no fail Heal Scrolls (easy swap for no-fail resurrection scrolls etc)
• Very solid melee DPS (44 str with sustainable buffs, up to 54 burst iirc)

[destiny4405]

if you like high DPS, check out build in my sig. specialized in hand to hand combat

For undead, what do pure rogues usually do? My current build has 1 monk level so for undead I throw on the epic mabar wraps, swap from the Ravager ring to a ToD ring with holy burst on it, and throw on a couple of other things that help my unarmed damage such as garments of equilibrium and go to town. But what's a pure rogue to do?

UMD Mournlode or triple pos warhammers.

I am also struggling regarding race.

human is the best imo. extra feat and HV.

[Rogann]

Horc, really? Good lord.

Anyway.

Str is the easiest probably in a lot of ways, but dex has its advantages too.

head - Pirate hat with SIFL and conc +10
neck - GS triple neg/GS lit II with all charisma skills
trinket - epic spyglass from cove, slotted with toughness
cloak - epic cloak of night
bracers - GS min II HP
goggles - tinker's goggles
gloves - tinker's gloves
belt - epic spare hand, slotted with str +6 and con +6
ring 1 - ToD mechanic ring, slotted with exc. con +2
ring 2 - epic ring of the stalker, slotted with cha +6 and good luck +2
boots - Cannith boots
armor - DT with healing amp 10%/20% and either the melodic guard or radiance guard
weapons - assortment of rad II rapier, epic MG, epic envenomed blade, epic rapier of air, and the requisite banishing/smiting/disruption sets (I'm TWF, and unless you go qstaff rogue/monk, you should definitely go TWF). I used the epic smallblade before I got the eMG. The stuff you have seems to be fine, as long as you get sets for different types of mobs.

Ive played a Horc rogue close to a year(if not longer). Ive tr'd once and got him max geared. Horc imo is one of the best choices due to there higher base dmg/to-hit/more haste boosts.

I really dont wanna start another dex or str rogue thread battle royal. But i dont see any advantages Dex has over Str rogues endgame.

Dex rogues get a higher ac(useless endgame), higher reflex saves(not a big deal) and you need to use a feat.(forced to use only 2 weapons to make your base dmg viable)

Str rogues get higher dmg/to-hit.(Can use any weapons)

Obv Str rogues are superior.(Im talking NOW, when the expansion comes out ill talk about it then...)

Your gear loadout seems really bad to me.

[RS-Makk]

A gear related question

Shintao set + Ravager set

or.. Shintao set + Ring of the Stalker & Spare Hand

or perhaps Ravager set + Ring of Stalker?

?

(I currently have both ToD sets, and enough materials to craft both the Stalker ring and spare hand.. so all the options are doable for me)

[grandeibra]

I'd say in most situations and most builds str rogues are better than dex rogues. Int rogues on the other hand may be superior to str. That said, here are some reasons why dex rogues are not completely gimp:

1 AC. If you get monk levels you can get to 100+ AC in raids and still have a 700+ dps mode available. Without monk level I wouldn't consider dex. With monk levels doing elite sins is a cakewalk and I enjoy many other solo/tanking quests. I'd still say str or int is better in total
2 A full 'tard dex build needs only get to 13 str for PA. A full str build needs to get to 17 dex. So dex build can put more into int (or con) if they want
3 Using dex weapons gives you the full dex on off-hand vs half str
4 Better reflex saves
5 Better defensive roll - possibly the most underrated feat of all imo. A dex rogue will have a roll of >50%. So every other hit when below 100hp or so is negated as well as any special effect. Pretty close to those hp being worth 200hp ^^ Can't count the number of times I've seen my dex rogue save once twice or three times at low hp. absolutely awesome feat, esp. on full tard dex rogue
6 Slightly better pick lock (kinda meh but can farm tough to open chests like von1 for SoS seal) or can put less points into OL
7 Races that fit dex builds give some dps bonuses like the +8 sneak damage/+2 extra rapier damage. Ofc str builds can use these races as well so kind of a moot point and ofc more str/con-type races have other benefits


From what I've seen of the change to ac dex will be completely annihilatled this summer unless they make some big changes though

About ravager: unless they changed it this set can't be used on an assassin build since it gets you out of sneak. Apart from that it is imho the best tod set

[SableShadow]

Regarding weapons, short of the weapons you get from the traditional epics (ie - only taking into account greensteel, challenges, alchemical crafting, cannith crafting, etc...), what would you folks recommend for a pierce spec'd rogue to get setup to then start grinding out those eMG and such? I already have (rapiers) a Rad2, a Lit2, a Min2. I also have the epic cove shortblade (level 20 tier 3). My current boss beaters are the Lit2 (for the lower difficulty raids with the lower DR), the Min2, and a +5 Silver Holy Burst of PG. For devil bosses I am guessing I should find a friendly crafter and get myself some boss beaters? For trash, am I set with some combo of the Rad2 / Lit2 / shortblade, or should I craft another Lit2 or get a Rapier of Air? (not sure what's better to pair with my rad2 or lit2). Also, for epics, any use out of earthgrab weapons? (I crafted a pair of picks before the change to auto-crit and those were great, not sure if a pair of GS earthgrab rapiers would be a good thing now).

Sounds like you're very much ahead of the game, compared to a lotta folks.

Off-hand small blade, mainhand lit 2 is still best overall dps I think (on non-dr mobs) ... the rest I'm not sure of.

For undead, what do pure rogues usually do? My current build has 1 monk level so for undead I throw on the epic mabar wraps, swap from the Ravager ring to a ToD ring with holy burst on it, and throw on a couple of other things that help my unarmed damage such as garments of equilibrium and go to town. But what's a pure rogue to do? (I assume a pure rogue is recommended above something with a monk splash, unless I am going for some unarmed build).

Blunt triple positives tear undead up.

A gear related question

Shintao set + Ravager set

or.. Shintao set + Ring of the Stalker & Spare Hand

or perhaps Ravager set + Ring of Stalker?

?

(I currently have both ToD sets, and enough materials to craft both the Stalker ring and spare hand.. so all the options are doable for me)

I dumped ToD rings for eBaphomet + eStalker. +1 ex Con on B, +1 ex Str / +1 ex Int on Stalker, Litany to even things out. Will depend on your gear ... the Stalker vorp damage on high HP targets stacks w/ the Assassin vorp, so you get +200 dmg on a 20 vice +100 dmg (assuming assassin). Tinker's set (easy grind) for poor man's Tharnes + base int for Assasinate (until I get a good epic reslot for base int).

On the other hand, I'm grinding the easy epics these days, so the +to hit off my shintao isn't missed ... gonna depend on what you're runnin'. You'll likely feel it a bit if you pop into, say, the desert and don't run with a bard regularly. Depending on the rest of your gear.

I don't run my Ravager set; ran out of spots for GFL and decided the HP were more important, so got a Mroranonoaoaoaoaoan's belt for the fort and +7 str, slotted the yellow w/ GFL. I play elves. Sue meh.