Looking for a TWF tactic fighter build

[Ianis]

hello guys =D

I would like to have some advices on building a TWF tactic fighter, while, if possible, can also handle locks or even traps, so a build that splashing rogue would be welcomed.=]

I can only access 28 pts build, the standard f2p classes and i would like him to be a human. Is it even possible? if not, a tactic fighter and nth more would be okay. =D

Thank you in advance.

[wax_on_wax_off]

hello guys =D

I would like to have some advices on building a TWF tactic fighter, while, if possible, can also handle locks or even traps, so a build that splashing rogue would be welcomed.=]

I can only access 28 pts build, the standard f2p classes and i would like him to be a human. Is it even possible? if not, a tactic fighter and nth more would be okay. =D

Thank you in advance.

Concept/Goals: As above
Class: 12 Fighter / 7 Rogue / 1 Barbarian
Alignment: Neutral
Multiclass progression: 1st level as rogue (for skill points) then roughtly: BFFRFFFFRFFRFFFFRRR

Stats and Race (28pt build): Human
Str: 39 (16 base +3 fighter +1 human +5 levels +6 item +8 power surge)
Dex: 23 (15 base +2 tome +6 item)
Con: 20 (14 base +6 item)
Int: 14 (12 base +1 tome)
Wis: 14 (8 base +6 item)
Cha: 14 (8 base +6 item)
Tomes: You need a +2 dexterity tome (for ITWF) and a +1 intelligence tome (for combat expertise). Only way to do this build without them on 28 points is to reduce strength which is a bad idea. +2 int tome would really help skills (mainly to get points into move silently).
Ability increase every 4 levels: All in strength.

Skills: Disable Device (23), Search (23), UMD (23), Spot (23), Open Lock (10), Balance (9), Tumble (1), Jump (3), Move Silently (4), Hide (4), one other skill (4)

Feats (by level): Stunning Blow (1), Toughness (1), Two Weapon Fighting (3), Improved Trip (6), Improved Critical: Slashing (9), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (12), Improved Sunder (15), Hamstring (18)
Feats (fighter): Weapon Focus: Slashing (1), Combat Expertise (2), Weapon Specialisation: Slashing (4), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (6), Power Attack (8), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh (10), Greater Weapon Specialisation: Slashing (12)

Would have liked to take Sap but can't fit it in that I can see. Not 100% on the feat order.

Enhancements (Fighter): Haste Boost IV, Extra Action Boost I, Kensei II, Specified Weapon: Khopesh, Toughness II,
Enhancements (Rogue): Damage Boost III, Mechanic I, Sneak attack training III
Enhancements (Barbarian): Sprint Boost I
Enhancements (Human): Toughness II, Adaptability: Strength, Versatility III (or IV), Improved Recovery II

Mechanic I gives a good ranged option for when it's required and a helpful boost to traps skills. Sprint boost from Barbarian is always awesome. Not going to do a full enhancement count out unless it's really needed, easy enough to just try out different combinations to find out what works every 3 days.

Equipment:
Try to grab search/disable/spot/open lock as often as you can to keep up with the curve. Carry heroism and foxes potions at low levels to avoid blowing traps. Fight with a falchion or other two handed weapon until you get improved two weapon fighting at level 9. Fight with scimitar/kukri until you get khopesh proficiency and then still keep a kukri or other light weapon around for high AC enemies to put in the offhand. Grab +tactics DC weapons to put in the offhand to try different things out. If you hit level 20 and want help with epic gear come back to me then

Variants:
1 monk is possibly better than 1 barbarian for an extra feat.

Details:
Well I managed to squeeze everything that you wanted in here I think

Edit: shuffled things around to get improved trip much earlier (useful against caster mobs) and include hamstring as well.

[Ianis]

Concept/Goals: As above
Class: 12 Fighter / 7 Rogue / 1 Barbarian
Alignment: Neutral
Multiclass progression: 1st level as rogue (for skill points) then roughtly: BFFRFFFFRFFRFFFFRRR

Stats and Race (28pt build): Human
Str: 39 (16 base +3 fighter +1 human +5 levels +6 item +8 power surge)
Dex: 23 (15 base +2 tome +6 item)
Con: 20 (14 base +6 item)
Int: 14 (12 base +1 tome)
Wis: 14 (8 base +6 item)
Cha: 14 (8 base +6 item)
Tomes: You need a +2 dexterity tome (for ITWF) and a +1 intelligence tome (for combat expertise). Only way to do this build without them on 28 points is to reduce strength which is a bad idea. +2 int tome would really help skills (mainly to get points into move silently).
Ability increase every 4 levels: All in strength.

Skills: Disable Device (23), Search (23), UMD (23), Spot (23), Open Lock (10), Balance (9), Tumble (1), Jump (3), Move Silently (4), Hide (4), one other skill (4)

Feats (by level): Stunning Blow (1), Improved Sunder (1), Toughness (3), Two Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: Slashing (9), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (12), Combat Expertise (15), Improved Trip (18)
Feats (fighter): Power Attack (1), Weapon Focus: Slashing (2), Weapon Specialisation: Slashing (4), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (6), Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing (8), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh (10), Greater Weapon Specialisation: Slashing (12)

Would have liked to take Hamstring and Sap as extra tactical feats but can't fit them in that I can see. Not 100% on the feat order, could certainly try to get Improved Trip sooner (perhaps in favour of power attack and improved sunder).

Enhancements (Fighter): Haste Boost IV, Extra Action Boost I, Kensei II, Specified Weapon: Khopesh, Toughness II,
Enhancements (Rogue): Damage Boost III, Mechanic I, Sneak attack training III
Enhancements (Barbarian): Sprint Boost I
Enhancements (Human): Toughness II, Adaptability: Strength, Versatility III (or IV), Improved Recovery II

Mechanic I gives a good ranged option for when it's required and a helpful boost to traps skills. Sprint boost from Barbarian is always awesome. Not going to do a full enhancement count out unless it's really needed, easy enough to just try out different combinations to find out what works every 3 days.

Equipment:
Try to grab search/disable/spot/open lock as often as you can to keep up with the curve. Carry heroism and foxes potions at low levels to avoid blowing traps. Fight with a falchion or other two handed weapon until you get improved two weapon fighting at level 9. Fight with scimitar/kukri until you get khopesh proficiency and then still keep a kukri or other light weapon around for high AC enemies to put in the offhand. Grab +tactics DC weapons to put in the offhand to try different things out. If you hit level 20 and want help with epic gear come back to me then

Variants:
1 monk is possibly better than 1 barbarian for an extra feat.

Details:
Well I managed to squeeze everything that you wanted in here I think

Thank you very much for your build advice =D. Can't wait to try that out.

One more questiont though, is it the 1 barb necessary, cause if possible, I would like to stick to fighter/rogue only =P

Edit:Um..one big problem, i have to get combat expertise before getting improved sunder and trip, and combat expertise needs int 13...how can i fix these ?

[mojobie]

Pre-requisites of Improved Sunder are Sunder (automatically granted) and Power Attack, not Combat Expertise.

Pre-requisitie of Improved Trip is Combat Expertise. WoWo's build has you taking CE at 15 and IT at 18. If you want to take IT earlier than 18, you'll have to take CE earlier as well.

Tomes count toward feat stat pre-requisites, so if you start at 12 INT as per the build, you'll need to acquire a +1 or higher INT tome before you level to 15 (or before whenever you want to take CE, remember +1 Tomes have an ML3 to use). +1's run about 30k plat on Khyber last time I looked, so they're fairly affordable. If you're in a decent guild you could probably ask if anyone has one you could have.

The Barb level gives you +1 BAB, +10% movement speed, 12 HP, a mini-rage (roughly 30s of +4 STR/CON, +2 Will Save, -2 AC), and a few enhancements (notably Barb Power Attack 1). 13 Fighter gives you +1 BAB and 10 HP, but no worthwhile enhancements. 8 Rogue would give you +1 BAB, 6 HP, and access to Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery 3.

If you really want to remain Fighter / Rogue, I'd probably recommend 12 F / 8 R. However, I'd say that a 12/7/1 would be a slightly superior build.

[Ianis]

Pre-requisites of Improved Sunder are Sunder (automatically granted) and Power Attack, not Combat Expertise.

Pre-requisitie of Improved Trip is Combat Expertise. WoWo's build has you taking CE at 15 and IT at 18. If you want to take IT earlier than 18, you'll have to take CE earlier as well.

Tomes count toward feat stat pre-requisites, so if you start at 12 INT as per the build, you'll need to acquire a +1 or higher INT tome before you level to 15 (or before whenever you want to take CE, remember +1 Tomes have an ML3 to use). +1's run about 30k plat on Khyber last time I looked, so they're fairly affordable. If you're in a decent guild you could probably ask if anyone has one you could have.

The Barb level gives you +1 BAB, +10% movement speed, 12 HP, a mini-rage (roughly 30s of +4 STR/CON, +2 Will Save, -2 AC), and a few enhancements (notably Barb Power Attack 1). 13 Fighter gives you +1 BAB and 10 HP, but no worthwhile enhancements. 8 Rogue would give you +1 BAB, 6 HP, and access to Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery 3.

If you really want to remain Fighter / Rogue, I'd probably recommend 12 F / 8 R. However, I'd say that a 12/7/1 would be a slightly superior build.

Thank you mojobie =]. 1 barb seems good i'll follow the plan and start raising him =D

[unbongwah]

GWF:S is not a pre-req for anything on this build and can be dropped, allowing you to add Sap or Hamstring.

Here's a THF dwarf version of this idea I did which gives you some idea how to stagger out your lvl-ups, skill pts, etc.

[ShadowFlash]

Excellent Builds, by both WoWo and unbongwah... +1 to both

There are benefits to both versions. Human has very nice enhancements, namely Healing Amp and Human Versatility PLUS an extra feat.

As unbongwah pointed out, you do have 1 extra feat to play with. (2 if you go dwarf and Dwarven War Axe)

Dwarf offers an expensive enhancement line that boosts ALL your combat DC's at once, which stacks with the individual ones of that Fighter has. This can be important on a 28-point build if you want to reach no-fail DC's easily. Dwarves typically offer more HP than human also...something to consider.

Tomes...on Orien, a +1 INT can be had for as low as 12k pretty easily if you're a smart shopper. You know you'll need it...keep your eye out for deals. A +2 DEX tome on the other hand (which I just had to buy) goes for about 100k minimum, so save your pennies...auction house anything and everything you can...and hopefully your guild can help you out with a deal I wouldn't adjust stats for it, I'm just warning you to plan ahead!

A friendly Crafter (if you are not) will trade you essences and basically craft for free a +1 Holy (weapon) of Vertigo +4 and a +1 Impact, flametouched iron, (weapon) of stunning +6. You can start with the stunning off-hand at level 7 IIRC, and add the impact shard at level 9. I started with a plain +1 holy courtesy of the AH, and crafted the vertigo one complete at 9. The important distinction, is using un-bound shards, neither of these require greater than the standard +5 craftable base weapon...although finding a base flametouched iron (to bypass good DR) was a challenge. If you are in a lvl45 guild or larger, try to find at least one blank with a medium guild slot to use a +3 to-hit accuracy crystal. Doing this, means you can effectively wield a stunning warhammer off-hand starting at level 6 (which is much earlier than usual) and offset the penalty quite nicely. Be Advised, blanks in your weapon of choice with medium or large guild slots (especially being picky) can sell for very large sums (50-75k easy). Koepesh is by far the rarest and most expensive, but also worthwhile. Going Dwarf and using D.axes can save you some coin, and still be effective DPS.

sry for the wall of text...but I'm currently leveling a tactics build of an entirely different flavor, and this is what I've experienced so far. My build is here...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...29#post4343429
But it is not what you're looking for...just adding it for reference, as I tend to post leveling tips along my journey, and some you may find useful.

ShadowFlash

[Ianis]

TONS of thanks for the advices =DDD.

Ill constantly review the advices u guys gave me throughout my leveling.

Btw, would it do any harm if i take TWF at lv3 instead of lv6? would I screw up things? Cause I'd like to dual-wield earlier if possible and viable.

[ShadowFlash]

Really there is no need. Your Attack bonus is to low to do so effectively, and a good strating point for a cannith crafted off-hand guild-slotted stunner is ML:7. Even crafting mine at 7 felt like a "flavor" waste, as mobs died faster than I could stun em. I swung a Flaming Greataxe of Rightousness I looted in korthos almost all the way up to my crafted sets. Somewhere between 7-9 is when I found an actual real usefullness to employing tactics. I started TWFing earlier than typically recommended for the sole purpose of having both tactics suffix's at once. I suspect it's a "flavor" choice to do so, and things would of just died easier if I swung a greataxe the whole time...but it was fun, and that's what counts

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

Good advice here from everyone.
Some points:

• TWF'ing style is generally not advisable until you have ITWF, swinging a greataxe until then will have faster results.
• Impact is not worthwhile, grab holy or screaming
• It's great to hear that there is a spare feat, I'll jig the feat order around to reflect that
• Dwarf version wouldn't have extra feats afaik (-1 human feat, +1 from not needing khopesh prof)

I'll update my post to take IT earlier and IS later.

[ShadowFlash]

Good advice here from everyone.
Some points:

• TWF'ing style is generally not advisable until you have ITWF, swinging a greataxe until then will have faster results.
• Impact is not worthwhile, grab holy or screaming
• It's great to hear that there is a spare feat, I'll jig the feat order around to reflect that
• Dwarf version wouldn't have extra feats afaik (-1 human feat, +1 from not needing khopesh prof)

I'll update my post to take IT earlier and IS later.

GWF:S is the extra feat...going dwarf vs human offsets the koepesh prof resulting in a net +1. Once you're build is tweaked to reflect the spare feat..it's a zero net gain.

Like I said before, I grabbed the "impact" pre-fix to maintain my +6 stunning, and for the easy upgrade. Crafting Holy would have resulted in a mandatory disjunct to go to holy with +4 stunning instead, which given the cost of the base item with medium slot, the +2 DEX tome, and the 2nd D.axe medium guild slot weapon (250k spent) I simply could not afford it....making the "impact" upgrade the most cost effective one I know of for a non-crafter. I valued the no-fail stun at ML:7 higher than the additional DPS of Holy & +4 stunning at ML:9. I have noticed through this addition an increase in the actual off-hand proc of native stunning of the warhammer and a very nice increase in "killing power"...wether or not this is due to ITWF taken at 9 (more than likely) or the "impact" shard (perhaps a combination of both) is open to interpretation. I'm simply posting what worked best for me. These are temporary leveling weapons I hope to last a little while, and the upgrade cycle to save needlessly wasted platinum is important to me.

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

GWF:S is the extra feat...going dwarf vs human offsets the koepesh prof resulting in a net +1. Once you're build is tweaked to reflect the spare feat..it's a zero net gain.

Like I said before, I grabbed the "impact" pre-fix to maintain my +6 stunning, and for the easy upgrade. Crafting Holy would have resulted in a mandatory disjunct to go to holy with +4 stunning instead, which given the cost of the base item with medium slot, the +2 DEX tome, and the 2nd D.axe medium guild slot weapon (250k spent) I simply could not afford it....making the "impact" upgrade the most cost effective one I know of for a non-crafter. I valued the no-fail stun at ML:7 higher than the additional DPS of Holy & +4 stunning at ML:9. I have noticed through this addition an increase in the actual off-hand proc of native stunning of the warhammer and a very nice increase in "killing power"...wether or not this is due to ITWF taken at 9 (more than likely) or the "impact" shard (perhaps a combination of both) is open to interpretation. I'm simply posting what worked best for me. These are temporary leveling weapons I hope to last a little while, and the upgrade cycle to save needlessly wasted platinum is important to me.

ShadowFlash

If not holy then screaming is the other very nice leveling prefix (which is +1).

Either way this discourse will be valuable to the OP. Not sure how impact would impact the killing power of the weapon in any noticeable way unless I'm missing something obvious, impact makes the weapon keen which provides +1 weapon instance damage every 20 hits (if a mace or light hammer) or +2 weapon instance damage if a warhammer (which brings with it -2 AB so isn't worthwhile in the offhand - mainhand is ok though before IC:S). That +1 or +2 weapon damage every 20 hits is going to be much less than the solid +3.5*19/20 damage against every low level foe that I know of from screaming. Impact is only going to get better at quite high levels when strength and other adds start to add up (perhaps power surge at fighter 12 might tip the balance).

Perhaps something for the OP to consider is (Improved) Cursespewing. Not sure what the + is on this but it could make a very nice combo weapon with stunning on the prefix sooner or later. If cursespewing is applied before the stun check then cursespewing would be much more valuable at least at the lower levels.

Edit: Just looked and cursespewing is +3 (so ML:5 with nothing else) and improved cursespewing is +5 (so ML:9 with nothing else). The order of operations would be interesting here and might work better as a mainhand weapon anyway.

[ShadowFlash]

Like I said, I'm not a crafter, and Screaming would more than likely make a better Pre-fix upgrade. I mentioned using the warhammer off-hand only if you can slot it with a medium or large guild crystal of accuracy to offset the AB loss. I've had zero AB issues on my fighter with power attack on going this route.

Including Criticals & miss on a 1....
Light Hammer 1d4+1 20x2 = 3.5 average/hit
Light Mace 1d6+1 20x2 = 4.5 average/hit
Warhammer 1d8+1 20x3 = 5.775 average/hit


Strength by Level 9 = 32 (16 base + 2 level-up + 2 enhncement minimum +4 item +2 ship + 4 barbarian rage + 2 rage pot)
Offhand x0.5 STR bonus = 5.5

Damage Mod = 6.5 ( 5.5str + 1 Divine Favor clickie + ? )
With Power Atack On (+6 with enhancement) = 12.5

Impact Warhammer of Stunning +6 = 1d8+1+12.5 19-20/x3 = 20.7
Screaming Warhammer of Stunning +6 = 1d8+1+12.5 20x3 = 18.9 + (1d6 sonic x 19)/20 = 22.225

Absolutely correct....somehow I missed that as a prefix that wouldn't raise the potential above +5 or the ML above 9....I stand corrected Screaming does provide more consistent DPS. I'm not unhappy with Impact at all, and the "killing power" refers to the age-old carnifex argument where burst DPS can be more important than the math at lower levels. In other words, does the extra critical chance result in a "killing-blow" where it would have taken longer at a more consistent higher DPS? Who knows...who really cares Either seems to be an acceptable choice as the difference is minor in over-all output.

Wish I had a spare bloodstone to throw on now, as THAT would definately skew the math

ShadowFlash

Edit: Arggg...by this point, your build could have HVIII for +20% damage
Adjusted..
20.7 * 1.2 = 24.84
18.9 * 1.2 = 22.68 + 3.325 (sonic) = 26.005
With the Screamer still with a +1.165 lead

[GallantKnight]

I do my own crafting and typically start off with the "bleeding" suffix because it is 1d8 and ML1...most bang for the buck. Then I add the "screaming" prefix, which adds 1d6 and makes the weapon ML3. At level 5 you can add a +1, but I usually wait until level 7 and make it a +2. It still does decent at level 9, but remaking it to an icy/flaming burst of bleed is more useful at that level.