I'm very sorry.......

[Forzah]

Forzah, My main characters are Azraeil, Hellinna, Icefyre, Overweight, Liteweight, Manabozho. I would be quite happy if you were to add those characters to your "list" as I expect everyone I run with to be largely self sufficient.

We support each other in our endeavors but we certainly can each take care of ourselves. Each individual is responsible for keeping them self alive. If you take away that fundamental responsibility, then the bbn can zerg ahead, aggro more than he, and the rest of the group can handle and then blame the divines for the deaths. Divines bring so much to the table if they are not typecast into the heal-nanny-bot role.

That doesn't mean I don't build for self-sufficiency; quite the contrary. Even on my barb I use heal scrolls on fellow players when there is a need for it, and I sure as hell keep myself alive. But I also expect a cleric or fvs to heal me in dire situations, just like I would heal others on my cleric when they need it.

[Impaqt]

That doesn't mean I don't build for self-sufficiency; quite the contrary. Even on my barb I use heal scrolls on fellow players when there is a need for it, and I sure as hell keep myself alive. But I also expect a cleric or fvs to heal me in dire situations, just like I would heal others on my cleric when they need it.

aside from raids where you have a Dedicated "Tank" and a healer assigned to that "Tank", the number one person responsible for your wellbeing is YOU.

This is not what you said in your previous post, but seems to be what you are saying now.....

If you are running into "Dire situations" often, THere may be other things at play.

[Forzah]

aside from raids where you have a Dedicated "Tank" and a healer assigned to that "Tank", the number one person responsible for your wellbeing is YOU.

This is not what you said in your previous post, but seems to be what you are saying now.....

It's not a contradiction. I don't think it should be necessary for everyone to be self-sufficient and to be completely responsible for themselves. I prefer my own characters to be independent, but I certainly don't demand that others are self-sufficient. Guess this is yet another variant of the socialism vs capitalism discussion .

[Grimlock]

It's not a contradiction. I don't think it should be necessary for everyone to be self-sufficient and to be completely responsible for themselves. I prefer my own characters to be independent, but I certainly don't demand that others are self-sufficient. Guess this is yet another variant of the socialism vs capitalism discussion .

Was the LFM not clear enough by stating BYOH? Should he have spelled out "Bring your own heals" in the event the player did not know the acronym?

[Forzah]

Was the LFM not clear enough by stating BYOH? Should he have spelled out "Bring your own heals" in the event the player did not know the acronym?

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the LFM. However, ethically there's something wrong. It's like a docter that refuses to cure a patient's disease.

[Chai]

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the LFM. However, ethically there's something wrong. It's like a docter that refuses to cure a patient's disease.

This.

[Grimlock]

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the LFM. However, ethically there's something wrong. It's like a docter that refuses to cure a patient's disease.

Where exactly did Impaqt state he refused to heal/help the person out? He specifically mentioned the person was brought back to life, and even healed by other party members - aside from the cleric. He was not left behind. He was invited to continue on with the next quest even after he dropped party.

[Enoach]

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the LFM. However, ethically there's something wrong. It's like a docter that refuses to cure a patient's disease.

This.

The problem with the attitude being expressed here is that the two Clerics in the OP did heal the party and raise the party and from what I know of Impact from my years on the board (never crossed paths on server) probably gave out buffs (limited as they might be)

I agree ANY character that can assist an other and just stands there like the little boy on SIMPSONS going "AH HA" while pointing should be drawn and quartered.

Everyone is always quick to blame a divine like FvS or Cleric or even a Bard (healing spec'd) for the results of their choices. Ultimately the responsibility lies with each individual for their survival. Part of that may entail a style that keeps one closer to the primary healer, others have opted for less fetters giving them the ability to reach out further. However, if you watch these types of players you will find they will mostly get in as deep as they can handle.

The problem I have is when Others have placed their entire responsibility on ME and then get in over their own heads and then turn to blame ME because of their short comings.

Everyone does not need to be able to heal them self through massive damage - If that was required everyone would be a Cleric/FvS or WF Wiz/Sorc or PM. Everyone still needs to realize that there is only so much they can handle and the role of the Primary Party healer is to allow them to do it longer, not to allow them to take on more.

[Purgatory]

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the LFM. However, ethically there's something wrong. It's like a docter that refuses to cure a patient's disease.

Originally? LMAO I think not!

BYOH came from loot runners before quests where farmed for xp they where farmed for loot. It was to encourage people to log into toons that are self sufficent to maxamize time and speed. there was a time when a few people pionered the offensive casting cleric that relized a cleric at times could be the most powerful toon to use and could clear out quests in record time compared to the WF sorc and there SP was best utlized in clearing out the quests then to sit and heal mana spunges that took the same time to kill 1 mob as it took the cleric to kill the whole instance at a fraction of the cost.

It was much more efficent for the cleric to gather all the agro and heal themselfs then it was to heal individualy members by select each one that are spread out attacking there seperate mob one at a time vs having any mob selcted at any time and just hiting the heal spell and it would automaticaly heal themselfs. Few players didnt understand this concept because they thought clerics should only heal would insist on takeing agro away from the cleric even tho it would take 2 -3 times longer to kill and cost 3-4 times more sp where then being asked to just BYOH so the cleric could do what they where designed to do for the loot run, that was to kill them all!


so originaly? I think you dont understand the meaning of originaly

[Forzah]

Where exactly did Impaqt state he refused to heal/help the person out? He specifically mentioned the person was brought back to life, and even healed by other party members - aside from the cleric. He was not left behind. He was invited to continue on with the next quest even after he dropped party.

As before: talking in general here, not about this specific case. Guess I should make a remark about that the next time I post.

[Forzah]

so originaly? I think you dont understand the meaning of originaly

No, not if you write it like that .

[Grimlock]

As before: talking in general here, not about this specific case. Guess I should make a remark about that the next time I post.

[Cyndrome]

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the LFM. However, ethically there's something wrong. It's like a docter that refuses to cure a patient's disease.

LOL.

Have you ever taken an ethics class?

I think BYOH is pretty clear. Take care of your own healing if you join this group. If that is a problem for your barbarian, TR into a favored soul... or anything for that matter. If I put up a BYOH LFM and a need hjeals LFM fo almost any quest the BYOH LFM will fill faster at least 90% of the time.

[WizardMerrick]

Perhaps the player in question was not particularly good with English acronyms (or even good with English itself) and did not know what "BYOH" stood for?

Bring Your Own Hairdye, obviously.

Everyone knows Impaqt is all about the makeover parties. If he didn't love playing with so many different character looks, he wouldn't have so many build posts!

[Clay]

Theres a difference between type casting divines into the healbot role (which is playing 50% of their class) and people blatently not healing at all (also playing 50% of their class). [blah blah blah] I will soon posess the latest viral nerd rage video along the lines of 50DKP minus.

Let me ask you this: are you really so arrogant as to actually believe that only you know how the game should be played? That there is only one way to play and enjoy the game?

Since I disagree with your assessment on how a class should be played, and especially disagree with your self appointed role as arbiter on how DDO should be played, please feel free to add my toons to your list as well.

[KingOfCheese]

Let me ask you this: are you really so arrogant as to actually believe that only you know how the game should be played? That there is only one way to play and enjoy the game?

Since I disagree with your assessment on how a class should be played, and especially disagree with your self appointed role as arbiter on how DDO should be played, please feel free to add my toons to your list as well.

I am actually the official arbiter of how DDO should be played. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

On this particular issue:

1) it is fair for a divine to go full offense and neglect healing;

2) it is a nice courtesy, but not obligation to instruct others in the group of a divine's intent not to focus on healing (which might mean no healing at all);

3) in a BYOH run, it is fair for someone joining to think that a divine in the group might heal--but they should not count on it and should assess quickly on their own which category of run it might be;

4) the party leader should expect that a certain non-trivial percentage of the population won't comply with LFM requirements (based on any number of reasons that people are legitimately or illegitimately fallible) and when this happens should try to courteously do one or more of the following: a) educate the person; or b) remove the person from the group;

5) a person that inappropriately joins a BYOH run that cannot comply with the requirements should be courteous in departing the group or otherwise minimizing their negative impact in the run.

[Chai]

Let me ask you this: are you really so arrogant as to actually believe that only you know how the game should be played? That there is only one way to play and enjoy the game?

Since I disagree with your assessment on how a class should be played, and especially disagree with your self appointed role as arbiter on how DDO should be played, please feel free to add my toons to your list as well.

That happened in 2008 bud, back when 2 specific guilds thought they owned the server. We saw how that turned out, when it was shown to them that DDO is not a gear check game and that guilds who think they are somehow higher up on the totem pole really arent. Once the rest of the server was excluded from their groups, they ate eachother, like usual, because there was no one else left to criticize. VH1 should run a "where are they now" special on some of those cats.

[Phidius]

Originally the term BYOH was meant for groups that did not have a divine caster yet, but wanted to get started anyway. In that case you really needed to save your own butt. Now it seems more of an excuse for divines not to heal. I would never start a BYOH group on a divine: it just feels plain wrong to me.
...

Sorry, your experience is not universal. I started using BYOH because my 14 Sorc/2 Pal got tired of wand/scroll whipping those who wouldn't carry pots.

What you are implying is that BYOH means "Bring Your Own Heals Until We Get A Healer"... I recommend you just use BYOHUWGAH and save us all a lot of misunderstanding. Otherwise, people like me will join your BYOH groups and just laugh at you when you die because you stopped taking care of yourself.

But don't fret - I've got a stack of Raise Dead scrolls that I carry for just such occasions.

[Grimlock]

That happened in 2008 bud, back when 2 specific guilds thought they owned the server. We saw how that turned out, when it was shown to them that DDO is not a gear check game and that guilds who think they are somehow higher up on the totem pole really arent. Once the rest of the server was excluded from their groups, they ate eachother, like usual, because there was no one else left to criticize. VH1 should run a "where are they now" special on some of those cats.

Did you happen to apply to one or both of these guilds you "claim" ran the Thelanis server? Did they both turn you down Chai? Is that why you are butthurt?

And what if we ran a VH1 special on Chai? Please enlighten us on the awesomeness of someone living in Wisconsin whose interests include martial arts.

I want to be as awesome as you are when I grow up. Please. Let me be your student.

[Impaqt]

That happened in 2008 bud, back when 2 specific guilds thought they owned the server. We saw how that turned out, when it was shown to them that DDO is not a gear check game and that guilds who think they are somehow higher up on the totem pole really arent. Once the rest of the server was excluded from their groups, they ate eachother, like usual, because there was no one else left to criticize. VH1 should run a "where are they now" special on some of those cats.

what 2 guilds were those? I do not recall such an event.