I'm very sorry.......

[mobrien316]

I often put BYOH on my cleric's LFM's. My intention is to hopefully get people who can heal themselves to at least some degree, rather than getting the players who don't carry pots or wands because they think a healer should do ALL the healing.


However, I still heal people all the time. Why wouldn't I? If they are having trouble and I can keep them up, it is in my best interests to do so.


If my LFM reads "BYOH" and someone joins and starts yelling at me when they drop from 250 to 230 HP, I tell them it's BYOH and they should drink a pot. If they calmly and politely ask for a heal when they are dropping below 50% or 25% health, I will always heal them.

[Chai]

2 divines refusing to heal simply because the LFM supposedly gives them license to do so is hilarious. Might as well put up an LFM that says you can only play 50% of your class if you want to join. Ill take someone who plays 100% of their class over someone who only plays 50% of their class into my next LFM after an experience like this any day of the week. I have the same view of divines who ONLY heal and do nothing else. They are also playing 50% of their class.

When 90% of the server cant play as a team in epics and raids and we act surprised, ima pull your collective cards on that one too. They dont play as a team through grinding levels 1-20, so what makes us think they will turn that corner in the learning curve all of a sudden when they end up in a raid PUG? They will put up the same elitist front they were subjected to when grinding to cap, and tell you that you should have had that self sufficiency covered before you joined.

The teamwork switch isnt something that you can just expect people to turn on and off at will. You have to set that expectation early, or you reap what you sew later on when those same divines are playing 50% of their class in tight situations where they need to be playing at 100% peak efficiency. As for the arty who didnt have pots? LOL.

[Impaqt]

2 divines refusing to heal simply because the LFM supposedly gives them license to do so is hilarious.

Not as hilarious as people who only read part of a thread and act self righteous. Its not like this is some 40 page thread where the info you ignored was burried....

The Arty got plenty of heals and even some raise deads, off of scrolls. he was absolutely not neglected. My FvS only has one "Healing" spell currently, but the Cleric that joined the group, while obviously newish, had no qualms about throwing healing spells.

The guy had 100 hit points at level 6.... Not terrible... But its an at level Elite quest.... 100 Hit points just doesnt go that far.... he died... and like I previously reiterated..... It was no big deal to anyone..... I threw his a Raise dead and we moved on...

I found it amusing that he was the only one that bent out of shape and rage quit the group.

[Chai]

Not as hilarious as people who only read part of a thread and act self righteous. Its not like this is some 40 page thread where the info you ignored was burried....

The Arty got plenty of heals and even some raise deads, off of scrolls. he was absolutely not neglected. My FvS only has one "Healing" spell currently, but the Cleric that joined the group, while obviously newish, had no qualms about throwing healing spells.

The guy had 100 hit points at level 6.... Not terrible... But its an at level Elite quest.... 100 Hit points just doesnt go that far.... he died... and like I previously reiterated..... It was no big deal to anyone..... I threw his a Raise dead and we moved on...

I found it amusing that he was the only one that bent out of shape and rage quit the group.

The well rehearsed response of accusations of not reading, as usual, followed by more as usual criticism of the other guys build. I grin at this kind of stuff. It just shows that I am absolutely correct on the issue. If I wasnt you wouldnt be so quick to hit the big red griefing button and post said accusations. Of course no one else was bent out of shape and left the group. It supports your story. Its the old quantity based arguement - moar people feel the way you do -vs- feel the way he did so you must be right, right? No. They were too busy playing 50% of their class. If he was the only one bent out of shape, why are you then coming to the boards to rail on the guy? I dont think he was the only one. When people on a particular server spend more time moaning about PUGs on the boards than leading (yes actually leading, not just having the star) them, it certainly indicates something about the quality of PUGs, but its not the thing you are trying to act like it clearly indicates.

You guys' neg rep trolling is only reinforcing the fact that I am correct on this issue. If I was not, you wouldnt be coming back each day to hit me up again, solely for disagreement on the internet.

[Enoach]

Not as hilarious as people who only read part of a thread and act self righteous. Its not like this is some 40 page thread where the info you ignored was burried....

The Arty got plenty of heals and even some raise deads, off of scrolls. he was absolutely not neglected. My FvS only has one "Healing" spell currently, but the Cleric that joined the group, while obviously newish, had no qualms about throwing healing spells.

The guy had 100 hit points at level 6.... Not terrible... But its an at level Elite quest.... 100 Hit points just doesnt go that far.... he died... and like I previously reiterated..... It was no big deal to anyone..... I threw his a Raise dead and we moved on...

I found it amusing that he was the only one that bent out of shape and rage quit the group.

I will admit at first reading just the OP I was more in agreement with Chai, only in BYOH does not absolve anyone from helping other party members out of a jam if they can do so. Reading your second post with additional information (which by the way would have changed many initial opinions) informed me of a couple additional tid-bits.

1) Artificer <- Many healing options the least of which is Drinking a potion (Artificer Enhanced Potion Knowledge)
2) Artificer in the Middle of a Room - Why was the Artificer in the middle of the Room? Personally I like the Sniper position (wall to my back, the whole room in view)
3) Death to one shot traps <- These never require an apology from a class that can heal. There is only one ability in game that can help prevent death and only a level 20 cleric has access to this.
4) Being mad at someone else because you died - even in non-BYOH quests this behavior is seen as childish - ultimately the responsibility lies with the player playing said character.

My only suggestion is to be more forthright with the whole story, not just the vague notion of Vet vs Newb (or Noob as the case warrants)

[Impaqt]

I will admit at first reading just the OP I was more in agreement with Chai, only in BYOH does not absolve anyone from helping other party members out of a jam if they can do so. Reading your second post with additional information (which by the way would have changed many initial opinions) informed me of a couple additional tid-bits.

1) Artificer <- Many healing options the least of which is Drinking a potion (Artificer Enhanced Potion Knowledge)
2) Artificer in the Middle of a Room - Why was the Artificer in the middle of the Room? Personally I like the Sniper position (wall to my back, the whole room in view)
3) Death to one shot traps <- These never require an apology from a class that can heal. There is only one ability in game that can help prevent death and only a level 20 cleric has access to this.
4) Being mad at someone else because you died - even in non-BYOH quests this behavior is seen as childish - ultimately the responsibility lies with the player playing said character.

My only suggestion is to be more forthright with the whole story, not just the vague notion of Vet vs Newb (or Noob as the case warrants)

meh. what is "the whole story" ever? Rarely do we ever really get the whole story... I can post what I experienced.. Can even post screenshots.. Links to myddo... Its still only My side....

I think most people on thelanis know me... I assume most people on the forums know me after 6+ years and nearly 18,000 posts....

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone say I'm some sort of elitist jerk who looks down on "the noobs".

I found his reason for quitting the group humourus.

I'm sorry threads seem to be rampant lately....

I figured I'l poke some fun....

[Xithos]

meh. what is "the whole story" ever? Rarely do we ever really get the whole story... I can post what I experienced.. Can even post screenshots.. Links to myddo... Its still only My side....

I think most people on thelanis know me... I assume most people on the forums know me after 6+ years and nearly 18,000 posts....

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone say I'm some sort of elitist jerk who looks down on "the noobs".

I found his reason for quitting the group humourus.

I'm sorry threads seem to be rampant lately....

I figured I'l poke some fun....

This thread was a pretty good read IMO and you were definitely more courteous to the guy who doesn't take care of himself than I am generally. Within the context of your situation I probably would have not bothered to raise him at all and just threw his soulstone in my backpack while I finished the quest without saying anything and then removing/reforming upon finishing. Chai trolling you was also an entertaining read so keep the pugging stories coming since I won't have much to do at work tonight. I also enjoy tales of success in the face of adversity. For example, I joined a pug Lord of Blades last night on normal difficulty that racked up a death count that was either high 60's or low 70's and still managed to complete. It was a complete trainwreck and felt pretty epic after the 58 minutes of the warforge rampaging.

[Enoach]

meh. what is "the whole story" ever? Rarely do we ever really get the whole story... I can post what I experienced.. Can even post screenshots.. Links to myddo... Its still only My side....

I think most people on thelanis know me... I assume most people on the forums know me after 6+ years and nearly 18,000 posts....

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone say I'm some sort of elitist jerk who looks down on "the noobs".

I found his reason for quitting the group humourus.

I'm sorry threads seem to be rampant lately....

I figured I'l poke some fun....

You are right the "Whole Story" from one person's perspective is still only part of the story. Nothing posted indicates the other party member (really does not matter what class) was incapacitated at the time, nothing from your side of the story indicates that party members were left to die (or even heal themselves 100% of the time).

My point was if the information in the second post was part of the OP it would leave a lot less up to interpretation. I've been around the forums for a long time to know your not the type to sweat deaths in groups or even new players will to learn. That is why my initial response was not to flame you, but to continue to read to find out if more information had come to light.

The biggest problem with forum communication is that it is written and readers don't always have the benefit of knowing the writer personally or even as an acquaintance. With this it leaves a lot of interpretation. In this case you were really poking fun at the apology threads in general, but if this was written by anyone else (Chai and even myself included) it could potentially have taken on a different meaning and potentially hit different buttons on people.

I'm sorry someone didn't enjoy playing with you. I hope that one day they realize that in no way was it personal or meant as an attack on their being. But in reality they won't see it until they group with those that get belligerent about the loss of the 10% BONUS or in groups where the leader says stand there, buff me, don't move, you can leave after I finish the quest and get the chests - don't follow me you'll die. Once they get a couple of those types they will have a better understanding of what is poor play.

[Blackbird]

The well rehearsed response of accusations of not reading, as usual, followed by more as usual criticism of the other guys build. I grin at this kind of stuff. It just shows that I am absolutely correct on the issue. If I wasnt you wouldnt be so quick to hit the big red griefing button and post said accusations. Of course no one else was bent out of shape and left the group. It supports your story. Its the old quantity based arguement - moar people feel the way you do -vs- feel the way he did so you must be right, right? No. They were too busy playing 50% of their class. If he was the only one bent out of shape, why are you then coming to the boards to rail on the guy? I dont think he was the only one. When people on a particular server spend more time moaning about PUGs on the boards than leading (yes actually leading, not just having the star) them, it certainly indicates something about the quality of PUGs, but its not the thing you are trying to act like it clearly indicates.

So...if I understand you correctly, even though the LFM said "BYOH" and the guy was on a self-healing class, it was still the job of the divines in the group to babysit the guy or else they are only playing "50% of their class"? Shouldn't the guy bear some responsibility for his own actions and wasn't he only playing "50% of his own class" by not healing himself? Yet, you make it sound like it's the divines' fault he died repeatedly because they were only playing "50% of their class". To me, that sounds hypocritical (i.e. ok for the arty not to heal himself but not ok for the divines not to babysit him).

[Forzah]

So...if I understand you correctly, even though the LFM said "BYOH" and the guy was on a self-healing class, it was still the job of the divines in the group to babysit the guy or else they are only playing "50% of their class"? Shouldn't the guy bear some responsibility for his own actions and wasn't he only playing "50% of his own class" by not healing himself? Yet, you make it sound like it's the divines' fault he died repeatedly because they were only playing "50% of their class". To me, that sounds hypocritical (i.e. ok for the arty not to heal himself but not ok for the divines not to babysit him).

The main role of a divine is healing, they get the spells and enhancements for it, and are very effective in it. Moreover, divine healing is cheaper and usually quicker than drinking pots. So yea, you should do some healing as divine, especially in emergency situations. Refusing to heal is improductive and selfish. Luckily Impaqt didn't refuse to heal; from the first post I figured he did.

[Blackbird]

The main role of a divine is healing, they get the spells and enhancements for it, and are very effective in it. Moreover, divine healing is cheaper and usually quicker than drinking pots. So yea, you should do some healing as divine, especially in emergency situations. Refusing to heal is improductive and selfish. Luckily Impaqt didn't refuse to heal; from the first post I figured he did.

I'm trying to figure out the point of your response. You say that the main role of a divine is healing (this is debatable) but concede that the divines did heal in this instance. You also seem to conclude that divines are primary healers because they get spells and enhancements for it. So do artificers. They get mass fleshy healing, lots of toaster healing, and extremely nice bonuses to potions, wands, and scrolls. My WF arty can toss a heal scroll WAY better than my FvS and equal, if not better, than my cleric.

My point, which isn't addressed by your response which is why I am confused, is that Chai seems to be blaming the divines in that group for the arty's deaths when he was just as capable of healing himself with items and spells. Chai seems to accuse the divines of "playing 50% of their class" by not babysitting the arty and keeping him alive at all costs without putting any fault on a self healing class that didn't heal himself.

When I'm in a group with a bunch of WF casters, I generally don't heal them either. Sure, if they drop like a rock I'll toss something their way but I'm not following them around tossing heal spells every time they lose a little bit of life (or even half). They should be able to heal themselves. Same with the arty in a BYOh run. Even if it wasn't BYOh he still should be expected to contribute to his own welfare because he is more than capable. This wasn't a barbarian trying to fill up massive amounts of hps 25-30 points at a time using pots, it was an arty.

[PopeJual]

2 divines refusing to heal simply because the LFM supposedly gives them license to do so is hilarious. Might as well put up an LFM that says you can only play 50% of your class if you want to join. Ill take someone who plays 100% of their class over someone who only plays 50% of their class into my next LFM after an experience like this any day of the week. I have the same view of divines who ONLY heal and do nothing else. They are also playing 50% of their class.

When 90% of the server cant play as a team in epics and raids and we act surprised, ima pull your collective cards on that one too. They dont play as a team through grinding levels 1-20, so what makes us think they will turn that corner in the learning curve all of a sudden when they end up in a raid PUG? They will put up the same elitist front they were subjected to when grinding to cap, and tell you that you should have had that self sufficiency covered before you joined.

The teamwork switch isnt something that you can just expect people to turn on and off at will. You have to set that expectation early, or you reap what you sew later on when those same divines are playing 50% of their class in tight situations where they need to be playing at 100% peak efficiency. As for the arty who didnt have pots? LOL.

The well rehearsed response of accusations of not reading, as usual, followed by more as usual criticism of the other guys build. I grin at this kind of stuff. It just shows that I am absolutely correct on the issue. If I wasnt you wouldnt be so quick to hit the big red griefing button and post said accusations. Of course no one else was bent out of shape and left the group. It supports your story. Its the old quantity based arguement - moar people feel the way you do -vs- feel the way he did so you must be right, right? No. They were too busy playing 50% of their class. If he was the only one bent out of shape, why are you then coming to the boards to rail on the guy? I dont think he was the only one. When people on a particular server spend more time moaning about PUGs on the boards than leading (yes actually leading, not just having the star) them, it certainly indicates something about the quality of PUGs, but its not the thing you are trying to act like it clearly indicates.

he seemed to have a strong grasp on the english language.

He was an Artificer........

It was an Elite Partycrashers run. the groups mood was pleasant. I did indeed throw a few heals his way as did the cleric in the group. no one said a word when he died (There were a couple other deaths in the run as well... no one cared) even used raise dead scrolls to get him back up.

we were going to move on to Big top next and he just dropped. I sent him a tell to let him know that he could come with us to Big top as long as someone went in first(He wasnt flagged)

I got back a 'You let me die in the middle of the room, I've had enough' response......

just thought it was bizaar that he was the only one the least bit upset.....

Chai, you continue to entertain.

[Phidius]

Your sorry...? As well as you should be! Your gimped healing just cost the party 10% XP!!! Shame on you sir, SHAME ON YOU!

Nothing like going to the movies with the wife and kids and dropping over $50 for 90 minutes of entertainment to shed some perspective on spending 10% XP for the same amount of fun.

And a stack of raise dead scrolls when you find those wannabe squishy zergers in a BYOH group? Priceless...

Chai, you continue to entertain.

Not all DDO-related entertainment is to be found in the game.

[Forzah]

I'm trying to figure out the point of your response. You say that the main role of a divine is healing (this is debatable) but concede that the divines did heal in this instance. You also seem to conclude that divines are primary healers because they get spells and enhancements for it. So do artificers. They get mass fleshy healing, lots of toaster healing, and extremely nice bonuses to potions, wands, and scrolls. My WF arty can toss a heal scroll WAY better than my FvS and equal, if not better, than my cleric.

My point, which isn't addressed by your response which is why I am confused, is that Chai seems to be blaming the divines in that group for the arty's deaths when he was just as capable of healing himself with items and spells. Chai seems to accuse the divines of "playing 50% of their class" by not babysitting the arty and keeping him alive at all costs without putting any fault on a self healing class that didn't heal himself.

My first three sentences were more general remarks, while the final sentence was specific to the thread. I wasn't referring to artificers here, because of course they should be able to heal themselves to some extent.

I feel that a healer in any case is responsible for keeping the party alive, in particular in danger situations, because they are best suited for doing that. It's similar to expecting rogues to be able to do traps. However, there are of course limits to the amount a healer should help. If someone takes an unreasonable amount of damage, you could decide to stop healing at some point (if it's just too expensive). It's just not as black and white as either "heal everything" or "heal nothing"; it's somewhere in between. Exercise your own judgement, but don't refuse to do healing a priori when you are in a group as a divine.

[PopeJual]

My first three sentences were more general remarks, while the final sentence was specific to the thread. I wasn't referring to artificers here, because of course they should be able to heal themselves to some extent.

I feel that a healer in any case is responsible for keeping the party alive, in particular in danger situations, because they are best suited for doing that. It's similar to expecting rogues to be able to do traps. However, there are of course limits to the amount a healer should help. If someone takes an unreasonable amount of damage, you could decide to stop healing at some point (if it's just too expensive). It's just not as black and white as either "heal everything" or "heal nothing"; it's somewhere in between. Exercise your own judgement, but don't refuse to do healing when you are in a group as a divine.

I feel that people who are capable of significant healing should heal others when they can and when those others are worth healing, HOWEVER...

It is up to that "healer" to decide what the best course of action is to advance the quest and the actual *responsibility* for making sure that individual players stay alive in regular quests rests with those individual players. A Cleric or FvS or Bard or any other class with significant healing abilities needs to decide when and how to heal themselves and other party members just like every party member needs to decide how to manage their own blue bar and to decide which enemies should be attacked and in what order (hint: kill the casters first).

Sometimes, the best answer is to keep everyone in the party alive. Sometimes the best answer is to run like hell and just grab soulstones (if possible) and only worry about keeping yourself alive. Sometimes, the answer is to toss a few heals to someone when you can and just raise them occasionally when they die in spite of your help. Sometimes, the answer is to just stop throwing raises at them entirely because they can't stay alive for more than 7 seconds even with outside help.

But it's up to the "healer" to decide how they are going to contribute to the party's success just like every other player. Sometimes they make the right choices. Sometimes they make the wrong ones. But every player had better be prepared to take care of themselves to at least some extent because sometimes the "healer" isn't going to be able to or possibly even willing to manage your red bar for you. If you want to stay alive, then you need to be the one to make sure that happens.


(This is obviously different in raids where it's simply not possible for most characters to heal through the incoming damage.)

[Clay]

Forzah, My main characters are Azraeil, Hellinna, Icefyre, Overweight, Liteweight, Manabozho. I would be quite happy if you were to add those characters to your "list" as I expect everyone I run with to be largely self sufficient.

We support each other in our endeavors but we certainly can each take care of ourselves. Each individual is responsible for keeping them self alive. If you take away that fundamental responsibility, then the bbn can zerg ahead, aggro more than he, and the rest of the group can handle and then blame the divines for the deaths. Divines bring so much to the table if they are not typecast into the heal-nanny-bot role.

[gorloch]

Nice Alendale. In your defense you've helped keep my poorly built toons up so I know you gave the guy a fighting chance to try to stay alive.


PIXA

[Chai]

Forzah, My main characters are Azraeil, Hellinna, Icefyre, Overweight, Liteweight, Manabozho. I would be quite happy if you were to add those characters to your "list" as I expect everyone I run with to be largely self sufficient.

We support each other in our endeavors but we certainly can each take care of ourselves. Each individual is responsible for keeping them self alive. If you take away that fundamental responsibility, then the bbn can zerg ahead, aggro more than he, and the rest of the group can handle and then blame the divines for the deaths. Divines bring so much to the table if they are not typecast into the heal-nanny-bot role.

Theres a difference between type casting divines into the healbot role (which is playing 50% of their class) and people blatently not healing at all (also playing 50% of their class). In the plethora of "battlecleric hate" threads, Im usually the guy talking about how the divines job isnt to just stand there and play wack-a-mole with red bars while everyone else actually plays the full game.

However...

The PUG scene on Thelanis is different in a way from the other servers I play on, and not in a positive way. People are alot more critical of others builds and playstyles, which is literally what contributes to the very typecasting you are against. That kind of mentality perpetuates the same myths we see on the forums regarding builds. I often find that when running raids, its the people who talk the most about how others should be playing who know the least. They are also the people who cannot, no WILL not think outside their little box of what they find acceptable. When the new content is released, many of those same people are the ones starting the threads complaining about how its too tough, because they WILL not think outside their little box of acceptable builds and strategies.

This all makes the Thelanis (old Xoriat) PUG scene hilarious, especially when one self proclaimed elite person or group is running with another self proclaimed elite person or group. The end up eating eachother eventually when theres no one else to criticize. I dont even participate, I just stand on the sideline watching them shout eachother down with the furious passion only MMO gamers can muster, while trying to get Fraps loaded as quickly as possible in hopes that I will soon posess the latest viral nerd rage video along the lines of 50DKP minus.

[Chai]

Not all DDO-related entertainment is to be found in the game.

For some, the forums ARE the game.

In fact, there are people who havent logged on in over a year who still post regularly, and have a boatload of archived toons that are still collecting dust.

[akiraproject24]

The well rehearsed response of accusations of not reading, as usual, followed by more as usual criticism of the other guys build. I grin at this kind of stuff. It just shows that I am absolutely correct on the issue. If I wasnt you wouldnt be so quick to hit the big red griefing button and post said accusations. Of course no one else was bent out of shape and left the group. It supports your story. Its the old quantity based arguement - moar people feel the way you do -vs- feel the way he did so you must be right, right? No. They were too busy playing 50% of their class. If he was the only one bent out of shape, why are you then coming to the boards to rail on the guy? I dont think he was the only one. When people on a particular server spend more time moaning about PUGs on the boards than leading (yes actually leading, not just having the star) them, it certainly indicates something about the quality of PUGs, but its not the thing you are trying to act like it clearly indicates.

I dont think this thread requires a psyco analysis, x player joined an lfm with prior warning , basically did nothing to heed that warning then got angry at the group leader for x players own failure.. a divines job is not to babysit poor play style...they have far more capabilities than watching red bars. Said capabilities are far more fun to utilize then being a battery..when LFM states BYOH it only reinforces that the divines are gonna be busy killing mobs to divert most of their attention to red bars. So pray tell why when someones own poor choices gets them killed, do they point fingers at the divine? When does X player take a little responsibility for themselves...if the divine is busy its not hard to run away and drink a pot its actually very easy...only an idiot would not take action to evade death or buy time till a heal could be sent.