the great race debate

[Quirinus]

I am about to TR my pale master into a sorc, and am wondering about which race to select...
On the one hand:

I like human due to the extra feat, and charisma enhancement
But I like to self-heal so WF is also apealing

To those who have capped a sorc how much do you worry about those 3 points of charisma?

PS I tend to solo about 60% of content (if that matters in this debate)

[axel15810]

WF is the best race for a sorc. And it's not even a debate IMO.

[Memnir]

I went Helf, just because.
But yeah, I'd say that WF is far and away the best Sorc race in the game.

[taurean430]

I am just starting sorc life #3 in my Wizard's tr plans. I went WF and don't regret it for a second. If you are simply grinding out a sorc life via tr, there is no question. I don't use quicken and have yet to have any issue whatsoever self healing under fire.

Just make sure you shore up your evocation dc for your spell spamming madness

[FranOhmsford]

I went Helf, just because.
But yeah, I'd say that WF is far and away the best Sorc race in the game.

It makes no sense to me that the best race for Sorceror - Dragon Blooded, Innate abilities etc. is a Golem!

I'd much prefer if Sorc/FavSoul and Paladin {possibly Monk} were not allowable classes for Warforged.

I'm OK with them making great Wizards - They do after all have all the time in the world to learn magic.
I'd like it better if Elves and Drow could at the very least equal them.

Unfortunately DDO has gone with the All Classes must be available to all Races option - I also don't like the idea of Dwarven Arcane Casters {They get Dwarven Spell Defenses for a reason}. Although at least these aren't the top choice.

As such we have a system where with maybe 3 exceptions {Cleric, Rogue and Ranger} WF are amongst the top 3 Races for every class in the game {#1 in more than any other race - Sorc, Wizard, FavSoul, Artificer and Possibly Monk}.

I actually rather like the suggestion that's cropped up a few times since Artificer became available - Removing Repair spells from Wizards and Sorcs entirely {though maybe just remove Reconstruct}.
Warforged would still be a good choice - They just wouldn't be the #1 choice for both.



BTW - Drow get 4 more Charisma than Warforged - Why is it that a class that's so far behind in a Sorc and FavSoul's Main stat is the optimal choice for both classes?

[danotmano1998]

Why is it that a class that's so far behind in a Sorc and FavSoul's Main stat is the optimal choice for both classes?

Uninterruptable self healing for an arcane.

IMO, it's debatable on the FvS optimal race being WF.

[ZennyoTheWise]

I recommend WF for sorc. One way to look at it...when Harry (or your boss of choice) is swacking you with nastiness...is it easier to scroll/wand/potion heal or cast repair spell?

PS I tend to solo about 60% of content (if that matters in this debate)

Who will be there to carry your stone when your scroll heal casting fails?

[scoobmx]

Uninterruptable self healing for an arcane.

IMO, it's debatable on the FvS optimal race being WF.

Not really.. There's no debate that WF make second rate FvS's. Humans are by far the top FvS choice. I haven't heard any comments about so and so's WF fvs being totally OP. They need a buff.

[LeLoric]

I like my human sorc much better than any wf ones I have played. It's essentially two more feats as quicken is really not needed. Wand and scroll masteried heal scrolls while interruptable I can count on my left hand how many times I have had one get interrupted in the last month. 80ish concentration w/ stoneskin always on and displacement and protection from elements/fire shield means your dmg taken is rarely enough to interrupt one. I've healed myself with scrolls through rain of blades on epic lob before I got my pale lav.

Better dc's, better gear options, more feats, better ap allocation, more sp and less drain on them through healing, all lead up to a really strong reason for me to play a human sorc. Wf may be an easier option but it's in no means a better option it works great for some but it's easy to argue human is just as good or better.

Theres a pretty big reason that people really deidcated to their sorc play humans.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=ayspam

[Enoach]

WF don't make the best sorcerers, they just benefit more from Sorcerer's spell list and faster casting. Combine that with Racial Constitution and you can make a rather hard hitting and hard to kill character.

Sorcerers are not generally DC focused. Thus the reason why the +4 Base Charisma that Drow have is not seen as a large benefit.

Human gain the benefit of an Additional Feat. And for DC focused Sorcerers also have +1 Racial Charisma modifier.

Half-Elf - gain Dilettante which can be used for FvS giving them early access to healing options until UMD score is high enough.

Dwarf Sorcerer's also get Constitution enhancements

Elf and Halfling and Half-Orc do not seem to have any racial bonus that would benefit a Sorcerer.

[good_ole_corwin]

As such we have a system where with maybe 3 exceptions {Cleric, Rogue and Ranger} WF are amongst the top 3 Races for every class in the game {#1 in more than any other race - Sorc, Wizard, FavSoul, Artificer and Possibly Monk}.

Eh, what would possibly make you think they are #1 for FvS? Maybe #3, but certainly not #1, sorry. Wiz is also debatable, even though they are among the competition for it, sure. Monks? Only thing they have going for them are immunities, which are really not that big a deal at endgame, horcs or helves (rogue dilly) are better if youre after DPS monks IMHO, humans or helves if you want a tank/survivalist.

Btw. charisma is not the main stat for FvS either, no matter what the character creator tries to tell you.

Why do I have the feeling the thread just got derailed? Sorry guys

[morticianjohn]

I like my human sorc much better than any wf ones I have played. It's essentially two more feats as quicken is really not needed. Wand and scroll masteried heal scrolls while interruptable I can count on my left hand how many times I have had one get interrupted in the last month. 80ish concentration w/ stoneskin always on and displacement and protection from elements/fire shield means your dmg taken is rarely enough to interrupt one. I've healed myself with scrolls through rain of blades on epic lob before I got my pale lav.

Better dc's, better gear options, more feats, better ap allocation, more sp and less drain on them through healing, all lead up to a really strong reason for me to play a human sorc. Wf may be an easier option but it's in no means a better option it works great for some but it's easy to argue human is just as good or better.

Theres a pretty big reason that people really deidcated to their sorc play humans.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=ayspam

One of the best players I know currently plays a human sorcerer. He said the other day that WF is probably the better choice.

Another player who I don't know but who was in a top flight guild was doing epic Into the Deep with me and was having trouble adjusting to playing a human. He said that when he gets used to the human playstyle he will probably still prefer WF.

I don't know your playstyle but I also don't see how you have better gear options considering that 1.) you have a scroll in your hand 2.) maybe a UMD item depending on your capabilities and 3.) you have to slot a concentration item.

I don't see how you have a "better" allocation for AP unless you're talking about human adaptability CHA and basically you're trading +1 DC (depends on build/gear) for some other damage enhancement option a WF would take. At most it's different rather than strictly "better".

Lastly, I would say that anyone doing their first TR is in a much different situation than those who play good fleshy sorcerers. If you're going to play a good fleshy sorcerer you must meet the UMD requirements for 100% heal scrolls unbuffed. You need to also plan for 65+ concentration unbuffed (preferably with 1 death penalty to ensure that you can recover if something goes wrong and the healer manages to pass a raise). These things seem a little bit out of reach in general for someone who is TRing for the first time.

[LeLoric]

One of the best players I know currently plays a human sorcerer. He said the other day that WF is probably the better choice.

Another player who I don't know but who was in a top flight guild was doing epic Into the Deep with me and was having trouble adjusting to playing a human. He said that when he gets used to the human playstyle he will probably still prefer WF.

I don't know your playstyle but I also don't see how you have better gear options considering that 1.) you have a scroll in your hand 2.) maybe a UMD item depending on your capabilities and 3.) you have to slot a concentration item.

I don't see how you have a "better" allocation for AP unless you're talking about human adaptability CHA and basically you're trading +1 DC (depends on build/gear) for some other damage enhancement option a WF would take. At most it's different rather than strictly "better".

Lastly, I would say that anyone doing their first TR is in a much different situation than those who play good fleshy sorcerers. If you're going to play a good fleshy sorcerer you must meet the UMD requirements for 100% heal scrolls unbuffed. You need to also plan for 65+ concentration unbuffed (preferably with 1 death penalty to ensure that you can recover if something goes wrong and the healer manages to pass a raise). These things seem a little bit out of reach in general for someone who is TRing for the first time.

As to the gear I only have a scroll in my hand when i heal myself its a one key button to swap to scroll use it and swap back (love my razr naga) Concentration comes free on my epic ornamental dagger. I use no specific umd item get my +5 cha skills from a con opp and have plenty of umd. I could also have my heal scroll swap include an epic flameward if I wanted more umd. The reason you have better gear choices is you don't have to wear the crappy docents they have in the game.

As for the ap its tougher on a wf you have to spend for repair stuff as well as the spell failure one its noit a lot but it is easier.

Everything else you said just confirms my point of its not necessarily better to play a wf sorc it's just easier. The only time it was significantly better was when wf tanks were common and healing the tank was also a part of your job.

I've seen fleshy sorcs solo into the deeps so thats really not an issue you were just talking with someone used to a wf.

My sorc is a first lifer and like my 6th alt btw and still handles the umd and concentration requirements.

[Zachski]

WF make better wizards than they do sorcerers.

I'd make a human sorc over a WF sorc any day

As far as sorcs not being DC dependent... do you never use CC spells? I find that hard to believe considering that while Sorcs are great blasters, their lives are made a lot easier when they throw down a nice CC spell before they begin the blasting.

[Khthonic]

Quicken is important. In epics when mobs are hitting you for 60-120dmg per hit, you don't want to fail even 1 *anything*. If you are a CCer the party depends on your ability to cast a spell to prevent them from potentially dying. Quicken is more than just no fail spells, it also means you can cast a spell fast. It means you can lay down a dancing ball in 3 seconds or spam death spells in a crunch. In numerous situations in all kinds of quests quicken can be the difference between life and death. My concentration is 65 self buffed and I still use quicken in many quests.

The only way you don't need quicken is if you plan on somehow never being damaged or never doing end game content.

[Khthonic]

WF make better wizards than they do sorcerers.

I'd make a human sorc over a WF sorc any day

As far as sorcs not being DC dependent... do you never use CC spells? I find that hard to believe considering that while Sorcs are great blasters, their lives are made a lot easier when they throw down a nice CC spell before they begin the blasting.

As a fleshy Wizard I will say I'm glad I'm not WF. I'm more versatile, have higher DC's, and as a PM I have most of the WF immunities. Plus my HP is near 600 so its not like im squishy.

[Kinerd]

Some people swear by scroll healing.
Some people have abandoned their characters out of disgust with scroll healing.
No one has ever abandoned a WF arcane because it couldn't Reconstruct itself well enough.

As a fleshy Wizard I will say I'm glad I'm not WF. I'm more versatile, have higher DC's, and as a PM I have most of the WF immunities. Plus my HP is near 600 so its not like im squishy.

This strays from the topic a bit, but AM should be taken into account in these comparisons. SLA Web alone is a dramatic increase in versatility over the PM.

[FranOhmsford]

Eh, what would possibly make you think they are #1 for FvS? Maybe #3, but certainly not #1, sorry. Wiz is also debatable, even though they are among the competition for it, sure. Monks? Only thing they have going for them are immunities, which are really not that big a deal at endgame, horcs or helves (rogue dilly) are better if youre after DPS monks IMHO, humans or helves if you want a tank/survivalist.

Btw. charisma is not the main stat for FvS either, no matter what the character creator tries to tell you.

Why do I have the feeling the thread just got derailed? Sorry guys

Sheer numbers!

Warforged FavSouls are everywhere.

Humans diluted heavily by H-Elves, You still get a few Drow "Lost" Souls.

Oh and a certain Forum Build - Soul Survivor - Isn't this supposed to be the top build in the game even now?

Cha is not the main stat for a good number of FavSouls I agree BUT this just plays into the WFds hands; softening the penalties they'd otherwise have.

Nothing debatable about Wiz and WF - There's people out there who'd argue till they're blue in the face that Halflings make the best wizards {I'm sure there's at least one} - Taking it by numbers though WF is clearly the majority choice and by a long way.
I myself prefer Elves, Humans and Drow but that's me - My only Warforged is a Spellsinger!

I've seen a good many monks in game and it seems to me that this is the class that's closest between races - The differences are just that small that it really doesn't matter what race you pick - WF Immunities though are a big bonus {Maybe more for mid game play than at cap I'll accept}.


No derailment - I agreed that WF are the #1 choice for Sorcs - I just added my own feelings on the matter too.


BTW for me Humans are in the top 3 for all classes because of that extra feat but aren't #1 for any.
H-Elves now push them back a place no matter what.

Warforged, H-Elf, Human - The top 3 races for almost everything.
H-Orcs win out as melees.
Drow, Dwarves, Elves get dumped on.
Halflings - The sneaky little beggars get everywhere. Not the best at anything BUT nowhere near the worst either.

It's only gonna get worse btw when WF get Racial Stalwart - Poor Dwarves!

[Isolani]

For soloing, there's no doubt WF is the best just for level drain immunity and self repair. WF are especially good for earth savant since DC's are less important and you can get a higher earthgrab DC than other races assuming you start with 20 constitution.

Scroll healing just sucks for soloing, it can be done, but it's a lot easier to just mash a quickened reconstruct button. For raiding/grouping, I would go human, helf, or drow for the extra feat and/or better DC's.

[LeLoric]

This strays from the topic a bit, but AM should be taken into account in these comparisons. SLA Web alone is a dramatic increase in versatility over the PM.

Throwing all your eggs in one basket is more versatile? *** are you talking about? web sla is ok but im sorry the pm just kills everythign you want to web and in the rare case they cant (death ward) then they just spend a few more sp for a normal web.