Shroud Grief

[RumbIe]

Well I've read a lot of pages here so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the OP automatically assumes that it was griefing, for which it implies there was intent. If someone accidentally griefs you it's called a mistake. I.e. they didn't do it on purpose.

By using DDoor you open up yourself to not just griefers (which I strongly feel there are very few) and the more likely option of people doing it by accident. I mean as much as I hate waiting for DDoorers (Is that even a word? It is now!!!) I would never click the altar. However I don't keep a constant vigil of who has cast what and when. Also you get some who cast and Chatty Kathys typing away about how they got the kill while they should be exiting.

It has been said many times in here, but seriously recalling or death is the fastest ticket out. Even if you wait for Harry to be completely dead and click it right away you will most likely make it out. If you are even the slightest bit worried at 5% step away from the party and leave. By stepping back you won't get hit/interrupted and can get out. At 5% unless it is a terrible run and healers are at 0 SP somehow no one will mind. To be honest I usually wait until he just dies and recall if I am repeating shroud (which I never do any more since I have seen the light that completing is actually more effective especially with multiple characters). In all of my times recalling I have never once had the alter hit before I got out.

So you asked for how to avoid grief and there it is. Don't invite it either accidentally or intentionally by recalling. Also as a little tip: Wait to say "Thanks for the run guys. Take care. It was nice running with you all." until AFTER you are out. I've seen people "griefed" that way as they typed instead of left.

[AdamSmith]

Develop a history of that, and wonder why you dont get accepted into 90% of the LFMs for raids anymore in the future. I know quite a few people who did this in the past whose LFMs I see up for 45 minutes or longer for each raid. Its hilarious that saving themselves 1 minute in the past a few times now means taking longer than everyone else to get things done due to the high percentage of cats who wont join their LFMs + leave if the griefer joins an LFM they are in after letting the leader know why.

Sorry its dead weight and pikers that get added to blacklists, not people that actually help get the quest done.

[PopeJual]

Best way to solve this:

It depends on what you consider a solution.

Since it's rare that people get screwed out of chests, I don't think that it's a significant problem in the first place. Since it is 100% preventable, I don't think that a programming change is required for this problem that isn't especially significant.

Making programming changes has two significant costs:
1) programmer/QA time invested into the change
2) chance of introducing new bugs.

I would be okay with paying for (1) in order to get a DM chat readout that shows who clicked the altar. I am not okay with submitting the Shroud to (2) in order to satisfy the curiosity of party members in the exceptionally rare occasion when someone is actually "griefed" in the Shroud. Especially since anyone who posts a thread in the forums about that "griefing" immediately learns a foolproof method to avoid it in the future and even more especially since we've seen what "fixes" can do to a raid with the recent "fixes" to the Abbot raid.

Don't fix what ain't broken.

The Shroud ain't broken.

[PopeJual]

Develop a history of that, and wonder why you dont get accepted into 90% of the LFMs for raids anymore in the future. I know quite a few people who did this in the past whose LFMs I see up for 45 minutes or longer for each raid. Its hilarious that saving themselves 1 minute in the past a few times now means taking longer than everyone else to get things done due to the high percentage of cats who wont join their LFMs + leave if the griefer joins an LFM they are in after letting the leader know why.

There was mention of a guild on Argonessen that has a reputation for "forcing" completions on people in the Shroud (even though there is no such thing as a forced completion in the Shroud).

I have never seen one of that guild's LFMs take longer than 5 minutes to fill.

Ever.

[Jay203]

perhaps they should make it so all chests are only available for open after the shroud is completed
no more ppl trying to recall out to farm it, no more "griefing"

[Izzban]

Sorry its dead weight and pikers that get added to blacklists, not people that actually help get the quest done.

Sorry, it's the jerks that are on my blacklist. Dead weight can be helped to improve their playstyle or characters. Piker can be taught the quest and what to do. You can't fix a jerk, however. Note how I didn't try to speak for everyone and merely stated my opinion, instead of false absolutes.

Another point I want to touch on one last time is the Ddoor. It is the fastest way for my characters to get out of shroud and into another quest. It takes 2 seconds for a loading screen so figure 5 seconds to run through 2 of them (on my computer). Oppose that to the time for recall, the time to heal up from /death, the time to restart from DCing and you will find that Ddoor is the fastest for my character. You are welcome to argue abstract and/or once in a blue moon situations like the ddoor accidents I read above, but my Ddoor is placed right where I want it, and the fact is, I am out of quest before others can recall.

Those that say Ddoor should be banned, Ddoorers are stupid, or Ddoor is slower are actually narrow-sighted and can only speak from their limited experience. "Most" players ddoor is slower yes. "All" players, no there are some exceptions.

[PopeJual]

Another point I want to touch on one last time is the Ddoor. It is the fastest way for my characters to get out of shroud and into another quest. It takes 2 seconds for a loading screen so figure 5 seconds to run through 2 of them (on my computer). Oppose that to the time for recall, the time to heal up from /death, the time to restart from DCing and you will find that Ddoor is the fastest for my character. You are welcome to argue abstract and/or once in a blue moon situations like the ddoor accidents I read above, but my Ddoor is placed right where I want it, and the fact is, I am out of quest before others can recall.

Those that say Ddoor should be banned, Ddoorers are stupid, or Ddoor is slower are actually narrow-sighted and can only speak from their limited experience. "Most" players ddoor is slower yes. "All" players, no there are some exceptions.

DDoors are actively dangerous for other players. DDoors can (and do) actively screw other players out of chests.

If your extra few seconds are so important to you that you are willing to cause that kind of problem for other players, then you are exactly the kind of person that you blacklist.

Don't DDoor in the Shroud. If getting out quickly is that important to you, then you you can /death faster. Yes, you have to take the extra few seconds to heal up, but there is zero risk of getting an unwanted completion and zero risk that you will end up accidentally griefing one of your fellow party members.

There is NO REASON to DDoor in the Shroud ever unless you actively want to screw over the people that are in the raid with you.

Just. Don't. Do. It.

Once in a blue moon is still enough to make the extra few seconds healing after a /death worthwhile. People only get a so-called forced completion once in a blue moon too, but there are still people like you and Varusso here arguing in this thread.

[Cyndrome]

Another point I want to touch on one last time is the Ddoor. It is the fastest way for my characters to get out of shroud and into another quest. It takes 2 seconds for a loading screen so figure 5 seconds to run through 2 of them (on my computer). Oppose that to the time for recall, the time to heal up from /death, the time to restart from DCing and you will find that Ddoor is the fastest for my character. You are welcome to argue abstract and/or once in a blue moon situations like the ddoor accidents I read above, but my Ddoor is placed right where I want it, and the fact is, I am out of quest before others can recall.

SO you can cast a ddoor but not a teleport or greater teleport?

[LazyTigerLily]

SO you can cast a ddoor but not a teleport or greater teleport?

I bet you 5k plat teleport is quicker than ddoor for getting out of shroud

[teh_meh]

Can you guys PLEASE add a two minute timer after the last part of the shroud when he dies?
I am REALLY REALLY tired of stupid people hitting the altar and griefing everyone who is trying to leave.

I was in mid ddoor out when someone did it today, so i lost out on two chests and have to wait for timer because some little snot nosed kid thinks its funny to cause grief for everyone else.

One person should not be allowed to mess things up for everyone else in the raid.

People are doing you a favor by smashing that altar asap. Eventually you will understand why newblet.

[Lleren]

Sorry, it's the jerks that are on my blacklist. Dead weight can be helped to improve their playstyle or characters. Piker can be taught the quest and what to do. You can't fix a jerk, however. Note how I didn't try to speak for everyone and merely stated my opinion, instead of false absolutes.

Another point I want to touch on one last time is the Ddoor. It is the fastest way for my characters to get out of shroud and into another quest. It takes 2 seconds for a loading screen so figure 5 seconds to run through 2 of them (on my computer). Oppose that to the time for recall, the time to heal up from /death, the time to restart from DCing and you will find that Ddoor is the fastest for my character. You are welcome to argue abstract and/or once in a blue moon situations like the ddoor accidents I read above, but my Ddoor is placed right where I want it, and the fact is, I am out of quest before others can recall.

Those that say Ddoor should be banned, Ddoorers are stupid, or Ddoor is slower are actually narrow-sighted and can only speak from their limited experience. "Most" players ddoor is slower yes. "All" players, no there are some exceptions.

If you are casting DDoor in Shroud, then you are risking the grief for some player that this thread is about avoiding, for your few seconds. How nice of you to increase the risk to newer players by the continuation of the method most likely to make them vulnerable to grief in the Shroud.

[Vellrad]

People are doing you a favor by smashing that altar asap. Eventually you will understand why newblet.

I would like to know how someone is making me favor by forcing me to wait next 3 days before i can try to get shard of power when my bags are overflowing with all kind of shroud mats.

[rjbutchko]

Three words: Royal Guard Mask.

+1

OP: No love. Not signed.

Im so glad we dont have this nonsense in LoB and MA.

Havent read the whole thread, but IMHO ALL the chests in the quest should spawn at the end. After the last altar is hit. Drop rates on larges have been increased. You SHOULD have to wait a while to make your GS. Gives people time to actually learn the game. I dont really care if someone recalls and doesnt take the completion (which in the long run is kind of a waste) but after a rough shroud the LAST thing I want to do is wait for someone to recall. Even 9 or 10 seconds. I just want to get my loot, drop group, go on my way.

And please, why are people still treating Shroud as endgame?

[teh_meh]

I would like to know how someone is making me favor by forcing me to wait next 3 days before i can try to get shard of power when my bags are overflowing with all kind of shroud mats.

On Argo, you can't even give shards away. I am surprised you are having such difficulty having someone simply pass you one. Just let the group know at the beginning of the run that you are hunting one and problem solved.

Biggest roadblocks to GS production are cleansing stones. By not taking completions as soon as possible, you are b0rking yourself down the road big time.

The right way to farm shroud is by running it with multiple toons, although I agree that doesn't help with BtC shards.

As for having my devs spend my money on implementing a feature so exploiters can farm shroud instead of completing the raid (as intended), I'm not down with that. Other things are WAY more important to the 'to do' list

[PopeJual]

I would like to know how someone is making me favor by forcing me to wait next 3 days before i can try to get shard of power when my bags are overflowing with all kind of shroud mats.

Teh_meh isn't often gentle with what he posts, but I have rarely seen him post something incorrect on the forums. That post in particular was not incorrect.

Also, NO ONE aside from yourself forced you to wait 3 days before you could try for a shard of power. You had an opportunity to get out before the altar was hit. You chose to not take that opportunity.

[Malshier]

Teh_meh isn't often gentle with what he posts, but I have rarely seen him post something incorrect on the forums. That post in particular was not incorrect.

Also, NO ONE aside from yourself forced you to wait 3 days before you could try for a shard of power. You had an opportunity to get out before the altar was hit. You chose to not take that opportunity.

Personal responsibility is hard.

[Such755]

No thanks.
I don't want to wait two extra minutes after finishing the quest, I'm sorry to hear what happened to you, but there are d-bags out there that we all need to deal with.

[Chai]

Sorry its dead weight and pikers that get added to blacklists, not people that actually help get the quest done.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Waiting 30 seconds for someone to get out isnt piking. Clicking the alter in part 5 before people can get out doesnt "help get the quest done faster." In fact, they are insuring this doesnt happen for them in the future. Behold:

Ive been on the server pretty much since day one, and I dont see anything remotely close to your observation. Its the players that think they can take over a group and run shop on how everyone else plays (according to their elitist opinion) that get listed. Sarlona has a decent list. ~10-15 of them still play. You can spot the repeat offenders easily enough. Look for the shroud LFMs that take longer to fill than it takes to run the quest, whose LFMs have had more than 20 people in them. One person joins, sees old school griefer with a bad rep in the group, and leaves. Person with bad griefing rep joins group, 3 or 4 people drop group in the next 10 seconds. You just know the leader is being sent tells. Its most easy to spot when there are multiple shroud runs up. The griefer has had their LFM chillin for 25 minutes, and the new LFM pops up, gets filled, raid gets completed, and when they all step out, griefer is still sitting there next to the meridia mailbox with ~9 people in group.

People who thought that clicking on the alter in part 5 - 30 seconds sooner than it would have been clicked on was somehow "helping the group complete faster" in the past are the ones trying to fill those groups, and failing miserably doing so. Some of them are the best zergers and XP farmers on the server. They zerged their way to taking 45 minutes to fill a raid LFM, and not being taken to the more serious raids, due to their sheer disregard for anything anyone else says or does. If I cant expect them to listen when I tell them to wait 30 seconds for the people who want to leave, how can I expect them to listen when I do assignments for the tougher encounters when everyone needs to be on point? DDO is not a gear check where people are statistically dead weight, its an attitude check. If a player cant be counted on to wait to click an alter, they cant be counted on for much else. Showing me that you can run from point A to point B and hit the completion button as fast or faster than anyone else doesnt indicate that they can follow directions, but when its known that people want to leave and they click the alter anyhow, they just indicated pretty clearly that they cannot.

Sorry, it's the jerks that are on my blacklist. Dead weight can be helped to improve their playstyle or characters. Piker can be taught the quest and what to do. You can't fix a jerk, however. Note how I didn't try to speak for everyone and merely stated my opinion, instead of false absolutes.

This.

Most of Sarlonas serious endgamers fill the tougher raids with people who will follow directions. Clicking on an alter 30 seconds sooner thinking they are 'helping complete the quest faster" doesnt fall into that category. People who pull these kinds of antics in something as easy as the Shroud are throwing up red flags that say "I cant be counted on to follow directions when the going gets tough." -They couldnt even be counted on to wait 30 seconds AFTER all the "work" was done.

[PopeJual]

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Waiting 30 seconds for someone to get out isnt piking. Clicking the alter in part 5 before people can get out doesnt "help get the quest done faster." In fact, they are insuring this doesnt happen for them in the future.

You misunderstand because you were reading what you expected to read instead of what was actually written.

Waiting 30 seconds for someone to get out isn't piking. AdamSmith didn't say that, though. What he said was that most people blacklist incompetent morons and pikers rather than the people who are useful in a quest.

Quick quiz: who is more likely to make a meaningful contribution to a Shroud - the person who wants to recall in the end and then whines instead of taking responsibility for his own actions or the person who clicked the altar? I'll even give you a hint - it's not the person who wanted to recall.

I do think that clicking the altar immediately after Harry dies is rude. It's not griefing, though. NO ONE can force you to complete the Shroud if you want to run the Shroud without completing.

The only actual opportunity for griefing after Harry is dead comes from DDoors, not from altar clicking.

[PopeJual]

Most of Sarlonas serious endgamers fill the tougher raids with people who will follow directions. Clicking on an alter 30 seconds sooner thinking they are 'helping complete the quest faster" doesnt fall into that category. People who pull these kinds of antics in something as easy as the Shroud are throwing up red flags that say "I cant be counted on to follow directions when the going gets tough." -They couldnt even be counted on to wait 30 seconds AFTER all the "work" was done.

Most of Argonessen's serious endgamers fill the tougher raids with people who are able to follow directions and who are also able to function independently when directions aren't needed.

Sheep aren't needed for raids.

People who are afraid of clicking an altar because Chai might blacklist them are throwing up red flags that say, "I can't be counted on to think for myself when the going gets tough and the raid's leader isn't available to give detailed directions to every single member of the raid at the same time."