Acrobat Advice

[Isildur1212]

K on a lot of builds i am viewing, the acrobat has a high dex which i find unusual for several reasons:

- Main weapon of acrobat is qstaff, which is str based (except for that strange breeze)
-Dex modifier IS added to sneak attack damage but its a very little bonus

Wouldnt the dex points be put to better use in something like str / con? Then just use char and int as dump stats? i just dont see why one needs to put like 18 points in dex

[HastyPudding]

Acrobats are actually a defensive-oriented rogue. DEX adds reflexes and AC (both are good for avoiding damage), as well as it's damage to sneak attacks with quarterstaves. It's also handy for skills that acrobats excel at -- balance and tumble -- as well as classic rogue skills like open lock, hide, and move silently.

The majority of acrobats also use levels in monk. The monk wind stance is based on dexterity, which is the one most widely used because of its bonus to attack speed and double strikes in melee, as well as adding even more DEX. With all of these bonuses to DEX, you're going to have a very high reflex save and an excellent AC for most of the game, which is what the entire PrE is about; mobility, speed, and avoiding danger.


Although, in my opinion, with DEX being a very popular stat for the PrE, the Acrobat should add quarterstaves as a finesse weapon; it makes sense in both a game perspective and from a lore standpoint.

[unbongwah]

DEX-based "staff-crobats" are usually built to use the few staves which use DEX instead of STR: e.g., Breeze, (epic) Staff of Nat Gann. Personally I don't think it's good to make a build which can only use a couple of weapons (which aren't so great to begin with); and you need base STR 17 to get GTHF anyway, so either you've spread your stats thin or you're missing out on the DPS of the full THF chain.

But staff builds are flavor builds in the first place, so perhaps one should not be so critical of builds which are more, umm, flavorful than others.

[HastyPudding]

DEX-based "staff-crobats" are usually built to use the few staves which use DEX instead of STR: e.g., Breeze, (epic) Staff of Nat Gann. Personally I don't think it's good to make a build which can only use a couple of weapons (which aren't so great to begin with); and you need base STR 17 to get GTHF anyway, so either you've spread your stats thin or you're missing out on the DPS of the full THF chain.

But staff builds are flavor builds in the first place, so perhaps one should not be so critical of builds which are more, umm, flavorful than others.

As I said, the point of the Acrobat is a defensive rogue, whereas assassin is offense and mechanic is utility. The two DEX-based quarterstaves are basically tailor-made for Acrobats, and have all of the essentials that make Acrobats what they are.

And yes, Acrobats in general are for fun and flavor, so that not everybody is an assassin clone (and mechanics aren't for everybody). I would make one myself if I had the time and not devoted to 2 other characters.

[Jaid314]

acrobats are defensive rogues, sure, but that doesn't mean that they should be dex-based. once geared, at least, a few extra points in dex are not going to be of great value.

that said, when you do the math for raw DPS, a dex-based acrobat using dex-based quarterstaves actually have very close to the same DPS as a strength-based one... provided the target is subject to sneak attack.

(that is, 1.5 * strength + dex is often quite close to 2 * dex, which is what the dex-based quarterstaves offer).

the main problem is that you find yourself limited to only a couple of different quarterstaves. this may change in the future, especially if the devs change something in the enhancement update to (at the very least) allow quarterstaves to be finesse weapons. that said... who knows when the enhancement update will hit.

imo: acrobats should be strength-based. the sheer variety of options it opens up is too much to pass up on.

but not everyone will agree with my opinion, and that's fine too

[HastyPudding]

acrobats are defensive rogues, sure, but that doesn't mean that they should be dex-based. once geared, at least, a few extra points in dex are not going to be of great value.

that said, when you do the math for raw DPS, a dex-based acrobat using dex-based quarterstaves actually have very close to the same DPS as a strength-based one... provided the target is subject to sneak attack.

(that is, 1.5 * strength + dex is often quite close to 2 * dex, which is what the dex-based quarterstaves offer).

the main problem is that you find yourself limited to only a couple of different quarterstaves. this may change in the future, especially if the devs change something in the enhancement update to (at the very least) allow quarterstaves to be finesse weapons. that said... who knows when the enhancement update will hit.

imo: acrobats should be strength-based. the sheer variety of options it opens up is too much to pass up on.

but not everyone will agree with my opinion, and that's fine too

And that, like most build-oriented issues in DDO, is the problem; everything is about dps dps dps dps. The ingenuity and diversity of D&D PnP simply doesn't translate well to an MMORPG. There's no room for support, defense, or utility in this game, it's all about maximizing damage to zerg through quests. It's a stigma that anything that isn't optimized for damage is sub-optimal. Sad, really.

[scoobmx]

DEX-based "staff-crobats" are usually built to use the few staves which use DEX instead of STR: e.g., Breeze, (epic) Staff of Nat Gann. Personally I don't think it's good to make a build which can only use a couple of weapons (which aren't so great to begin with); and you need base STR 17 to get GTHF anyway, so either you've spread your stats thin or you're missing out on the DPS of the full THF chain.

But staff builds are flavor builds in the first place, so perhaps one should not be so critical of builds which are more, umm, flavorful than others.

How dare you sir call my triple A staff-cher acrobat a flavor build.

[spectroum]

K on a lot of builds i am viewing, the acrobat has a high dex which i find unusual for several reasons:

- Main weapon of acrobat is qstaff, which is str based (except for that strange breeze)
-Dex modifier IS added to sneak attack damage but its a very little bonus

Wouldnt the dex points be put to better use in something like str / con? Then just use char and int as dump stats? i just dont see why one needs to put like 18 points in dex

Well sadly as already pointed only 2 staves use DEX as dmg/to-hit so if u gonna play with just these 2 as a DEX based acrobat then u'll have very low dps vs trash but very nice vs evil outsider bosses (talking about natt gann staff)

Compared to another BB (minII/alchemical) natt gann has a lot more base dmg so as a DEX based with wind stance+showtime u can raise significally ur dps vs certain mobs (50-52 DEX fully buffed)

But still u lack versatility...

If u go STR based then u can take advantage of all those nice staves like rahl's might (the best staff in the game imo), GS staves and even alchemical...imo acrobats are one the funest builds in the game so either u go DEX or STR based doesnt matter as long as u enjoy playing the toon

(i used to have a 2nd life acrobat/ninja 12rog/6mnk/2ftr halfling with 32str 34 dex and was able to go sun stance+rahls for trash and wind stance+natt gann for bosses...maybe he was dealing less dps than a STR based acrobat with a different build but he was so much fun!)

[FranOhmsford]

Well sadly as already pointed only 2 staves use DEX as dmg/to-hit so if u gonna play with just these 2 as a DEX based acrobat then u'll have very low dps vs trash but very nice vs evil outsider bosses (talking about natt gann staff)

Compared to another BB (minII/alchemical) natt gann has a lot more base dmg so as a DEX based with wind stance+showtime u can raise significally ur dps vs certain mobs (50-52 DEX fully buffed)

But still u lack versatility...

If u go STR based then u can take advantage of all those nice staves like rahl's might (the best staff in the game imo), GS staves and even alchemical...imo acrobats are one the funest builds in the game so either u go DEX or STR based doesnt matter as long as u enjoy playing the toon

(i used to have a 2nd life acrobat/ninja 12rog/6mnk/2ftr halfling with 32str 34 dex and was able to go sun stance+rahls for trash and wind stance+natt gann for bosses...maybe he was dealing less dps than a STR based acrobat with a different build but he was so much fun!)

Nat Gann is fine at Lvl 5 - Usable at Lvl 10 But the next Dex Q-Staff comes from a raid that's known as a PITA to run.
Weapon Finesse for Quarterstaves would be a boost yes BUT far far too small a boost as it does absolutely nothing for damage.
Acrobats need to get To Hit AND Damage to ALL Quarterstaves {and not just on Sneak Attacks}.

Sorry but Monk just makes me want to use Wraps - They're after all far better than anything else even with just the one level in monk.

Acrobat III at a bare minimum should give DEX to Hit and Dmg for Acrobats - I would much prefer if this was put on Acrobat I though myself.

Also Disable Device I have posted about before - This should be a Dex skill not Int {We have a feat called Nimble Fingers after all}.
Search should be moved to Wisdom to further reduce the Multi-Attribute dependancy of Rogues.

Assassinate and Mech's X-Bow bonuses could also be moved to Wisdom.

This would actually boost Ranger/Rogues too {Rangers are very similar to Rogues in PnP after all} though it would be a nerf to Wiz/Rogues {They would have to put points into something other than Int and Con}.
It would also make a certain Divine spell viable {Find Traps}.

[Jaid314]

And that, like most build-oriented issues in DDO, is the problem; everything is about dps dps dps dps. The ingenuity and diversity of D&D PnP simply doesn't translate well to an MMORPG. There's no room for support, defense, or utility in this game, it's all about maximizing damage to zerg through quests. It's a stigma that anything that isn't optimized for damage is sub-optimal. Sad, really.

how is that the problem? i just very clearly stated your DPS will be very similar on a dex acrobat. it's the variety of options that you lose out on with a dex-based acrobat, not the DPS.

my strength-based acrobat can use a rahl's might for improved destruction, or a souleater for self-sufficiency, or a min II (or a cannith-crafted metal-type QS, and yes they can exist and no it isn't only from the store) for DR breaking, or an epic... err... whatever that QS from the spider queen quests is called... or paralyzing quarterstaves, or banishing, or smiting, or disrupting, or the staff of shadows (which has various rather nice options to put into it), or various other debuffing quarterstaves.

there's plenty of room for support and utility. i assure you, if you go fight epic malicia with rahl's might (or a cannith crafted DR breaker of improved destruction), you will improve DPS overall much more than just about anything else you could bring to the table. if you fully debuff a raid boss with everything possible, iirc, that raid boss will have something like -15 to hit (and will be much much much easier to tank). people don't do it because you need to know the other guy is going to be prepared to support it; there's little point in causing -15 to-hit on a raid boss if nobody is going to have the AC and threat to tank him, for example.

the thing that makes utility and support less valuable in DDO vs regular pen and paper is primarily the lack of static parties, not the fact that DPS works on everything.

if every shroud run had multiple people with good AC in it to surround harry and lock him in place, people would be all over debuffing him. the problem is that for most people, the only character you know will be in the group is your own.