Combat Change Details

[waterboytkd]

Upon further rumination, I think the PRR values for the earth stances are too low. Monks don't gain a PRR bonus based on their BAB (they're not wearing armor), and then compare what they do get vs what a SD or DoS gets (15 vs 45). I just don't see monk-based tanks surviving after this without some more tweaks.

I think Earth stance should count as "Armor" for purposes of PRR. Maybe something like: Lesser Mountain Stance -- you gain PRR equal to (1/2 your BAB) +5; Mountain Stance -- you gain PRR equal to (2/3 your BAB) +10; Greater Mountain Stance -- you gain PRR equal to your BAB +15; Ultimate Mountain Stance -- your gain PRR equal to your BAB +20. This would at least make a level 20 monk have a 40 PRR vs a level 20 DoS's/SD's 65 PRR.

[Izwor91]

I just logged on my 20 WF monk.
And checked my AC again...

I must say I was shocked, 114 AC. What, how did I get so much? (got ~50 live).
And checked what we have there:
10 base
5 dex
6 wis
10 armour
5 deflection
1 feat
58! centered
20% AC bonus (earth stance)
total 114 with 73% miss chance

Well I didn't find any info about huge boost to monk AC
It used to be 5 cenrtered bonus on live, 20 in beta1 and now it's 58!

Good job, Devs!

[TreknaQudane]

Please forgive this hatchet job...

You can calculate how much each point of Physical Resistance Rating is helping using the following formula: (1 – (0.99^Physical Resistance Rating))*0.65

PPR	Protection		PPR	Protection
0	0.00%			110	43.48%
10	6.22%			120	45.54%
20	11.84%			130	47.40%
30	16.92%			140	49.08%
40	21.52%			150	50.61%
50	25.67%			160	51.98%
60	29.43%			170	53.23%
70	32.84%			180	54.35%
80	35.91%			190	55.37%
90	38.69%			200	56.29%
100	41.21%			210	57.12%

If you are proficient in your armor:
Heavy Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus.
Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus.
Light Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus.

Class Changes:
Barbarians and Rogues gain +1% Dodge at levels 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Feat and Enhancement Changes:
Uncanny Dodge: Activate this ability to gain a temporary 25% Dodge bonus and a +4 reflex save bonus.
Note: Uncanny Dodge is no longer a times-per-day ability, but instead has a cooldown. Temporary Dodge bonuses ignore the Dodge cap normally applied by your armor's Maximum Dexterity Bonus cap.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: Activate this ability to gain a temporary 50% Dodge bonus and +6 reflex save bonus.
Note: Improved Uncanny Dodge is no longer a times-per-day ability, but instead has a cooldown. Temporary Dodge bonuses ignore the Dodge cap normally applied by your armor's Maximum Dexterity Bonus cap.


Dodge Grants you a +1 bonus to your Armor Class that stacks with all other bonuses to AC (this will appear as a feat bonus on your character sheet). You will also gain a 3% Dodge bonus.

Mobility Increases the maximum dexterity bonus permitted by armor and tower shields by 2, and adds a +4 bonus to Armor Class while tumbling. You will also gain a 2% Dodge bonus.

Spring Attack You suffer no penalty to your attack roll when moving and attacking. You will also gain a 2% Dodge bonus.

Mithral Body Docents you equip provide armor equivalent to Chainmail. This is treated as metallic light armor. You have a 15% arcane spell failure chance, -1 armor check penalty to certain skills, and a +5 maximum dexterity bonus.

Adamantine Body Docents you equip provide armor equivalent to Full Plate. This is treated as metallic heavy armor. You have damage reduction 2/adamantine, a 35% arcane spell failure chance, -5 armor check penalty to certain skills, and a +1 maximum dexterity bonus.
Armor Tiers

 			AC	Max Dex	Level
HEAVY ARMOR
(Heavy Plates)
Full Plate		8	1	1 to 7
Battle Plate		12	1	8 to 13
Magecraft Plate		16	1	14 to 19
Mountain Plate		20	1	20 to 24
Planeforged Plate	24	1	25
 	 	 	 	 
				
MEDIUM ARMOR
 	 	 	 	 
LIGHT ARMOR		 	 	 
(Chainmail)				
Chainmail Shirt		4	5	1 to 7
Skirmish Chainmail	5	7	8 to 13		
Feycraft Chainmail	7	9	14 to 19	
Spiritcraft Chainmail	9	11	20 to 24	
Celestial Chainmail	12	13	25

So I'd like to point out something obvious here.

There is no Medium Armor selection for WF and with physical resistance and increased armor value, it kind of matters to have one now.

WF Artificers, Barbarians, Druids, Favored Souls, Warchanter Bards, or Fighters, Paladins, and Clerics that just want more dodge over High AC currently have to fall back on Mithral Body which has a rather LARGE amount of dexterity to fill out compared to Medium Armors. Heck, WF druids can't wear ANY armor as Mithral and Adamantine are clearly body and Composite now only provides protections of cloth (none).

I will grant you that most WF FvS that take a body feat go for Adamantine due to the stacking nature of the DR you earn, but as an inherently medium armor focused class, I would fully expect the melee path for FvS to get some sort of dodge bonus that would be lost using Adamantine Body.

Artificers are going to skip a body or get Light, which they may more may not fill out. Either way they'll be getting less Physical Resistance than they could otherwise.

Bards receive no benefit from the Warchanter ability allowing them to cast in Medium Armor (there is none after all). They'll also have less Physical Resistance than other WC using Medium Armors.

Druids are stuck with the same defensive opportunities as a Sorcerer than can't cast Blur or Displace.. that is to say RUN AWAY. Fleshy Druids can at least wear Leathers and the odd Medium Dragonscale/Named items.

Where is the option for WF? If you were to fall back to PnP it's Ironwood body. It's medium armor providing that level of Physical Resistance... and it's Wooden allowing for a WF Druid to actually use Armor. Give it stats comparable to Breastplate or Scalemail.

Also with the renewed emphasis on Armor being important... It's an incredibly steep cost for anyone except a Fighter, as a WF, to purchase a Body Feat. The net result is the race of beings designed for war are ultimately going to be one of the squishiest because it's not cost effective for most characters to actually BUY the feat for Armor.

With Immunities meaning less (They help, but they're not immunities), Docents being almost universally worse than armor except in the rare occurrence a named item is made without it's effects being thought through... It is past time to give all WF a racial feat at Level 1 that lets them Train their choice of Composite, Mithral, Ironwood or Adamantine Body.

[Ape_Man]

So the defender stance only gives and AC bonus to Armor and shield AC.

Stalwart Defender III: Superior Defensive Stance You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Competence bonus on all saves, 45 physical resistance, and a 40% bonus to Armor Class from armor and shields. You also gain a 75% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Is this what's intended? This kills ANY viability of an the 18/2 defender builds unless the dodge bonuses get to ludicrous levels.

Why was this changed from a flat bonus to just Armor and shield?

[donblas]

I just logged on my 20 WF monk.
And checked my AC again...

I must say I was shocked, 114 AC. What, how did I get so much? (got ~50 live).
And checked what we have there:
10 base
5 dex
6 wis
10 armour
5 deflection
1 feat
58! centered
20% AC bonus (earth stance)
total 114 with 73% miss chance

Well I didn't find any info about huge boost to monk AC
It used to be 5 cenrtered bonus on live, 20 in beta1 and now it's 58!

Good job, Devs!

Gratz, Now you will be hit only about 1/4 as often as my 5th level AC28 Sorceror

and only 1/3 as often as my lvl7 Elf archmage.

[Synthetic]

Why do people keep comparing monks with earth stance to fighters with Stalwart defender in heavy plate. Monks gain evasion which is a huge bonus to damage avoidance from spells. The heavy plate wearer just has to suck up that spell damage but takes less physical damage. The AC of both will be very close from what I can tell - remember SD only improves AC from armor and shield while earth stance appears to be all armor. Monks also get to use two weapon fighting which would be a significant boost to dps over the sword and board.

None of the comparisons are taking into context the 25% incorporeal from shadow fade i.e. it's not a comparison of class with PRE to class with PRE.

[Dolphious]

I'm actually quite happy with that, however I cring at the .75 rogue getting half of his 15. (7.5 PRR @ 20? Rounded up/down?) for wearing.. erm.. what he oughta be.

PRR = BAB if proficient might be (Dramatically)smoother. Maybe make each non-proficent kick them "Down" .25 BAB?

Some math with my suggested solution:
Fighter: Fullplate, Tower shield = 20 BAB = 20PRR - Golden.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Assuming non-proficient on both.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 5PRR - Master touch on the tower shield.
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 5PRR - Non-Prof (Both)
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Med armor-Prof
Rogue: Duelist Leathers, 2WF = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Average rogue, more a less.
FavSol: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Still worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Also worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Remains worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Tower shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - BAB Kicked down from non-proficent tower.
Ranger: Duelist Leathers, Heavy shield = 20BAB = 20PRR - I see no problem here.

Now.. that math with existing system..
Fighter: Fullplate, Tower shield = 20 BAB = 20PRR - Golden.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Assuming non-proficient on both.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Master touch on the tower shield.
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 0PRR - Non-Prof
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Med armor-Prof
Rogue: Duelist Leathers, 2WF = 15 BAB = 7.5PRR- Average rogue, more a less.
FavSol: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - half a fighter?
Cleric: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Also worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Remains worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Tower shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - No change. This is bad.
Ranger: Duelist Leathers, Heavy shield = 20BAB = 10PRR - ERK? and a half?

Not for nothing Eldrin, but a notion like that was pitched for combat mastery and had some issues. I pitched my own suggestion regarding combat training far and wide, as it took care of some of that. Looks like you all tried to adapt the former, and its glaring issues are still there even with combat training being dumpster-bound. It's a solid notion, but %of BAB really kills in this implementation. Not to mention the absence of non- /proficiency for things like shields.

Long run, the double penalty on non-warrior classes is going to cause a boatload of problems. I entreat you.. Solve this mechanism before the stormreaver's device goes off.

I definitely prefer the "as it stands now" numbers. Divines and arcanes have plenty of defensive options already, they don't need any PRR. Rogues are getting dodge, and are getting some PRR, so that looks. Rangers probably do need to get thrown a bone, but I'd prefer it to be something different than the same heavy armor bonuses that pallies and fighters get.

In particular classes that aren't gong to get hit with the massive melee DPS nerf that is going to take place if this goes live as is (about 25% dps loss for most builds), really shouldn't be gaining a lot from the defensive side of this.

[Mojoronomous]

So I'd like to point out something obvious here.

There is no Medium Armor selection for WF and with physical resistance and increased armor value, it kind of matters to have one now.
...
It is past time to give all WF a racial feat at Level 1 that lets them Train their choice of Composite, Mithral, Ironwood or Adamantine Body.

I'm actually really surprised to not see the Ironwood Body feat. Warforged + Druids + AC Change = a perfect fit, after all. The stats should be along the lines of scale / banded mail that's base material is a wood, for instance, Imbued Darkleaf Banded Armor (actually Darkwood, but just an example).

As far as a racial feat, I'd like to see them be able to get a body feat like Helves get their Dilletante ... or change those feats to enhancements instead (a "Pimp My Warforged" body line).

I also have to say that I'm not terribly keen on the idea of Mithral armors providing less Physical Resist just because they aren't as heavy as steel. Mithral (and Darkwood) should provide the same Physical Resist as the original weight class, not the new one. Otherwise you have situations where something like the Cavalry Plate becomes less protective as you level it up. It could be interesting to see Adamantine bump Physical Resist in the other direction, however... it's always felt like Mithral's poorer cousin.

[Citzen_Gkar]

I just logged on my 20 WF monk.
And checked my AC again...

I must say I was shocked, 114 AC. What, how did I get so much? (got ~50 live).
And checked what we have there:
10 base
5 dex
6 wis
10 armour
5 deflection
1 feat
58! centered
20% AC bonus (earth stance)
total 114 with 73% miss chance

Well I didn't find any info about huge boost to monk AC
It used to be 5 cenrtered bonus on live, 20 in beta1 and now it's 58!

Good job, Devs!

The number doesn't mean what you think it does. Everyone's AC will be higher but each point of AC makes less of a difference than before.

[Citzen_Gkar]

I know this has been asked already but I would also like an answer...

What about mithral?


MBP is "light" armor, but mithral, while being lighter, is just as durable, if not more, than more traditional metals.

I think its very important that the DR/PR be based on the item's default weight (in this case, medium) and not the reduced weight (in this case light) or it defeats the purpose of mithral.

So devs, whats the situation with mithral?

[noinfo]

It should be 10%.


Monks that are out of earth stance will still have a decent armor class and dodge, being more of an evasion style character than taking the hits. Their improved healing amplification gives them a different way of increasing their overall "effecting hit points" if they have healing abilities.

I'll be watching monks and monk splashes very closely, they're my primary "worry" with the current numbers. Adjustments will be made as needed.

First thank you for being upfront with the changes here.

Now a quick review and impact on how combat goes:

Amarath elite assume mob too hit of 59
AC toon AC of 100

Results in being hit approximately 35% of the time or 1/3 swings
At this stage a 2nd level long term effect blur reduces that by 20%-> (7%) Big bonus 28%
Another low level effect reduces that by 10%-> 25% or being hit 1 in every 4 swings for full damage

Now a short term arcane buff displacement -> 17.5%
With ghostly -> 15.5% (approximately)

You then have your other factors such as dodge which lets be generous and say you can hit 20% or 35% reduction

Without displacement you are getting smashed for effectively full damage over 20% of the time!

A single short term Arcane buff is now so incredibly powerful that without it the rest of our stuff caps out at a pitiful level.

So our AC melees are likely to be able to get to 1/4 fully geared assuming ghostly and blur with maximum AC based gear due to massive diminishing returns

Our Arcanes with Displacement and ghostly 50%*10% no ac means ignoring many other factors will be hit less than half the time.

As it stands your system has done a pretty good job at bringing low to mid AC back into relevance. It has removed the upper end which was the core self sufficient aspect from many AC builds, you cannot come close to your previous damage mitigation using this system and we are now reliant on a 3rd level spell more than ever. This is an a nerf that was certainly not needed and I would like to hear the actual reasoning for this, were people scared due to the number of AC melee soloing raids and epics? I can to a degree understand the desire for bosses to hit more often but vs trash that can be killed by arcanes and divines so easily this is a slap in the face.

[Dolphious]

Without displacement you are getting smashed for effectively full damage over 20% of the time!

A single short term Arcane buff is now so incredibly powerful that without it the rest of our stuff caps out at a pitiful level.

That's a really great point, blurr and displacement should really get a look. It was one thing when defense was so make-shift, but if it's going to get an overhaul it really makes sense to ask what kind of impact a lvl 2 and 3 spell should give.

It has removed the upper end which was the core self sufficient aspect from many AC builds, you cannot come close to your previous damage mitigation using this system and we are now reliant on a 3rd level spell more than ever. This is an a nerf that was certainly not needed and I would like to hear the actual reasoning for this, were people scared due to the number of AC melee soloing raids and epics? I can to a degree understand the desire for bosses to hit more often but vs trash that can be killed by arcanes and divines so easily this is a slap in the face.

While I totally hear where you're coming from, there's a reason you used Amrath as an example. It's really the only place where: 1) trash is dangerous to capped (and reasonably geared) toons, and 2) AC can make a real difference. Ok *maybe* Cannith, *mabye* inspired corner, but it's pretty limited. I'll happily trade loosing some trash defense in Amrath and some other niche places for getting serious defense in every "epic" quest.

[legendlore]

(except bards)

aha! I knew it was in the "how to do things" for developers book

u? Magical training and inspiring echoes for all casters! (except bards)

u10(?) cheaper spells for all casters! (except bards)

u11(?) dots for all casters! (except bards)

u13 stacking enchantment DC ship buff for all casters! (except bards)

u14 ac revision with inbuilt bonuses to ac for melee (except bards)

[Dolphious]

aha, I knew it was in the "how to do things" for developers book

u10(?) cheaper spells for all casters! (except bards)

u11(?) dots for all casters! (except bards)

u13 stacking enchantment DC ship buff for all casters! (except bards)

u14 ac revision with inbuilt bonuses ac for melee (except bards)

Ahh, the heady days of update 12, we could almost see the sun starting to poke out from behind the clouds...

[Faent]

I can to a degree understand the desire for bosses to hit more often but vs trash that can be killed by arcanes and divines so easily this is a slap in the face.

This. 1000x. Melees are further marginalized by the changes. The ideal group will consist primarily of arcanes and divines, and, in some limited content, a melee tank. I will have one melee in my stable in the future: a new-style tank for the limited content it's needed in. Barbarians are making out like bandits, of course, but I hate playing them.

[Stillwaters]

As it stands your system has done a pretty good job at bringing low to mid AC back into relevance. It has removed the upper end which was the core self sufficient aspect from many AC builds, you cannot come close to your previous damage mitigation using this system and we are now reliant on a 3rd level spell more than ever.

+1

High end ac types = get missed about 60-70% of the time vs trash 75% in very best armor and shield and stance
Casting a 3rd lvl spell with 0 ac = get missed about 50% of the time vs trash.

Only change between this system and live is that now the top end tanks get hit about 4-8 times as often, and the non investment/low investment high DPS toons get hit only 3 times as often as the tanks!

reference actual math strings: Here , and HERE!

[Faent]

aha! I knew it was in the "how to do things" for developers book

u? Magical training and inspiring echoes for all casters! (except bards)

u10(?) cheaper spells for all casters! (except bards)

u11(?) dots for all casters! (except bards)

u13 stacking enchantment DC ship buff for all casters! (except bards)

u14 ac revision with inbuilt bonuses to ac for melee (except bards)

Thanks for the reminder that Rangers might not be at the very bottom of the ignored pile. =)

[voodoogroves]

Thanks for the reminder that Rangers might not be at the very bottom of the ignored pile. =)

Nah, Bards are in good shape. That SP song is huge for everyone, and the Virtuoso HP song is a great little boost too. Both in the same party, and you're unkillable!

[Stillwaters]

/snip double post

[Skeald]

I was hoping to get a clarification from a developer on how certain feats are calculated with the new formulas for ac and to hit.

Specifically the feats that add to hit; Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, and the fighter passive past life feat, and those that subtract from to hit; Power Attack, Combat Expertise and a few others.

All of the add to-hit feats state that they add +1 to hit with either all weapons (past life), or with specific damage type weapons (Weapon Focus, ect), and the subtractions to hit feats (Power Attack, ect) subtract 5 from the to hit value. My question is when is the +1 or -5 added to the calculations? Specifically, we have a formula that is a percentage that is then rounded to a D20 value, and my question is when is the +1 or -5 applied before or after the rounding takes place.

Using the formula in place for beta 3 are these feats inserted into the "players attack bonus" part of the formula -in example using a level 20 kensi fighter, 34 strength (not including power surge here), +5 focused weapon, and feats/enhancements (1 past life fighter, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, superior weapon focus, kensi weapons I, kensi weapons II) the formula states (Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 25% rounded to nearest 5%.

Would the Player Attack Bonus be = 20 (BAB) + 12 (STR) + 5 (weapon enhancement bonus) +6 (Feats) = 43 (38 with PA toggled on) or are the +/- to feats/enhancements added directly to the resulting percentage, or as +/- to the resulting rounded value. I have to assume at this point that the feats/enhancements are added to the player attack bonus as calculated above

Assuming an AC 40 Mob this calculation on would yield a result of .91875 rounded to 90% or hitting on an 18, with Power Attack on the result would Yield .85625 rounded to 85% or hitting on a 17.

Removing the +6 from the feats/enhancements against the same Mob would yield .84375 rounded to 80%(or 85% not sure how your rounding these numbers - standard convention or down to nearest 5%) or hitting on a 16, with Power attack on the result would yield .78125 rounded to 75% or hitting on a 15.

It seems to me that for a significant investment in 3 feats and 1 past life and the bases of an entire PrE (kensi) we should be seeing a significantly greater gain to our to hit scores than 2, and that Power attack (or CE for that matter) should have a significantly greater impact on out ability to hit than 1.

If you were to increase the gain from Weapon Focus, GWF, SWF, and passive fighter past lives to +2 it might close the gap to some extent, and that the kensi weapon enhancement should also be +2

Using these numbers (+2 for feats and enhancements) on the same mob this calculation would yield .99375 rounded to 95% or hits on a 19, and with power attack on yields .93125 rounded to 90% or hits on an 18.

These calculations also show that power attack may need a higher negative to hit as an effective -1 to hit does not seem significant for the +5 (or +10 to two hander’s) damage that this feat provides, an increase to the negative modifier, i know this will not be a popular choice but....

I could not find a post where these feats are discussed by a developer, and they are left out of the current thread by Eldrin. I am certainly somewhat confused by all these changes and a little clarification would be very much appreciated.