Combat Change Details

[Eladrin]

Long run, the double penalty on non-warrior classes is going to cause a boatload of problems. I entreat you.. Solve this mechanism before the stormreaver's device goes off.

Remember that there are several ways to end up with full Base Attack Bonus.

Monks: Use ki weapons.
Divine Casters: Divine Power.
Arcane Casters (except bards): Tenser's Transformation (Ha ha, just kidding! No, really, we'll make it good once Genasi has time to allocate to it.)

[Sgt_Hart]

/me quickly edits rangers into his math chart 10PRR as it stands.. ERK!

Monks: Use ki weapons.
Divine Casters: Divine Power.
Arcane Casters (except bards): Tenser's Transformation

1. No armor proficency.. ERRr.....
2. OK, it does work there, for a few minutes.
3. ERM.. doesn't grant armor proficiency so the numbers remain.

Thank the gods for that black bit Sir.

[valorik]

There was a suggestion from a player to have the Tempest shield of whirling steel provide bonuses, and I think it's a good one.

One thing you might consider is to boost the favored enemy enhancement line, giving say 5% a tier ac boost against them?

Seems like it would make sense, though may be trouble to balance, since ac focuses tank rangers would then get to focus that completely on raid bosses.

[Thayion516]

I'm actually quite happy with that, however I cring at the .75 rogue getting half of his 15. (7.5 PRR @ 20? Rounded up/down?) for wearing.. erm.. what he oughta be.

PRR = BAB if proficient might be (Dramatically)smoother. Maybe make each non-proficent kick them "Down" .25 BAB?

Some math with my suggested solution:
Fighter: Fullplate, Tower shield = 20 BAB = 20PRR - Golden.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Assuming non-proficient on both.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 5PRR - Master touch on the tower shield.
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 5PRR - Non-Prof (Both)
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Med armor-Prof
Rogue: Duelist Leathers, 2WF = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Average rogue, more a less.
FavSol: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Still worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Also worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Remains worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Tower shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - BAB Kicked down from non-proficent tower.
Ranger: Duelist Leathers, Heavy shield = 20BAB = 20PRR - I see no problem here.

Now.. that math with existing system..
Fighter: Fullplate, Tower shield = 20 BAB = 20PRR - Golden.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Assuming non-proficient on both.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Master touch on the tower shield.
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 0PRR - Non-Prof
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Med armor-Prof
Rogue: Duelist Leathers, 2WF = 15 BAB = 7.5PRR- Average rogue, more a less.
FavSol: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - half a fighter?
Cleric: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Also worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Remains worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Tower shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - No change. This is bad.
Ranger: Duelist Leathers, Heavy shield = 20BAB = 10PRR - ERK? and a half?

Not for nothing Eldrin, but a notion like that was pitched for combat mastery and had some issues. I pitched my own suggestion regarding combat training far and wide, as it took care of some of that. Looks like you all tried to adapt the former, and its glaring issues are still there even with combat training being dumpster-bound. It's a solid notion, but %of BAB really kills in this implementation. Not to mention the absence of non- /proficiency for things like shields.

Long run, the double penalty on non-warrior classes is going to cause a boatload of problems. I entreat you.. Solve this mechanism before the stormreaver's device goes off.

I Like this Better. MUCH SMOOTHER PROGRESSION. Makes alot more sense. .. How Does your calcs go for some other armor wearing classes?.. Barbarian and Bard?

[spade413]

Just give Rangers TWD for free?

[sephiroth1084]

How so? Every class gives base attack bonus. Some of the "dodgier" classes get some class based boosts, but that shouldn't force pure builds.

The problem is that, currently, we could stack 2 or 3 classes in different configurations and come out with numbers that were very close. Now, it looks like losing 6-8 levels in a class will cost you a lot more than it did for things like AC. This is partly referencing the extra bump the defender stances get at rank 3, partly the way you're looking to scale monk centered AC (2 monk splash is losing 12 AC from the monk levels, and a big chunk of AC from not having anything that gets upgraded the way that armor has gotten, for example).

So shield mastery and improved shield mastery lost their doublestrike bonus.

if it is they are no longer really worth taking.

if my DoS using heavy shield and full plate have automatic 65 PRR - around 31% mitigation

using 2 feats brings you to 80 PRR with tower shield - around 36% mitigation

so 2 feat for 5% mitigation - not really worth it in my opinion - better to spend them on cleave or toughness

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Ack! That is not correct. I'll get Eladrin to edit his post.

Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery's tool tip didn't get updated which lead to some confusion.

Shield Mastery is still granting 3% double strike, and improved is granting 5% double strike, stacking to 8% providing you use a shield.

8% double-strike for two feats is weak (compare going from TWF to ITWF, which is a 20% increase in off-hand attacks for 1 feat, which is probably the equivalent of ~15-18% double-strike for non-monks due to off-hand attacks doing less damage).
+5% physical damage resistance is much too low for 2 feats. The fact that these get comparatively weaker the higher your PRR is before you pick the feats, the worse the situation becomes. A low PRR character would gain more out of these feats than a Stalwart III or DoS III. That seems like a problem to me.

The double-strike bonuses could probably stand to be 5% for 1 feat and 10% for two at the very least, if not 7% for 1 and 15% for two.

We're still working on monks. The issue of certain builds that basically only have two or three levels of monk but operate almost completely like one in terms of armor class is proving tricky. We're not done with any of this, but we're particularly not done with monks.

One thing that probably needs to happen is Bracers of Armor (and the other items that mimic the effect) probably need to scale up a bit to cover some of the gap that comes up now with armors going up to +24 (or more for named items).

Also, on the spell front, you could probably add Greater Mage Armor and Greater Shield to the repertoire of arcane casters. By the book (The Spell Compendium), these offer +6 bonuses, instead of their lvl 1 counterparts' +4, but for DDO these could be +6, +2/x levels, and possibly include some PRR.

[sephiroth1084]

Just give Rangers TWD for free?

Rangers already get a bunch of bonus feats. They don't need another. Also, the last I read, the devs were looking to relax the feat prerequisites for PrEs with the enhancement update, meaning that rangers probably don't need to spend 3 feats on Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack, although those feats have become more attractive with these changes.

[Nyvn]

For example (and please correct me if I am wrong), the wisdom bonus to AC from MNK levels is active on a character who is uncentered and wearing armor, which is/was the basis for builds such as the Exploiter (18 RNG/1ROG/1MNK).

You only get wis to armor bonus is you're not wearing armor. You can be uncentered, but not armored. So for the exploiter or clonks you have to wear robes, and with this proposed system no PRR.

[Githrel]

Sorry if this has already been covered but will Mithril armour count as the heavier version of itself for the Physical Resistance Rating?

[Ryenji]

There was a suggestion from a player to have the Tempest shield of whirling steel provide bonuses, and I think it's a good one.

That's cool but only affects tempests. I think a dodge boost along the lines of uncanny dodge's passive element against favored enemies would fit.

Currently they have one more point of dodge than rogues and barbarians but without the massive boost from the clicky element (and with their only source coming from the three feats they spent that anyone else could take, and once again arcane archers may not have these feats at all), and low physical resistance because of their light armor despite having full base attack bonus. I don't know the math but i would bet their ac isn't very good compared to fighters and paladins with the armor ac changes, and is probably about equal to rogues who get dodge bonuses from uncanny dodge.

[waterboytkd]

I'm really waiting to see how you guys treat monks in this AC pass. My plan as of right now is that all my other toons are getting shelved when the xpack comes, and I'm just gonna focus on my two monks. So I really want to weigh in for monks.

Not sure if this helps you (the devs) out at all, but I took one of my current monks, gave her the Sun Soul set, filled in a couple other gear gaps, and then turned her into a Dex/Wis monk to max out AC. Here's what I got:

10 base
+15 from monk levels
+12 dex
+14 wis
+9 armor
+4 sup parrying
+5 protection
+5 wisdom yugo pot (figured this bad boy could be going a lot of the time)
= 77 AC
then, in Earth 4 stance (lose +4 dex, gain -2 dex)
= 88 AC
then, with Combat Expertise on
= 96-97 AC, depending on rounding.

If I were to stay Strength based, I would only really lose out on about 10 points of dex, so:
72 AC
Earth 4 stance = 82 AC
+ CE = 90-91 AC, depending on rounding.

That character would have no dodge% that I know of, and its PRR would only be 15 from earth 4.

Also note that Earth Stance has been made the AC stance, yet it gives a -2 dex penalty....

Hopefully, these numbers mean more to you than to me (not sure how dps-specced fighters fare with AC, though no matter, I imagine they have quite a bit higher PRR)

IN OTHER NEWS

I noticed that Combat Expertise is considered a Defensive Stance and that Precision is considered an Offensive Stance. One would also assume, then, that Power Attack would be an Offensive Stance, right?

Now, stances were named like this so that it was clear when a stance would turn off other stances, right? When you activate a Defensive Stance, it turns off other Defensive Stances, when you activate a Stalwart Defender Stance, it turns off other Stalwart Defender Stances.

My question: does this mean we can now have Combat Expertise and Power Attack on simultaneously? Or Combat Expertise and Precision? That could really make Combat Expertise a more worth-while feat to have.

[Aesop]

Add a Dodge Bonus for Evasion and Improved Evasion.

I know they are more about spells and reflex saves ... but the classes that get those are the Dodgy ones and a little love that way goes a long way.

maybe 3 and 7% stacking respectively

or maybe lower if necessary... or higher if desired

Aesop

[QuantumFX]

How much of this system is tied into the enhancement revamp? I know you guys had to cut that portion of the x-pack. But, it seems to be that we're only working with about 75% of the variables at the moment.

Also, do the Defender bonuses apply to Armor and Shield bonuses or specifically Armor and Shields only. This will affect the desirability of these as racial PrE's.

[Bargol]

...and where do bards figure into this updated system? Seems as usual they are forgotten.

In the existing system (live) a twf bard can get a great to-hit (with buffs) and do as good damage as any other second line melee (ranger, pally, etc.). Also in the existing system (live) they can get decent AC to mitigate incoming damage.

However, it looks like in this proposed system they get very little.

Also what about splashed builds like the popular 16/2/2 spilt.....usually 2 levels of rogue for evasion and traps.....light armor gives so very little.

[LeLoric]

There was a suggestion from a player to have the Tempest shield of whirling steel provide bonuses, and I think it's a good one.

It's a good idea but not all rangers are tempest.

[Faent]

Much more attention needs to be paid to folks who splash monk to pick up the WIS-to-AC bonus. These toons cannot use your shiny new armor, and they cannot use your shiny new shields. Their AC is actually *going down* because you are removing AC bonuses from all the AC gear they have ground out (and converting it to some unspecified amount of dodge bonus). They will have almost no PRR. Do you intend to maintain the viability of this splash, or do you want to see it go away?

[PopeJual]

Lesser Mountain Stance Martial Arts Stance: The unyielding mountain stance focuses on endurance and defense. Lesser Mountain Stance grants +2 Constitution, a 5% boost to AC, 3 physical resistance, and a +25% Insight bonus to melee threat generation, at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -10% movement speed. While in Lesser Mountain Stance, you gain 'Get Hit Effect: Gain 1 ki.'

Does the 5% boost to AC (and other similar percentage bonuses to AC) add 5% to the numeric value of your AC or does it subtract directly from the percent chance that the monster has to hit you?

Example using easy numbers:
You have an AC of 50 and you are fighting an enemy that has a To Hit of 50.
Without the 5% AC bonus, you have
(Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2)
(50+10.5)/(50*2) = 60.5% chance to be hit

Does this
a) change your AC to 52.5 so that you have (50+10.5)/(52.5*2) = 57.6% chance to be hit

b) or does it subtract from the enemy's chance to hit after the calculation so that you have (50+10.5) / (50*2) = 60.5% chance to hit turning directly into a 55.5% chance to hit?
In other words, does it multiply your AC or does it subtract from the chance to be hit?
I'm asking because of the difference between +1 To Hit vs. +5% To Hit that I have seen references to where the +5% adding directly to the To Hit is more powerful than a +1 on your To Hit score. In particular, stacking bonuses of this type are more useful than stacking "+1"s to your To Hit score because the +5% To Hit bonuses don't suffer from diminishing returns in the same way.

[dejafu]

...and where do bards figure into this updated system? Seems as usual they are forgotten.

Time to revisit Ironskin Chant. Have it grant a flat increase in Armor Class and PRR to party members, and a percentage increase in Armor Class and PRR to the bard him/herself (as an incentive to actually PLAY a bard rather than wait for one to come around). Increase each of these at each tier of the PrE.

It doesn't help out non-Warchanters, so obviously I'd like to see some buffs to the other PrE's as well, but it's a start.

As for buffing Monks: I keep seeing the word "evasive" as a description for their defensive style. Well, why not grant an increase dodge % with the Evasion and Improved Evasion feats? This helps out Rogues and Rangers as well, and gives a little something extra for Monk and Rogue splashes that go in at least two levels.

[donblas]

Looking at these threads, it seems that people are suggesting a large number of tweaks to "fix" the new AC system that was introduced to "fix" AC at high level. But of course the new system and all the tweaks will affect all levels.

It seems a lot of work will be needed to sort all this out. Wouldn't it have been better to have a system that gradually kicked in at higher levels so that players and toons at lower levels would not have seen any change? In that case any problems in the new system could have been sorted out over time leaving the majority of toons and players to play this great game without all this hassle.

[PopeJual]

Making an additional post because this is a very different concern from my last post.


Players will hit significantly less often in the new system than in the current system. That isn't automatically a bad thing as long as appropriate adjustments are made to enemy HP (and it might even possibly turn out that 0% change is the appropriate adjustment - I don't know yet). But there are many abilities that count on a "hit on 2+" for their balance.

If a Touch of Death doesn't land because the attack missed, you will be sad, but you can still keep fighting with essentially the same effectiveness - you just missed out on some raw damage. But if you miss an Improved Sunder, you now will have a serious chance of seeing the entire stack go away before you get another Improved Sunder attempt. When you only miss on a 1 (i.e. pretty much all end game content for pretty much every players who takes end game content seriously), that's not a big deal. Every once in a while, you will lose your stack of Improved Sunders and have to start again.

But if you are missing 30% of the time, a full stack of Improved Sunder is far less likely to happen with a single player throwing out Improved Sunder attacks against an enemy. You
have a significant chance of seeing the entire stack of effects disappear in the middle of a fight even if you have a pretty good To Hit value.

With the changes coming that will reduce the percent of hits that a player lands on an enemy, stacking effects that last for "x" seconds should probably be stretched out to 1.5*x or possibly more. Destruction and Improved Destruction duration might be lengthened to 1 minute instead of their current 20 seconds. Cursespewing/Improved Cursespewing are probably fine. Shattermantle/Improved Shattermantle might be stretched out to 15 seconds instead of their current 9. And Improved Sunder in particular should probably be stretched out to at least 35 seconds if you want it to have effectiveness that is similar to what we enjoy today.



(Also, while you are thinking about effects like Destruction and Improved Destruction, I would like to mention that Cannith crafted weapon effects for Improved Destruction isn't working correctly. Improved Destruction is supposed to give -2AC/-2% fortification stacking up to 4 times, but it is only giving -1/-1% and stacking with regular Destruction instead. That means you need Cannith crafted Destruction + Improved Destruction together to make the same effect as lootgen Improved Destruction.)