Combat Change Details

[Noctus]

When you made your original SD pass last year, you did a great job by evening out the benefits, not making anything too front-loaded or back-loaded (STR and CON bonuses, maximum hit points bonus, saves bonus, threat bonus all increase linearly).

You added the PRR and the AC bonuses to this PrE and you went back to the old way of doing PrE bonuses... It goes 10%, 20%, 40% for AC bonuses, and 10, 25, 45 for PRR...

You've backloaded the Stalwart Defender PrE, making 18 levels of fighter much stronger than 12 levels of fighter... The 12/x fighter builds will not have 2/3 the defensive power of the 18, but half the power instead.

I think this is a mistake. I think a better balance would be a 15%, 30%, 45% for AC and a 15, 30, 45 for PRR.

I think you guys are doing a great job with the big picture... and I definitely appreciate all the back and forth and info we're getting.

I concure with Thrudh.

The gain-curve should best be linear. When it is you can go by fluff and personal preference when deciding how and if you want to customise your character, instead of being pushed into one direction or the other by game mechanics.

Meaningful choices and relevant character customisation options are sone of the biggest factors that sets DDO apart from the pletora of other MMOs out there. If the current backloaded numbers would go live you would have created another trap-option.

[Selchin]

guys, you should remember than when the enhancements upgrade comes you will be able to combine ultimate earth stance and stalwart defender at the same time.

You might want to note that the stalwart defender stances only increase AC "from armor and shields", which is not going to be much, if any, on a centered monk build. The physical resistance would still be helpful, but the armor % boost would not.

[Ape_Man]

You might want to note that the stalwart defender stances only increase AC "from armor and shields", which is not going to be much, if any, on a centered monk build. The physical resistance would still be helpful, but the armor % boost would not.

That's terrible, really terrible if that's the case and not just worded funny.

[donblas]

1. Rangers are on the short end of this stick. They are getting no dodge bonuses or physical resistance and are generally by their nature light armor wearers. Nor do any of their bonus feats or prestige enhancements offer much relief. .

And if you splash monk into ranger then no armor at all, so no benefit from all Torc's work on new armor types.

Nevermind, I'm sure they already thought of this in the lengthy development and testing of this new AC system and just missed it out of the explanation.

[Torc]

Just by comparision, a monk can no longer reach the high AC of fighters / paladins and thats ok.

But for an evasive class to start out with less of a dodge bonus than a rogue / barbarian just seems, well, not evasive at all.

So monks will end up with less dodge % than rogues / barbarians, less AC and less PRR than fighters / paladins.

Where does this leave them in the scheme of things and what is their intended place in said scheme?

We're still working on monks. The issue of certain builds that basically only have two or three levels of monk but operate almost completely like one in terms of armor class is proving tricky. We're not done with any of this, but we're particularly not done with monks.

[Ape_Man]

We're still working on monks. The issue of certain builds that basically only have two or three levels of monk but operate almost completely like one in terms of armor class is proving tricky. We're not done with any of this, but we're particularly not done with monks.

Defined "tricky." Let us know what vexes you and we might be able to help you get un-vexed.

[tharveysinjin]

It should be 10%.


Monks that are out of earth stance will still have a decent armor class and dodge, being more of an evasion style character than taking the hits. Their improved healing amplification gives them a different way of increasing their overall "effecting hit points" if they have healing abilities.

I'll be watching monks and monk splashes very closely, they're my primary "worry" with the current numbers. Adjustments will be made as needed.

I just TR'd my monk and took him up 20 levels specced for dex with air stance. The changes don't help my build at all. Will you provide those of us who would like it a free TR into a different race and allow us to re-spec our 20 levels?

[Torc]

Wait . . . what? 5% doubletrike even when you ARE NOT using a shield?

No shield no service.

[Ape_Man]

No shield no service.

Thanks, I knew I had to be reading that wrong.

[Grailhawk]

Defined "tricky." Let us know what vexes you and we might be able to help you get un-vexed.

QTF

Please let the community help you with this. To make it clear the problem is that a large percentage (extreamly large I would say on the order of +90%) of the play base that cares about defense has monk splash now the changes as they stand now nerf there defense to the stone age.

[Masadique]

That's terrible, really terrible if that's the case and not just worded funny.

That would prevent them from being, what did you say? The only viable tank. So which will it be? Over powered or worthless... I think an Earth stance monk with SD III will be very strong. With the AC multiplier, it would be stupid strong. I really hope they go with underpowered vs overpowered so I can play my build in peace without having to think of myself as a min/maxxer.

Either way, this is likely what my build will be in the expansion since monk fighter is just too fun.

[Primalhowl]

We're still working on monks. The issue of certain builds that basically only have two or three levels of monk but operate almost completely like one in terms of armor class is proving tricky. We're not done with any of this, but we're particularly not done with monks.

I would argue that if someone has only splashed a few levels of a class, they should only get a limited bonus for that splash. On live, a 2 level splash of monk gives a large number of benefits that allow a player to act/play like a monk when their primary class is something completely different. For example (and please correct me if I am wrong), the wisdom bonus to AC from MNK levels is active on a character who is uncentered and wearing armor, which is/was the basis for builds such as the Exploiter (18 RNG/1ROG/1MNK).

Why should an 18 XXX/2 MNK deserve to operate the same as a 20 MNK in terms of armor class? That is like saying that an amateur cellist who has an MBA and works as a banker by day should be able to perform at the same level as Yo Yo Ma.

My fear is that if there is too much tweaking to satisfy the MNK 2 splash, then it becomes a "must have" and we fall back into the position where gish builds are always preferable to pure builds...

[donblas]

I would argue that if someone has only splashed a few levels of a class, they should only get a limited bonus for that splash. ...

Yay!! Deleting all my toons with monk splash will certainly free up some character slots! Maybe I'll get a refund on the DDO points I spent on monk as I won't use that class anymore. OOh and a refund on those free character slots too! That would be awesome!

More exclamation marks!!!!!!!

Maybe toons that splash fighter should only get 5% of proficiency with martial weapons, and heavy armor and shields.

Maybe rogue splashes should only disable traps 5% of the time.

This could be a whole new direction for character building.

[WurmBurned]

Am I understanding this correctly?

Situation 1:
-An enemy with an 110 attack score would count as having 120.5 since the d20 roll is treated as an average here.
-The player is a leve18 Fighter
-The player gets a total of 100 AC and 50 of that comes from his armor and shield bonus.
-SD III grants the player an extra 20 AC since 50*0.4 is 20.
-CE should grant a bonus of 10 AC since 100*0.1 is 10 and this will come at the cost -5 attack for the fighter.
-The player now has a total of 130 AC so far.

Monster’s Attack Average/2*Player’s AC = an 46% chance for the player to be hit.


Situation 2:
-An enemy with an 110 attack score would count as having 120.5 since the d20 roll is treated as an average here.
-The player has 15 paladin levels and 3 in some other class.
-The player gets a total of 100 AC and 50 of that comes from his armor and shield bonus.
-DoS II grants the player 10 AC since 50*0.2 is 10.
-CE should grant the same bonus of 10AC, but the caster level penalty means the paladin is getting a -6 to attack and a -1 to damge from casting DF as if he was lvl10.
-The player now has 120 AC so far.

Monster’s Attack Average/2*Player’s AC = 50% chance for the player to be hit.

Situation 3:
-All attack and AC scores are doubled before stances and the d20 average.
-Player 1 has 260 AC.
-Player 2 has 240 AC.
-The monster has an average attack score of 230.5

Monster’s Attack Average/2*Player’s AC = 44% chance for the fighter to be hit.
Monster’s Attack Average/2*Player’s AC = 48% chance for the hybrid to be hit.

[bbqzor]

I'm kind of doing really general summaries here to avoid quoting and re-quoting your entire post Eladrin, so please bear with me.

Monster Attack and Grazing formulas, and raw Player AC values

This looks fine, but I am a bit concerned about the loss of "Combat Training". Basically, it took about 20-30ish AC away from "tanks", which makes them hit something like 5-10% (in absolute values, so something like 20% in relative values) than they were in the previous version. Was there a reasoning behind this? Frankly the previous numbers felt pretty right, not sure lowering them was good. Aiming around 50% hits on a tank felt more right than 60%, as one ballparked example. AC really ought to block at least half your attacks to feel like its doing something in game; being hit over half the time doesn't really feel like tanking, even with other mitigating factors in there. Characters/builds/classes/destines which focus on getting that high AC number ought to maintain at least a 50% miss chance from it, I should think. Thoughts?

PRR Formulas, and all the things that add to it

The Armor PRR bonuses now feel about right. There is sufficient reason to choose between the different categories for different situations.

Conversely, the shield bonuses now feel pretty weak. Take a generic Defender build, with 20 from armor and 45 from stance they're at about 30% PRR. For two feats (three for non fighters) to use a Tower Shield (with its own limitations on attack, dex to ac, etc) that goes up to 38% PRR. If you cut it down to a heavy shield (to avoid spending a feat on a paladin, or losing attack, or what not) its only 36% PRR. And thats assuming the two shield feat values stack (ie, tower is 10 plus 15, not 10 and then 5 more up to 15). It really ought to be more than 3-4% for a feat, there are just too many valuable feats at that ratio. Consider upping them to maybe 5% per feat on a typical build, at least.

Likewise, for monks, Ultimate Earth Stance yields 15 PRR? At least make it 5 per level so they can get up to 10% PRR at the top. Put another way, a level 20 standing in heavy armor is more mitigation-y than an Ultimate Earth Stance monk. In fact, a Monk standing in heavy armor would get the same PRR (if he were proficient, albeit he would be uncentered). Having this stance match armor doesn't really work, since they don't have anything else to stack onto it. This is the thing which would stack onto it, so need to aim a little higher (with the obvious trade off being they have to afford and enter this stance to use any of it, rather than having the armor all the times with this stacked some of the time as other classes would function).

Dodge Formulas, and all the things that add to it

This looks about right. Having Improved Uncanny hit 50% touches on what I mentioned earlier about AC needing to aim for 50%, it matches Displace at 50%, etc... going past 50% was probably too good.

Also, for Barbs and Rogues gaining Dodge, its the same at those levels as it would be from Uncanny I presume, so thats fine. I do like the idea of linking it to the Uncanny feat (ie, as a passive, on top of the active) if only because, down the road, it might be possible for it to stack as it does in PnP. This means a multi-class Barbarin/Rogue may be able to combine Uncanny advances to get Improved Uncanny, which makes tying the progression into that benefit more appealing. Yes, I understand it won't work that way now, but it looks like a better setup to have going into the future for possibilities later.

And again, Monks look bad. No dodge at all. Not looking good for them.

Feat and Enhancement changes

These are mostly good. Few quick comments: Ranger/Tempest should get a bonus for their shield bonus, which I saw you mention. Do Druids still get any bonuses for their stuff? Why was Combat Expertise reduced from 15%? Combined with the loss of combat training, this takes a huge chunk of AC away from the top end, again pushing AC towards marginal. Power Attack is no longer on the list, whats up with it? And AC Action boosts really need to be a bit larger. Plus 20 is not really going to be a noticeable boost in a 20 second window. When you run a boost, its because you need to see some tangible difference for a short time, and going from say 60% hit to 50% hit isn't going to be that. Against a 114 attack mob, on a tank with 125 ac, the boost takes you from 50% hits to 43% hits, not really something you'll care about or notice. Aim for at least 10% less IMHO, the only people really using these are going to be tanks, it needs to work well for them.

Player Attack and To-Hit Changes

Uuuggghhh these still stink. Players will hit less, period. Thats not only a nerf to DPS, its a nerf to things like Quivering Palm, Stunning Fist, Touch of Death, Assassinate, Smite, Trip, etc... anything which functions on only one swing.

Before we could ensure the ability was at least going to force a save 95% of the time. Now its more like 80% even under good conditions, meaning they're all that much less valuable. Let alone in bad conditions, where you won't hardly even get to 70%.

Missing is no fun, and it makes our special melee abilities (that function "on the next attack") less and less useful. Please strongly consider adding more of a bonus for players. Maybe add 1/4 your BAB too for how martially trained you are, or something. Or consider giving anything thats "on the next attack" a 5-10% "Heroic Cinematic Attack Bonus" or something so the special stuff is at least still likely to land.

I envision a future where Monks can no longer get AC, get Mitigation, never got Dodge, and only land their Martial Arts stuff 3/4ths the time instead of 95%. And where Rogues can't get their Assassinate DC up enough to matter, let alone hit with it now. And where Tanks can finally tank, but still get hit over half the time, making playing one feel like you're still a punching bag. And you know what, that sounds like sad pandas. This is (generally) a move in the right direction, but it needs some serious cleanup. The Math is (or in some cases was) going the right direction, but it needs tuning so the feel while playing it still feels fun (ie, significant). Thanks.

[Sgt_Hart]

If you are proficient in your armor:
Heavy Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus.
Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus.
Light Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus.

I'm actually quite happy with that, however I cring at the .75 rogue getting half of his 15. (7.5 PRR @ 20? Rounded up/down?) for wearing.. erm.. what he oughta be.

PRR = BAB if proficient might be (Dramatically)smoother. Maybe make each non-proficent kick them "Down" .25 BAB?

Some math with my suggested solution:
Fighter: Fullplate, Tower shield = 20 BAB = 20PRR - Golden.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Assuming non-proficient on both.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 5PRR - Master touch on the tower shield.
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 5PRR - Non-Prof (Both)
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Med armor-Prof
Rogue: Duelist Leathers, 2WF = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Average rogue, more a less.
FavSol: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Still worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Also worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 15PRR - Remains worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Tower shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - BAB Kicked down from non-proficent tower.
Ranger: Duelist Leathers, Heavy shield = 20BAB = 20PRR - I see no problem here.

Now.. that math with existing system..
Fighter: Fullplate, Tower shield = 20 BAB = 20PRR - Golden.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Assuming non-proficient on both.
Wizard: Fullplate, Tower shield = 10 BAB = 0PRR - Master touch on the tower shield.
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 0PRR - Non-Prof
Rogue: Cav plate, Heavy sheild = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Med armor-Prof
Rogue: Duelist Leathers, 2WF = 15 BAB = 7.5PRR- Average rogue, more a less.
FavSol: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - half a fighter?
Cleric: Cav plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Also worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Heavy shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - Remains worse than a fighter.
Cleric: Mournlode plate, Tower shield = 15 BAB = 10PRR - No change. This is bad.
Ranger: Duelist Leathers, Heavy shield = 20BAB = 10PRR - ERK? and a half?

Not for nothing Eldrin, but a notion like that was pitched for combat mastery and had some issues. I pitched my own suggestion regarding combat training far and wide, as it took care of some of that. Looks like you all tried to adapt the former, and its glaring issues are still there even with combat training being dumpster-bound. It's a solid notion, but %of BAB really kills in this implementation. Not to mention the absence of non- /proficiency for things like shields.

Long run, the double penalty on non-warrior classes is going to cause a boatload of problems. I entreat you.. Solve this mechanism before the stormreaver's device goes off.

[flaggson]

Yay!! Deleting all my toons with monk splash will certainly free up some character slots! Maybe I'll get a refund on the DDO points I spent on monk as I won't use that class anymore. OOh and a refund on those free character slots too! That would be awesome!

More exclamation marks!!!!!!!

Maybe toons that splash fighter should only get 5% of proficiency with martial weapons, and heavy armor and shields.

Maybe rogue splashes should only disable traps 5% of the time.

This could be a whole new direction for character building.

exactly... +1 to you for pointing out the .. what should be... obvious

[valorik]

Looking this over, it seems like rangers get the worst of the deal of all melees (clerics, fvs, bards... etc still not intended to bother with defense?). It seems like everyone else gets a boost of some form, but rangers are stuck exactly where they are? Any plans to help them out? In the previous incarnation they were getting boosted the same amount as fighters and paladins, which was great, because they'd be % wise just as far behind them as they are now, given that they have no defensive PrE, or heavy armor, and shields don't work with either twf or bows.

[Eladrin]

Looking this over, it seems like rangers get the worst of the deal of all melees (clerics, fvs, bards... etc still not intended to bother with defense?). It seems like everyone else gets a boost of some form, but rangers are stuck exactly where they are? Any plans to help them out? In the previous incarnation they were getting boosted the same amount as fighters and paladins, which was great, because they'd be % wise just as far behind them as they are now, given that they have no defensive PrE, or heavy armor, and shields don't work with either twf or bows.

There was a suggestion from a player to have the Tempest shield of whirling steel provide bonuses, and I think it's a good one.

[~Glouscester]

Here’s how I see it: ( I would prefer to stay away from % bonuses, but used them since this new system is going that way)

All the melee classes but barbs should have AC. Some get it from being like Neo and avoiding being hit and some get it from being walking tanks.

Classes that will mitigate damage with AC and PRR: Fighters and Paladins

They are traditional tanks that will probably mainly look for heavy armor and shields. Their enhancement lines are pretty much set up to help them down this path.

+5% bonus to AC each level if wearing medium or greater armor(would not get stacking ac bonuses from medium armor classes if wearing heavy armor) Slightly discourages light ac splashes, but you would get a bonus to dodge from a 2 or 6 splash that might make up for the 30% ac bonus you lose.

+2% bonus to PRR each level if wearing medium or greater armor

Classes that will mitigate damage with AC and dodge: Monks, Rangers, and rogues

With some changes to progression (ie, these classes gaining +1 dodge at certain level tiers) you could make splashes desirable and give a decent capstone to make pure desirable. Most of these guys will wear robes/light armor.

+5% bonus to AC each level if wearing medium or less armor (should get a stacking bonus of ac from fighter and paladin splashes)

Monks, Rogues, Rangers: +1 dodge at 2, 4, 6
+2 dodge at 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 for a total of +15 dodge from levels.
+5 dodge at level 20. Makes going 20 worth something.

Classes that will mitigate damage with HP, dodge, and healing amp: Barbs

Same goes here. They already get the HP. They wear light/medium armor. I actually think they should get natural PRR. They should be able to shrug off blows that would fell normal men. That is just me.

They shouldn’t be dodging anything. Why do barbs get dodge?

+5 PRR at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 = 50 PRR if pure. This makes barb a great splash class for tanks and great as a pure.


I think the real problems are:

DR and PRR – What is the difference? Why are you instituting a new % based, diminishing return system that mimics a system already in place? Why not just add DR to shields and armor and make it DR/armor? It just seems confusing to add a whole new, non-D&D thing.

What is the difference between AC and dodge? I always thought AC meant not getting hit? Isn’t that what dodge is? Why have two different systems to do this?