Combat Change Details

[psychokitten]

Along with this grant a dodge % at the same levels as rogues / barbarians plus level 18 as well for a total of 7%, 1% over rogues / barbarians.

This is a good start, though 7% is still too low considering the numbers rogues and barbs can get in short bursts.

Perhaps a ki clickie that's costly, but offers a semi perma amount of dodge (+25%?).

Maybe even give +1% dodge for each rank of Clever Monkey.

[maximadan]

So shield mastery and improved shield mastery lost their doublestrike bonus.

if it is they are no longer really worth taking.

if my DoS using heavy shield and full plate have automatic 65 PRR - around 31% mitigation

using 2 feats brings you to 80 PRR with tower shield - around 36% mitigation

so 2 feat for 5% mitigation - not really worth it in my opinion - better to spend them on cleave or toughness

[krogyy]

i am still concerned about player's to-hit.

toons that can hit on a 2 vs certain foes will miss more often vs the same AC once the update goes live. it is truly a nerf to the effectiveness of melee, especially to those classes with lowish to-hit like rangers or rogues.

[Thrudh]

How so? Every class gives base attack bonus. Some of the "dodgier" classes get some class based boosts, but that shouldn't force pure builds.

Stalwart Defender: Defensive Stance You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +10% maximum hit points, a +1 Competence bonus on all saves, 10 physical resistance, and a 10% bonus to Armor Class from armor and shields. You also gain a 25% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Stalwart Defender II: Improved Defensive Stance You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +15% maximum hit points, a +2 Competence bonus on all saves, 25 physical resistance, and a 20% bonus to Armor Class from armor and shields. You also gain a 50% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

Stalwart Defender III: Superior Defensive Stance You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Competence bonus on all saves, 45 physical resistance, and a 40% bonus to Armor Class from armor and shields. You also gain a 75% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

When you made your original SD pass last year, you did a great job by evening out the benefits, not making anything too front-loaded or back-loaded (STR and CON bonuses, maximum hit points bonus, saves bonus, threat bonus all increase linearly).

You added the PRR and the AC bonuses to this PrE and you went back to the old way of doing PrE bonuses... It goes 10%, 20%, 40% for AC bonuses, and 10, 25, 45 for PRR...

You've backloaded the Stalwart Defender PrE, making 18 levels of fighter much stronger than 12 levels of fighter... The 12/x fighter builds will not have 2/3 the defensive power of the 18, but half the power instead.

I think this is a mistake. I think a better balance would be a 15%, 30%, 45% for AC and a 15, 30, 45 for PRR.

I think you guys are doing a great job with the big picture... and I definitely appreciate all the back and forth and info we're getting.

[Avidus]

I need to make sure that it's true first.

Just by comparision, a monk can no longer reach the high AC of fighters / paladins and thats ok.

But for an evasive class to start out with less of a dodge bonus than a rogue / barbarian just seems, well, not evasive at all.

So monks will end up with less dodge % than rogues / barbarians, less AC and less PRR than fighters / paladins.

Where does this leave them in the scheme of things and what is their intended place in said scheme?

[krogyy]

Just by comparision, a monk can no longer reach the high AC of fighters / paladins and thats ok.

But for an evasive class to start out with less of a dodge bonus than a rogue / barbarian just seems, well, not evasive at all.

So monks will end up with less dodge % than rogues / barbarians, less AC and less PRR than fighters / paladins.

Where does this leave them in the scheme of things and what is their intended place in said scheme?

guys, you should remember than when the enhancements upgrade comes you will be able to combine ultimate earth stance and stalwart defender at the same time.

[fullpozzy]

What is only the shield mastery feats adding to personal resistances? What about the other shield feats or is this were the shield dr comes into play?

[Ape_Man]

guys, you should remember than when the enhancements upgrade comes you will be able to combine ultimate earth stance and stalwart defender at the same time.

If that stack I'll be amazed.

[Mahatu]

Will the max dex bonus for the Mithral Body feat scale as one levels up? The feat was originally designed to give a warforged character the equivalent of a mithral breastplate. With this update it seems that the armor class goes up at the correct rate for a breastplate (judging by the Ancient Gemstone which gives 14 AC with Mithral Body at minimum level 20) but there is no indication that the max dex will scale in a similar manner (should be 8 at level 20, 6 base and 2 for being made of mithral).

Is this designed so that it will scale, or will something else come into play to even things out?

[Hokiewa]

guys, you should remember than when the enhancements upgrade comes you will be able to combine ultimate earth stance and stalwart defender at the same time.

If it stacks...regardless, that simply pigeonholes monks into earth stance for the majority of time.

[Avidus]

guys, you should remember than when the enhancements upgrade comes you will be able to combine ultimate earth stance and stalwart defender at the same time.

Yes that is ture and will help monk 'tanks' a great deal.
But what about those races that don't get stalwart as their racial PrE, like halfling, drow, or elf?
On the other hand those fighters could get tempest or kensaii as well. The enhancement pass could make things better for everyone.
My concern is the base (i.e. a class with no PrE) monk class at the moment.

What about all the other monks that don't run earth stance and want to be halfing/drow?
These monks should be evasive as well. I would venture to say a base monk should be more evasive than a base rogue or barbarian.

[Masadique]

If it stacks...regardless, that simply pigeonholes monks into earth stance for the majority of time.

SD and Earth stance stack right now. I wouldn't see them unstacking in the future.

[Torc]

So shield mastery and improved shield mastery lost their doublestrike bonus.

if it is they are no longer really worth taking.

if my DoS using heavy shield and full plate have automatic 65 PRR - around 31% mitigation

using 2 feats brings you to 80 PRR with tower shield - around 36% mitigation

so 2 feat for 5% mitigation - not really worth it in my opinion - better to spend them on cleave or toughness

Ack! That is not correct. I'll get Eladrin to edit his post.

Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery's tool tip didn't get updated which lead to some confusion.

Shield Mastery is still granting 3% double strike, and improved is granting 5% double strike, stacking to 8% providing you use a shield.

[Ape_Man]

SD and Earth stance stack right now. I wouldn't see them unstacking in the future.

You sure about that? On live they do different things, there's no % damage mitigation from stalwart and we really don't know how threat multipliers stack.

I wouldn't expect a dev answer on this either as this is probably one of those things that they are mulling over that lead to the enhancements pass delay.

That said . . . if it DOES stack there'd be little point in playing any melee other than an SDIII Earth-stance Monk.

[orakio]

Edit: Ninja'd by Torc. nevermind

[Ape_Man]

Shield Mastery is still granting 3% double strike, and improved is granting 5% double strike, stacking to 8% providing you use a shield.

Wait . . . what? 5% doubletrike even when you ARE NOT using a shield?

[YanPL]

I like how opening post marks which stance is defensive stance and which one is offensive one. Does that mean we'll be able to "stack" stances of different types?

In PnP character who had Combat Expertise AND Power Attack feats, could use both of those at the same time. Is that an option under current conditions? Could it be given some thought?

Also, I didn't see a mention of "Superior defensive stances" granting immunity to Rage effects - will Stalwarts/Defenders of Siberys still be penalized by this, or not? If we consider how madstone rage grants +2 str/+4 con, Primal Scream grants up to +5 str/+5 con - and those two buffs stack WITHOUT giving penalties to AC, defender stances are hardly a gain. Also, Bard's Inspire Excellence epic feat grants Competence bonus to stats - which again, hurts Defenders by stacking issues.

[Gimpinator]

The mitigation from earth stance far outweighs the benefits of any other monk stance, especially water. I was really liking Water since the prior change to monk stances.

Additionally, when can we expect the Dodge% value to be included on our character sheet?

[Impaqt]

When you made your original SD pass last year, you did a great job by evening out the benefits, not making anything too front-loaded or back-loaded (STR and CON bonuses, maximum hit points bonus, saves bonus, threat bonus all increase linearly).

You added the PRR and the AC bonuses to this PrE and you went back to the old way of doing PrE bonuses... It goes 10%, 20%, 40% for AC bonuses, and 10, 25, 45 for PRR...

You've backloaded the Stalwart Defender PrE, making 18 levels of fighter much stronger than 12 levels of fighter... The 12/x fighter builds will not have 2/3 the defensive power of the 18, but half the power instead.

I think this is a mistake. I think a better balance would be a 15%, 30%, 45% for AC and a 15, 30, 45 for PRR.

I think you guys are doing a great job with the big picture... and I definitely appreciate all the back and forth and info we're getting.

+1

I think ALL PrE's should perform this way. currently, they are all over the map. Linear boosts work well for Pure class and do not discourage multiclassing.

[sigtrent]

1. Rangers are on the short end of this stick. They are getting no dodge bonuses or physical resistance and are generally by their nature light armor wearers. Nor do any of their bonus feats or prestige enhancements offer much relief. I feel they should get a dodge system like Rogues and Barbarians.

2. I think the class based dodge bonuses are too low and should be 2-3% at each bump. There should however be some kind of cap on dodge. A class based on dodging should feel better served than having a blur clicky. (I know they stack etc.. but the perception is its not all that exciting, 6% at level 20 doesn't feel like any kind of significant boon)

3. Kudos on making precision kind of useful.

4. Any plans for power attack, its noticeably missing from the stance list.