Combat Change Details

[Dandonk]

They got the feedback they wanted, and adjusted some parts of the defensive pass already

This is true.

They got a few of the comments they wanted to hear, and now ignore the rest of us saying things they don't want to hear. Gogo feedback?

[Riggs]

The inital thread had a finality about it that other then perhaps for monks and monk splashes there would not be anymore changes. Whether the devs are even reading this at this point is a question...

What is sad is the previous year of players begging for a 'lets talk AC' thread, including various people posting their own version to try and jump start it.

Then long, long after 'hey here is this massive change - we can tweak a couple numbers - but since it is so close to the release date it is not going to change significantly'.

Sadly it is a trend going on for years now - Turbine makes 50 great changes, adds new cool stuff - and then does something really big that boggles everyone's minds and vaporizes all that warm happiness.

[Moltier]

Because he shines in a domain that represents about 0.01% of the overall DDO population ? you're free to do so. But you might acknowledge that if devs took only 0.01% of the overall feedback as guiderules for future developments, servers would go down in under a year.



It's getting better, now what do you think your theoretical caster has dumped to achieve those numbers ? That's called the 'opportunity cost' in general terms. A good start would prolly be to determine what negative impact would 28 dex have on a pure caster build (+9 dex mod, per your breakdown).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

14base DEX (so just 16 starting CON instead of 18), 2tome, 2ship, 6item, 1litany, 1exceptional, 2yugo. So -25hp, thats the negative... As a bonus, it frees up a feat you can spend for shields.

I would still have ~60INT on my wizzy and almost maxed DCs, spell pen.
What you dont understand is, if a wizard can do this without sacrificing much, then anyone can do it.

I already made a huge post about how AC will work. Check it out and see how this system will work for different AC numbers vs different to hit numbers.

Also, if you think the devs took 0.01% overall feedback, you may want to check this and the other official AC threads. We showed them multiple times the problems of the system, yet almost nothing changed since beta1.
So i say its less then 0.01%, unlike the destinys, where communication isnt one sided.
Problem is, it will affect 100% of the population, unlike destinys...

[Faent]

The only official response you're gonna get with your hate is a mod locking the thread.

So far they might as well have locked the thread after the first post. They obviously didn't want to talk about anything.

[Malky]

-25hp, thats the negative...

Not quite, you have to slot +6 dex somewhere, and +1 exc. dex when a caster atm doesn't need dex for reflex save most of the time. Your save without insightful reflex is gonna be terrible, another opportunity cost here.

Insight AC on a caster, where do you get that from ? does it conflict with another caster item in that slot ?

Gearing a good caster is already tedious enough when you already have torc that perma-camp the neck slot, +45hp shroud item, +150 sp + conc/opp shroud item, tod ring, either 2-3 items with greater focuses or a quarterstaff with greater spell mastery that takes both hands, spell pen IX, plus the usual heavy fort, toughness, GFL/SFL. On a WF AM the second ring slot is camped by omniscience to keep 100% fort while using yugo int pots... changing anything to a gearset to include +6 dex & +1 exc. dex has drawbacks, i.e. another opportunity cost.

Also, if you think the devs took 0.01% overall feedback, you may want to check this and the other official AC threads. We showed them multiple times the problems of the system, yet almost nothing changed since beta1.

No: you are the 0.01%, devs took feedback from a much larger pool. This includes years of players complaining on forums about how useless AC was in epics.

If almost nothing changed, that's maybe because what you see as 'problems' are WAI.

So far they might as well have locked the thread after the first post. They obviously didn't want to talk about anything.

Devs not posting anything here doesn't imply that they dont read the comments.
As long as the posts keep being constructive they'll read, but once it wanders in the useless hate posts territory it's only a waste of time for devs, and the thread may deserve a mod lock in such case.

[kraaal]

I haven't seen hate in this thread, just a lot of people voicing concerns.
I doubt much will change with this release but hopefully there is room to adjust this system substantially in the future when they see feedback when the system is live.
The one thing you have to hand it to turbine they are not afraid to change sh&t.

[donblas]

So far they might as well have locked the thread after the first post. They obviously didn't want to talk about anything.

I kind of sympathise with the devs (a little).

I think one of the problems is that the combat system is at the root of a lot of stuff. Hitting and being hit by monsters is pretty much the core of the game.

They've hastily improvised (Torc's word) a combat system that pretty much affects everything in the game. If they make any change they have to look at everything else in the game and expansion (eg Epic Destinies) to see how that change affects everything else, and then adjust everything that is affected.

They've run out of time, so it's pretty much too late to change the system (see Feather of Sun's comment about not being able to take account of the material of armor, eg mithral, because it was too late), even if it was proven to break a lot of builds, produce some wierd results and be pretty hard for players to understand.

An improvised system was not what we needed to fix problems with AC, but I believe we are stuck with it. And I don't think the devs really want to come here and tell us that.

[Ape_Man]

Actually the devs should take advice from people in the area they have specialised in, otherwise you get people making claims they have no idea about.

In this thread? Shirley you jest!

[Ape_Man]

This is true.

They got a few of the comments they wanted to hear, and now ignore the rest of us saying things they don't want to hear. Gogo feedback?

That's so true . . . "they got the feedback they wanted" is 100% the case.

Just wait until the general population gets a hold of this.

With that said it doesn't suck as much as many of us thought it would when we first saw it. The sad thing is with a few minor tweaks it doesn't have to suck at all.

[donblas]

Ape_Man:

"Personal D0000M! level = 47%"

Is your Dooooooooooom level going down???

If so, you, sir, are no real merchant of dooooommm and should be ashamed of yourself! It should be rising exponentially until June 25.

[Ape_Man]

Ape_Man:

"Personal D0000M! level = 47%"

Is your Dooooooooooom level going down???

If so, you, sir, are no real merchant of dooooommm and should be ashamed of yourself! It should be rising exponentially until June 25.

The d00000mm1 level was higher on Monday because it was a Monday and and Monday's always suck. The d0000mm! level will probably stay steady until something actually changes. As we've gotten no interaction on this stuff at all there's not increase or decrease in the d000mm!

The reveal that we'll be able to purchase stuff in the DDO store that'll let us skip over EDs is a d000m-neutral event. it would lower the d000m but the obvious cash-grab of this off-sets any decrease.

Please do your part in off-setting global-d00ming.

[donblas]

The reveal that we'll be able to purchase stuff in the DDO store that'll let us skip over EDs is a d000m-neutral event. it would lower the d000m but the obvious cash-grab of this off-sets any decrease.
.

Ooh I didn't know this - could you direct me to the info please?

Sorry never mind I found it easily - I shouldn't be so lazy.

[Dolphious]

I really encourage anyone who's worried about AC to log on to lam when it opens again and try out your AC toon in a variety of content.

I did, and the doom and gloom seems completely unfounded. Sure you might get hit a bit more in some places, but you get hit for less damage because of PRR, and your hitpoints tend to go down in a very consistent manner making it easy to know when you need to get out of harm's way.

It really works very well. There might be a handful of places that will get harder for high AC toons, like soloing sins of attrition, but overall this is a great change for people who like defensive melee toons. If you don't believe me go try it out.

[bigolbear]

I really encourage anyone who's worried about AC to log on to lam when it opens again and try out your AC toon in a variety of content.

I did, and the doom and gloom seems completely unfounded. Sure you might get hit a bit more in some places, but you get hit for less damage because of PRR, and your hitpoints tend to go down in a very consistent manner making it easy to know when you need to get out of harm's way.

It really works very well. There might be a handful of places that will get harder for high AC toons, like soloing sins of attrition, but overall this is a great change for people who like defensive melee toons. If you don't believe me go try it out.

plate wearers yes, i agree. The problems lie with light armour wearers and cloth wearers.

hows your monk/rogue in your sig holding up? or wasnt it built for ac to start with?

[Ape_Man]

It really works very well. There might be a handful of places that will get harder for high AC toons, like soloing sins of attrition, but overall this is a great change for people who like defensive melee toons. If you don't believe me go try it out.

I did, and that's why the d00000mm! level is only at 47%.

plate wearers yes, i agree. The problems lie with light armour wearers and cloth wearers.

hows your monk/rogue in your sig holding up? or wasnt it built for ac to start with?

If we actually could get enough dodge on cloth-wearers to make up for the AC they lost (since their PRR is well . . . none) the d000mm! level might even dip into the upper 20s.

[J1NG]

I haven't gone through every post in this thread, so apologies if this is already been covered.

---

If the worry is regarding pure monks and monk splashes, could the Dev's not simply give increasing rewards for the higher levels of the Monk class?

Level 2: +1 AC (using old numbers as example, switch to new ones as required)
Level 5: +1 AC (2 total)
Level 10: +2 AC (4 total)
Level 15: +4 AC (8 total)
Level 20: +10 AC (18 total)

That way, Pure monks will always get the biggest benefit (under reason, Dev's call), whilst the splashes will get more depending on how much Monk they are. Standard 2 splashes will get some benefit but a clear loss vs an advanced monk player.

So I supposed an updated one could look like:

Level 2: +3 AC
Level 5: +3 AC, +1% Dodge
Level 10: +4 AC, +1% Dodge
Level 15: +5 AC, +3% Dodge
Level 20: +10 AC, +5% Dodge

So in the new system I think pure and splashes would get:

Level 2 Monk splashes will get +3 AC
Level 6 Monk splashes will get +6 AC and 1% Dodge
Level 12 Monk splashes will get +10 AC and 2% Dodge
Level 18 Monk splashes will get +15 AC and 5% Dodge
Level 20 Monk will get +25 AC and 10% Dodge

Probably might need to boost the Dodge higher and AC lower (AC equaling a Planeforged Plate probably isn't right )- I don't know how that's intended, but couldn't something like this be implemented to solve the Monk AC splash issue vs the pure Monk?

Might need more feats and time to get it working I know, just adding my thoughts is all.

J1NG

[Ape_Man]

I don't know how that's intended, but couldn't something like this be implemented to solve the Monk AC splash issue vs the pure Monk?

How would that do that when a toon who splashed monk would basically get nothing in your idea?

[J1NG]

How would that do that when a toon who splashed monk would basically get nothing in your idea?

I'm afraid you've lost me. How would "what" do what?

If the Dev's have already placed these changes in place, what I've proposed is no different to what's in the beta. The only difference is the higher levels of Monk which Monk Splash players have nothing to gain from anyway.

:: edit ::

And my proposal is simply that; a proposal. To let the Dev's see/know that they can go an increasing the bonus to higher levels of Monk is all so there's a clear difference between pure monks and monk splashes that won't see monk splashes benefiting as much as pure monks.

J1NG

[Ape_Man]

I'm afraid you've lost me. How would "what" do what?

If the Dev's have already placed these changes in place, what I've proposed is no different to what's in the beta. The only difference is the higher levels of Monk which Monk Splash players have nothing to gain from anyway.

J1NG

I think I read your post wrong. but to answer your question Eladrin's idea of having DEX and WIS added to dodge would solve MUCH of the problem for splash build. Light armor would still be better but not by nearly as much.

[Hajutze]

How would that do that when a toon who splashed monk would basically get nothing in your idea?

> 2 feats
> Evasion
> Stances (+2 to desired stats and some other perks)
> Stunning fist

Good nuff for me.