Combat Change Details

[noinfo]

The issue is that calculations assuming those best case scenarios mean that when you do not have them your best is not really good enough.
MAX mitigation is what i was pointing out, if you dump some to achieve better DPS thats a CHOICE... no change from LIVE

Sorry the last point was best case with displacement throwing it out. I have no worries taking into account any other self based gearing etc.

[krogyy]

Monk needs EQUAL AC to the other defenders to even these out <--bet you never thought that!!
However stance benefits already reduce that.. We need to see monks getting around EQUAL AC values from their sources, vs the armor and shield guys. This should be almost entirely from class however or other cloth/bracer users will be put almost into the defender ac territory by default.

not really. i would say an earth stance monk deserves the same AC as a light armor S&B tank, certainly not as a full plate one. evasion still counts for something, or not?

also, you are forgetting all dodge coming from destinies. it is true that they are available to all but only a light armored toon (and maybe even only a pijama one, not sure about the totals) will manage to get the full benefits.

[Stillwaters]

not really. i would say an earth stance monk deserves the same AC as a light armor S&B tank, certainly not as a full plate one. evasion still counts for something, or not?

Umm Have you seen the new Armor values, assuming you are maxing out the dex value...

AC25 heavy version (+2 from Mobility)
AC27 light version (+2 from Mobility)
These are the same on Light Medium and Heavy armors, only the PRR values are different. Compared to max +8AC for a cloth build. Assuming you take dodge/mobility, you can now reach a whopping 54DEX(+22) before needing to switch to cloth for better ac.
Thats one of the benefits of these new armors, you have more variance of DEX now Between 12 and 52 before its better to be in cloth.

Yes evasion counts for a lot, but a 2 splash(for evasion) 32 DEX defender can wear mithral Medium armor (counts as light) And keep higher AC, and PRR (and improve their max dodge cap)..

To equal this for a
2 monk splash you would need: 3MonkAC + 8 Bracer/robe + 16 from DEX and WIS = 27
6 monk splash you would need: 6MonkAC + 8 Bracer/robe + 13 from DEX and WIS = 27
12 monk splash you would need: 9MonkAC + 8 Bracer/robe + 10 from DEX and WIS = 27
18 monk splash you would need: 12MonkAC + 8 Bracer/robe + 7 from DEX and WIS = 27
20 pure monk you would need: 15MonkAC + 8 Bracer/robe + 4 from DEX and WIS = 27
+ 1 from DEX and WIS for every "enhancement" plus of the armor / shield
+ 9 to 12 from DEX and WIS to equal the shield.
+ 1 from DEX and WIS per tier of stalwart or Dos
+ 1 from DEX and WIS per tier of ftr armor mastery
+ 1 from DEX and WIS per tier of dwarf armor mastery
+ 2 from DEX and WIS for mithral

and defender monks will STILL be 20% behind defender Fighters and Pallys.

Its actually not quite as bad as I first thought....Unless you are a light splash, or defender.

TBH i'm seeing little value in the tower shield on a defender build, the tiny boost in AC and PRR is IMPERCEPTIBLE in late stages of the game, and means less enhancements needed to keep your DEX and Dodge bonuses. (Feat as well on a pally build)

[krogyy]

Umm Have you seen the new Armor values, assuming you are maxing out the dex value...

AC25 heavy version
AC27 light version
These are the same on Light Medium and Heavy armors, only the PRR values are different. Compared to max +8AC for a cloth build. Assuming you take dodge/mobility, you can now reach a whopping 54DEX(+22) before needing to switch to cloth for better ac.
Thats one of the benefits of these new armors, you have more variance of DEX now.

it feels you are playing with the numbers to make look the pijama wearer look bad. for getting 27 ac from armor you need a dex modifier of +18 (+15 with mobility), not exactly low either. also, if assume that the pijama wearer is a splash monk, that +22 modifier can come from wisdom too (having both wisdom and dexterity in the low 30s is not that outlandish).

of course we are forgetting SD bonus here so the light armored tank is better off. on the other hand we are also forgetting the monk's bonus AC also. i think the two setups are quite comparable, as it should be. heavy armored tanks will have better overall defense vs physical attacks but they lose evasion so they are not really directly comparable.

Yes evasion counts for a lot, but a 2 splash(for evasion) 32 DEX defender can wear mithral Medium armor (counts as light) And keep higher AC, and PRR (and improve their max dodge cap)..


TBH i'm seeing little value in the tower shield on a defender build, the tiny boost in AC and PRR is IMPERCEPTIBLE in late stages of the game, and means less enhancements needed to keep your DEX and Dodge bonuses. (Feat as well on a pally build)

mithral armors (and mithral body) are a mess last time i looked. they seemed to have no advantage over a light armor.

[Stillwaters]

it feels you are playing with the numbers to make look the pijama wearer look bad. for getting 27 ac from armor you need a dex modifier of +18 (+15 with mobility), not exactly low either. also, if assume that the pijama wearer is a splash monk, that +22 modifier can come from wisdom too (having both wisdom and dexterity in the low 30s is not that outlandish).

of course we are forgetting SD bonus here so the light armored tank is better off. on the other hand we are also forgetting the monk's bonus AC also. i think the two setups are quite comparable, as it should be. heavy armored tanks will have better overall defense vs physical attacks but they lose evasion so they are not really directly comparable.



mithral armors (and mithral body) are a mess last time i looked. they seemed to have no advantage over a light armor.

light fullplate type:
= 22dex (+6) to cap MDB
6(+3)more if you are a T3defender
6(+3)more still if you were fighter with enhancements
6(+3) more if you were also a dwarf
4(+2)with Mobility so up to 44(+17) DEX in HEAVY armor
48(+19) Switching it down to medium armor via mithral.

max dex values start 10(+5) LESS for normal max fullplate.

Oh and I edited my post above to show DEX/WIS components for monks to equal the armor BASICS (no mithral/enhancements/feats) broke it down by splash.

[krogyy]

last time i looked, mithral medium armor worked exactly the same as light armor with same AC and all. did they fix that?

+ 1 from DEX and WIS for every "enhancement" plus of the armor / shield

are you sure this adds to the AC? i thought it didn't.

+ 1 from DEX and WIS per tier of stalwart or Dos
+ 1 from DEX and WIS per tier of ftr armor mastery
+ 1 from DEX and WIS per tier of dwarf armor mastery
+ 2 from DEX and WIS for mithral

sure but the light armored guys needs to fill these too, and can only use dex for doing so.

[Stillwaters]

last time i looked, mithral medium armor worked exactly the same as light armor with same AC and all. did they fix that?
Mithral adds 2MDB which adds 2 potential AC to the armor, it ALSO lowers the armor rating from hvy to med, or med to light.



are you sure this adds to the AC? i thought it didn't.
Are you serious? yes enhancement adds to the ac.
eg normal heroic fullplate +1 would be ac 9 for eg.


sure but the light armored guys needs to fill these too, and can only use dex for doing so.
True but cloth guys are playing catch-up to BASE light armor value before enhancement is even added.

Monk mitigation needs revision, possibly with some massive jumps in dodge for WIS (it could be capped at stages like monkAC)

Quite often it will now be worth raising up to a heavier armor variant rather than getting your DEX into such high/impossible territory.
The heaviest armor (Planeforged fullplate: MDB 1) can accommodate 34(+12) Dex on a dwarven fighter for eg.

[Cade_Wells]

still no offical reply to the mithral issue on armor?

[chickenmaniac]

Please read this post first!
...snip...
Things we're still watching:
Monks and monk splashes. Further changes may be made to the Monk class to give them a more evasive feel and to improve their defensive ability if it is deemed too weak.

Exhales!

Good to know!

Question:
If we are going to separate AC and DODGE, then why do monks primarily use AC to mitigate damage, and not DODGE? Seems odd

[Don1966]

alrighty, what i, and a lot of people here are seeing is that monks and monk splashes that don't wear armor are getting seriously left behind in being able to get their ac to a meaningful level due to the new target AC. this is partly due to armors getting tiers that massively boost their base AC rating, an example, full plate tier 1 has base AC of 8, full plate tier 5 has a base AC of 24, a 3x increase. non armor sources of AC aren't getting a similar boost.
reading thru the dev posts on this it looks like the devs want tanks to get hit at least 30% of the time. they have devised a new formula and new upper target AC to achieve that. that formula is (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) and the target AC is 180. the new target AC i believe is the crux of the problem with monk and monk splashes being left behind as they can barely achieve half of that AC value. in order for the monk/splashes to get to a 90 AC they have to make extreme sacrifices to almost everything that isn't defense and grind out a lot of gear.
i'd like to propose this, readjust target AC to 100, set an effective cap to achievable AC to 100 like the cap to jump, anything higher is still treated as 100. readjust the formula (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) so that an AC of 100 is hit 30% of the time. readjust the tiers on armor downward by the amounts needed to achieve an AC of 100 with the top tier stuff.
this should keep monk/splashes viable without having to cobble together bonuses to monks that leaves splashes behind, i.e. bonus AC at various levels, forcing every monk/splash to be in earth stance. it also achieves the devs goal of players getting hit at least 30% of the time while making any AC number worthwhile to get. and it also means that non armor AC sources would not have to be adjusted upwards to help monk/splashes.
bear in mind the bonuses i've seen proposed for monks, Monks gain 3 Centered AC instead of 1 at levels 2, 5, 10, 15, and 20, do virtually nothing for a lot of splash builds.
a couple of examples:
the typical clonk builds are 18 cleric/ 2 monk, 17 cleric/3 monk, or 17 cleric/ 2 monk/ 1 some other class and the majority usually stay in ocean stance for the boost to wisdom, no real benefit from the proposed monk changes here.
exploiter builds are typically 18 ranger/ 1 monk/ 1 rogue, and most carry khopeshes, no real bonus from proposed monk changes here and they aren't able to be in a stance due to preferred weapon.

[Chette]

I don't see a huge problem with monk AC right now when you factor in dodge. Yes, monk splash tanks will be a fair bit before fighter or paladin pure tanks, looking at around the 120 AC mark versus the 140-160 for armored tanks. However, when you factor in the dodge percentage, this comes much closer. A 150 AC tank with 10 dodge would be getting hit about 38% of the time in epic LoB, while a 120 AC tank with 20 dodge would be getting hit about 42% of the time. It's much closer than you think when you factor in that high dodge.

However, the major problem lies with physical resistance. From the looks of this, and from my initial number crunch, monk earth stance needs a significant boost to physical resistance. Assuming a 12/6/2 monk tank with first tier defensive either fighter or paladin stance they have a PRR of 22, whereas a pure fighter or armored paladin at 65 (80 if they also use a tower shield, but lets just compare apples to apples here for two TWF builds).

That's a difference of 13% protection vs 31% protection, which is huge. It jumps up to 36% if they swap to a shield.

If you want monk tanks to be even remotely competitive, with no other changes (I know you are considering other modifications to accommodate monk splashes), then earth stance PRR needs a significant boost.

[eonfreon]

Okay. I'm not in Beta so I've been reading these posts with a lot of interest.

The system seems to be bit all over the place, but not really that complicated. The most complicated part about it is how much things will change and the fact the rules themselves are in flux. But that's understandable, considering Turbine is actually taking input and making adjustments.

So in that light, I have to say Turbine needs to really sit down and figure out what the Feats and Enhancements will do in this system AND be consistent.

Right now, the Feats are a mess. Some things are in the "old way" of simple +1 or +5 or -1 or -5 etc and other things are +10%, -5%, +40%, etc. This is horribly confusing and looks ill-thought out. Case in point:

Please read this post first!
Defensive Fighting Defensive Stance: While using Defensive Fighting mode, you gain a 5% bonus to AC and a -5% penalty to-hit. Casting a spell ends this mode.

Combat Expertise Defensive Stance: While using Combat Expertise mode, you suffer -5 to your attack rolls but gain +10% feat bonus to Armor Class. Spells have three times their normal cooldown when this mode is active. Combat Expertise dispels and wards against all Rage effects.

So CE is -5 to hit but Defensive Fighting is -5%? Some consistancy would be nice.

With the change to cooldowns with CE on I believe you've affectively killed CE for my Paladin. The SP cost was prohibitive enough, but to multiply the cooldowns to 3x the normal amount makes it nearly completely useless to my Paladin. Especially for a 10% improvement to AC (which will give far less than an extra 10% avoidance).
Is there any chance you can split CE into 3 stances?
One stance goes back to the original turns off when spell is cast, so that a player has to reapply the stance.
One Stance stays as it is on live and multiplies your SP cost by 2.
One Stance becomes like the Beta one and increases the cooldown.

This allows a player to choose which version of CE he'd like. The code for the old CE stances must still exist. Plus it even makes some thematic sense. This is a Feat that requires a decent investment in Int for classes that would normally dump Int. So CE is "complex" and could be complex enough to have multiple stance options.
Let the player decide on his penalty.

But really, as a mere 10% AC bonus, do you really think it will be OP in the hands of any caster, be he Divine or Arcane?
Truth be told, with the way to-hits are changing for players and Monsters, is it really OP if CE has no penalty and remains constantly on for some builds, like PA is for most intents and purposes on most melee builds? It costs build points and a Feat slot, does it need any further penalties under the new system? It already costs DPS because it can't run at the same time as Power Attack and some other Combat Feat Stances. So if someone turns off PA because he's missing too much and turns on CE because there's no penalty, where's the harm? For 10% extra AC, far less than the 25% extra AC when you're "on the dice" in Live, and with diminishing returns, meaning you're really not getting an extra 10% avoidance "in practice".

Please read this post first!
Dodge Grants you a +1 bonus to your Armor Class that stacks with all other bonuses to AC (this will appear as a feat bonus on your character sheet). You will also gain a 3% Dodge bonus.

Mobility Increases the maximum dexterity bonus permitted by armor and tower shields by 2, and adds a +4 bonus to Armor Class while tumbling. You will also gain a 2% Dodge bonus.

Spring Attack You suffer no penalty to your attack roll when moving and attacking. You will also gain a 2% Dodge bonus.

Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Well, Turbine finally made these of some use besides just qualifying for Tempest. But it seems like Turbine just said; "We'll make the Feats worth something and that'll be a Ranger's "dodge ability" so we won't need to code in any further class options for dodge".
Which completely ignores the fact that not all Rangers are Tempests. I can see Rogues having a greater innate dodge ability than a Ranger, but a Barbarian? Really?
Does Turbine really see barbarians, who traditionally dump Dex, as more nimble than Rangers?

Currently 20th level Tempest has 3% (Dodge) + 2% (Mobility) + 2% (Spring Attack) = 7% Dodge by 6th level. So what does Arcane Archer get?
20th level Barbarian has 6% Dodge. Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge look pretty incredible to me. Why doesn't a Ranger have an equivalent? And a Monk?
It just looks all over the place.

Please read this post first!
Shield Mastery You are skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield.

Improved Shield Mastery You are exceptionally skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 5 when using a buckler or small shield, 10 when using a large shield, or 15 when using a tower shield.

Shield Mastery. So on live someone with Shield Mastery has 20% PRR with a Tower Shield.
With this change even someone in Heavy armor + Tower Shield with full BAB = 20 (11.84%) + 10 (6.22%) = 30 Rating = 16.92% PRR and only 6.22% comes from the shield (but actually 5.08% - see how confusing it is?- you really will have to provide an in-game chart for this- or good documentation in the UI somewhere so that I know my actual protection %, because to me it won't matter what my Physical Resistance Rating is, the important thing is what the real % Protection is).
So on Live someone with Shield Mastery throws on a shield for 20% reduction in damage, while on Beta someone throws on a shield for 6.22 % (or less) reduction in damage.

Personally, I would make Shield Proficiency = Shield Mastery minus the Doublestrike bonus. Keep the Double strike bonus with Mastery and Improvery Mastery.
Make Shield Mastery = Improved Shield Mastery (still less protection than it used to be).
Then buff up Improved Shield Mastery so that taking this higher tier Feat will come at least close to what the lower tier currently is on Live.

By going this route Shield Proficiency also gains a level of innate protection. I like the idea that a shield should always lower some small amount of damage if used by someone who at leasts knows how to hold it properly. And therefore the Shield Mastery Feats refer to people who specialize further in it as a combat style, both offensively and defensively, which is why I like the new doublestrike added ability to Shield Mastery. Before the dps option for Shield users was either Bastard sword/ Dwarven Axe + THF Feats. Now Shield Mastery can supplement some dps as well.
My rational is that Defense should cost some Offense and little cuts Offense down like having a Shield on, so the shield should offer more defense, even more than armor alone. A shield has to be wielded and costs an extra slot. Armor is "always on" and doesn't interfere with attack speed or weapon choice.

[donblas]

I don't see a huge problem with monk AC right now when you factor in dodge. Yes, monk splash tanks will be a fair bit before fighter or paladin pure tanks, looking at around the 120 AC mark versus the 140-160 for armored tanks. However, when you factor in the dodge percentage, this comes much closer. A 150 AC tank with 10 dodge would be getting hit about 38% of the time in epic LoB, while a 120 AC tank with 20 dodge would be getting hit about 42% of the time. It's much closer than you think when you factor in that high dodge.
.

Who is this Elob of whom you speak and how will my lvl8 monk splash get 120AC??

Oh well at least trash will only hit her 5 times as often under these rules. Fun times

[Cashiry]

i dont see any class getting 160-180 ac without Combat Training... I believe 130-140 maybe more realistic with DE skills since they took Combat Training away from us... Also People are still testing things out on Beta with Combat Training which is unrealistic for testing purposes...

I was at 100 ac with lvl 20 gear on Beta servers as an 18 Fighter/2 Pally(No combat Training) 100AC by the way was 69% miss chance.

[Synthetic]

i dont see any class getting 160-180 ac without Combat Training... I believe 130-140 maybe more realistic with DE skills since they took Combat Training away from us... Also People are still testing things out on Beta with Combat Training which is unrealistic for testing purposes...

I was at 100 ac with lvl 20 gear on Beta servers as an 18 Fighter/2 Pally(No combat Training) 100AC by the way was 69% miss chance.

Any chance you could give an AC breakdown? A lot of people seem to think there's a huge gap between monk earth stance and SD fighters now. The gap isn't very large theoretically

Monk
10 base
8 armor
5 deflection
5 natural
4 shield
4 insight
10 dex
10 wis
15 centered bonus
--
71 * 1.2 = 85.2

SD in full plate with level 20+ armors
10 base
29 armor
17 shield
5 deflection
5 natural
4 insight
1 dex
--
71 + ((29+17)*.4 = 18.4) = 89.4 Full Plate

[Cashiry]

Any chance you could give an AC breakdown? A lot of people seem to think there's a huge gap between monk earth stance and SD fighters now. The gap isn't very large theoretically

Monk
10 base
8 armor
5 deflection
5 natural
4 shield
4 insight
10 dex
10 wis
15 centered bonus
--
71 * 1.2 = 85.2

SD in full plate with level 20+ armors
10 base
29 armor
17 shield
5 deflection
5 natural
4 insight
1 dex
--
71 + ((29+17)*.4 = 18.4) = 89.4 Full Plate

Here is what I had when I tabbed over AC on character sheet over on Beta.. without Combat Training.. Dwarf--18 Fighter/2 Paladin. On live servers I have a 84 ac.

10 Base
6 Dex
35 Armour(Epic Cavalry Plate}
19 Shield bonus(Levek's Defender)
6 Natural Armor Bonus
5 Deflection
2 Dodge
8 Misc
9 Feat
-------
100 AC with 69% miss chance


Note: Combat Expertise is only granting +5 ac rather than 10% to armor class that is should be.
Note: I dont believe that the SD III stance is applying the 40% to Armor or shields


Most likely will take some combination of the following as my 3 Fates... depending on which Destiny I belong too...

Draconic Incarnation
T1: Dragonhide (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) +2 natural armor and +2 fortitude saves (6AC overall)

Legendary dreadnought
T2: Improved combat expertise (required 4 - No prereq - Feat prereq: Combat expertise) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 6secs) The combat expertise grants an additional 10 AC

Grandmaster of flowers
T3: Walking with waves (required 8 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Gain cold resistance 4 and +2 to AC (6AC overall)

Unyielding sentinel
T1: Shield prowess (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) Shield AC contribution increased by 30% (not sure if this is 30% per rank or 10% per rank, was very unclear)
T5: Hardened (required 16 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) +3 AC (9AC overall)

Havent really calculated the final out.. since not really sure on what order things get calculated... also.. if the fix SD stance for the 40% and CE to work properly...

[Ape_Man]

I don't see a huge problem with monk AC right now when you factor in dodge. Yes, monk splash tanks will be a fair bit before fighter or paladin pure tanks, looking at around the 120 AC mark versus the 140-160 for armored tanks. However, when you factor in the dodge percentage, this comes much closer. A 150 AC tank with 10 dodge would be getting hit about 38% of the time in epic LoB, while a 120 AC tank with 20 dodge would be getting hit about 42% of the time. It's much closer than you think when you factor in that high dodge.

However, the major problem lies with physical resistance. From the looks of this, and from my initial number crunch, monk earth stance needs a significant boost to physical resistance. Assuming a 12/6/2 monk tank with first tier defensive either fighter or paladin stance they have a PRR of 22, whereas a pure fighter or armored paladin at 65 (80 if they also use a tower shield, but lets just compare apples to apples here for two TWF builds).

That's a difference of 13% protection vs 31% protection, which is huge. It jumps up to 36% if they swap to a shield.

If you want monk tanks to be even remotely competitive, with no other changes (I know you are considering other modifications to accommodate monk splashes), then earth stance PRR needs a significant boost.

Show me a monk-splash getting 120 AC with the current rules, I'd like to see how this is at all possible. A 95 AC tank on live will LOSE about 10 points of AC with dodge equipment no longer giving a bonus.

The 40% multiplier ONLY AFFECTS ARMOR AND SHIELDS. A pajama 18/2 or 12/6/2 tank gains no AC from a defensive stance.

Can a pure monk? I'm asking as I'm not sure how the rules are working right now since I spent the whole weekned BBQing and I'm sure they changed since friday.

Eladrin said they were evaluating giving the DEX and WIS bonuses to Dodge as well as AC and I THINK that'll work out. getting a 30% dodge change might make it viable from how I threw everything together in Excel.

[Desdemonte]

As of now, my 2 monk splash are hooped. Went from an 83 AC to 62, where before 90 was almost no-hit and now more than 3x what I have is no hit.

Not impressed.

I still think halflings still getting AC1 for size bonus when the effective AC range has tripled is lame.

3% Dodge on my chattering ring? Seriously? For the 73 runs I had to do to get that thing? WONDERFUL!!!!!!!

/sarcasm OFF

These changes SUCK!

Old items and bonuses MUST BE IMPROVED!!!!!!

[donblas]

As of now, my 2 monk splash are hooped. Went from an 83 AC to 62, where before 90 was almost no-hit and now more than 3x what I have is no hit.

Not impressed.

I still think halflings still getting AC1 for size bonus when the effective AC range has tripled is lame.

3% Dodge on my chattering ring? Seriously? For the 73 runs I had to do to get that thing? WONDERFUL!!!!!!!

/sarcasm OFF

These changes SUCK!

Old items and bonuses MUST BE IMPROVED!!!!!!

I feel your pain - I have 5 monks splashes. This hastily thrown together mess of an AC pass is not something I like.

The amount of tweaks and changes that people think will be necessary to fix it will never make it into the system in time and there is no way it will all be tested and implemented properly in the next month.

It affects too many classes, races, levels, interactions, spells effects, enhancements, feats, items, songs, abilities, etc (without even thinking about epic levels, feats nad destinies that haven't been finished yet).

I am flabbergasted that they ever thought they could so thoroughly and fundamentally change the AC system in the short time available. It's no wonder the enhancements changes are receding rather quickly into the future (I think the red shift is becoming measurable ) - they will be "fixing" this for quite some time after the expansion goes live.

[Chette]

Show me a monk-splash getting 120 AC with the current rules.

When I said monk splash, I meant 12 monk 8 something else...a misunderstanding, we seem to be discussing different builds.

I have no input on the /2 monk builds, never having played one.