Feedback: Shadowdancer

[kailiea]

I finally maxed my rogues destiny and began to play around with consume and was very disappointed. Consume has to pass a spell pen check which most rogues are not going to be able to do especially fighting drow at end game. Even if they manage to squeeze in a spell pen item it won't mean much against the mobs we are currently facing off against.

I would also like to know how the DC is calculated because it was was extremely low(32) when I cast it in pvp against a guildie. Is it supposed to be based off my int score or something else? The effect registered as implosion in pvp so does that mean we need to also have evocation focus?

Over all I enjoy the rest of the features within the destiny but that is sort of frustrating.

[Genasi]

Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.

Shadow Training I: Passive - You gain +1 sneak attack die per Shadowdancer level.
Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).
Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.
Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.
Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.
Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

I think this addresses a lot of what people wanted to see from the Destiny. I'll also still be adding a choice between melee/ranged versions of Dark Shrouding and Executioner's Strike, a tumble-through-monsters effect for Shadow Form, a +2 Assassinate boost per tier of Stealthy, and a +2 flanking bonus per tier of Technician.

In addition to those changes I'll give Cloak of Shadows negative energy damage protection in addition to the light damage protection. I'll see if I can remove the spell penetration check from Consume (since a DC based on Int is really enough, you shouldn't have to wear caster gear to use this ability dependably), and I'll pull the undead traits off the Shadow Form too. Although they make sense for a Shadow, the characters mainly interested in this Destiny just don't have the same tools available to them as Pale Masters (namely a Death Aura for healing).

[Shade]

Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.

This one posses an issue.

This line is pretty nice for a tank to swap into if he knows hes doing a caster-heavy quest and wants to reduce more spell damage with evasion. EG: Say something like epic chronoscope.

But now tanks would suffer from that threat issue.

So make that a toggle please.

[Vazok1]

Looks good, Im very much looking forward to having jump while sneaking

[Scraap]

Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

I would really really advise you to make that deception proc an actively selectable like PA or CE until you folks hunt down what's up with blinded and immobilized mobs. That's not even getting into what that does to the agro list.

[Tid12]

Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.

Shadow Training I: Passive - You gain +1 sneak attack die per Shadowdancer level.
Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).
Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.
Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.
Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.
Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

I think this addresses a lot of what people wanted to see from the Destiny. I'll also still be adding a choice between melee/ranged versions of Dark Shrouding and Executioner's Strike, a tumble-through-monsters effect for Shadow Form, a +2 Assassinate boost per tier of Stealthy, and a +2 flanking bonus per tier of Technician.

In addition to those changes I'll give Cloak of Shadows negative energy damage protection in addition to the light damage protection. I'll see if I can remove the spell penetration check from Consume (since a DC based on Int is really enough, you shouldn't have to wear caster gear to use this ability dependably), and I'll pull the undead traits off the Shadow Form too. Although they make sense for a Shadow, the characters mainly interested in this Destiny just don't have the same tools available to them as Pale Masters (namely a Death Aura for healing).

This really looks good.

However, 5 minute cooldown for 30 seconds use? Seems a bit too much IMHO. Either make it last 2 min with 5 min cooldown or make it 30 sec/2 min cooldown.

EDIT: I didnt see the Shadow Tier V. Seems fine then (even if i like the 2 min/5 min cooldown option. Short terms clickies are bad imho)

[Tid12]

This one posses an issue.

This line is pretty nice for a tank to swap into if he knows hes doing a caster-heavy quest and wants to reduce more spell damage with evasion. EG: Say something like epic chronoscope.

But now tanks would suffer from that threat issue.

So make that a toggle please.

IMHO, All enhancements that reduce/increase aggro, from epic destinies or not, should be made toggles. On my caster I have Subtle Spellcasting II but sometimes I WANT the aggro. If you can make this work genasi, please do so. Would really LOVE LOVE LOVE to see this.

[Genasi]

So make that a toggle please.

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

I would really really advise you to make that deception proc an actively selectable like PA or CE until you folks hunt down what's up with blinded and immobilized mobs. That's not even getting into what that does to the agro list.

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

[LeLoric]

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

I still think physical vulnerability would be good here it's a thematically appropriate ability for rogues (moreso than divines and bards I would think) and works on both trash and bosses. Maybe each vorpal procs a 5 sec 5% physical vulnerability or do stacking 1% or something similar.

[Shade]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

Toggles are pretty simple once and done things, not obnoxious imo. Automatically losing threat from things you cant control can be though.

Though ideally you could get it to remember it between log in/out like metas (and unlike power attack, brute fighting and well everything else).

[oradafu]

Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.
Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

<snip>

Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

Since people are complaining about the 20% less threat, I think making this a toggle might be a good idea. For Rogues, it could just be added to the Subtle Backstab toggle, while others would gain the toggle.

As for the Finessable weapons, I'm hoping that after the enhancements are added, this will be available to the other weapons that might not be finessable that gain a Dex to-hit when/if they are added. For example, the often asked for Dex to-hit for staves by Acrobats.

As others have said, I hope Dark Deception isn't a redux of Deception with its weird aggro resetting and movement when CCed. Instead, I'm hoping it's just a passive effect like Opportunist that proccs without causing the weirdness.

Besides those comments, this looks great. Thanks.

[Tid12]

I still think physical vulnerability would be good here it's a thematically appropriate ability for rogues (moreso than divines and bards I would think) and works on both trash and bosses. Maybe each vorpal procs a 5 sec 5% physical vulnerability or do stacking 1% or something similar.

How about this AND 5/10% chance to trigger Hamstring on the mob?

[kailiea]

How about they fix consume?

[Scraap]

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

Fraid not Chief. Negs might be interesting if it bypassed wards. Say similar to the stat-wards but down to 5 as opposed to 10 for a single? Is after all a cap ability, so just vs trash seems kinda... yeah.

[Sgt_Hart]

Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.
Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).

I'd still rather see a Shadow pounce. The T2 is nifty, if perhaps a touch long on the CD for how useful it is(Less issue at higher tier.) I'd still go 3/1 on cooldown timer. I mean 30 seconds out of 5 minutes. 30(Duration) / 300(Cooldown) = 0.1. So, micromanaging it to run as much as possible, its on 10% of the time.

16% after timer reduction. Given your not picking optimum time either.. I can't really guess at the stat's on that. on 2% of the quest?

16%
25% looks a lot better to me.

Still rather have shadow jump. <Pipedream>Shadowwalk VFX with wing effect on a 30 or 45s recharge maybe? 1X day recharge like FVS</Pipedream>

Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.

The T5 is problematic, namely as shadowwalk ends on attack. D-door on a counter is fine. It's an emergency button. Shadowwalk however, my bard/archer cast's 14 times per quest, because even shooting an arrow from his bow.. ends it.

No matter that he had no target. No matter that he did no damage. He drew and fired into a wall. Shadowwalk is over.

IMO you either need to split those, or expect that 80% of the potential is wasted.

<Pipedream>Shadowpounce could Be an alt use, with larger range, and free attack. Use the radius of maybe an eternal wand with LOS restriction, and a good free sneak upon target. Use same counter as shadowjump, and kick the total up to maybe.. 3 that recharge. Could get in a good ambush (Hit near melee, Tab, His caster behind him, Turn, tab again, and hit another melee) in every 2nd encounter or so to my thinking.</pipedream>

Dark Deception: Passive - Evasion & In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

That's... really F'ing cool, if problematic as others have mentioned.

[SableShadow]

Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.

Shadow Training I: Passive - You gain +1 sneak attack die per Shadowdancer level.
Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).
Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.
Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.
Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.
Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

I think this addresses a lot of what people wanted to see from the Destiny. I'll also still be adding a choice between melee/ranged versions of Dark Shrouding and Executioner's Strike, a tumble-through-monsters effect for Shadow Form, a +2 Assassinate boost per tier of Stealthy, and a +2 flanking bonus per tier of Technician.

In addition to those changes I'll give Cloak of Shadows negative energy damage protection in addition to the light damage protection. I'll see if I can remove the spell penetration check from Consume (since a DC based on Int is really enough, you shouldn't have to wear caster gear to use this ability dependably), and I'll pull the undead traits off the Shadow Form too. Although they make sense for a Shadow, the characters mainly interested in this Destiny just don't have the same tools available to them as Pale Masters (namely a Death Aura for healing).

Veeeeery slick.

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

Another one would be obnoxious ... maybe just add to an existing enhancement?

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

Yeah, most mobs that are cc'd will skate if blinded (radiance/deception). Looks like all the raid bosses got fixed a while back, however.

[voodoogroves]

Bah - the door / lever while stealth/invis would have been the hotness ;-)

Liking these much better. Agree on the timer for Shadow Walk ... that's not an every 5 minutes ability if you really want to use it. D-Door, totally ok with the timer on that.

Could you limit them to using shrouds or something? There's already a decent cool down on d-door, and with a shroud-cost, you would be trading offense for utility if it primed Shadow Walk.



Blindness still causes wandering. I don't think it's necessarily deception-based; holds/stuns/paralyzers still do it often enough to be annoying.

[black_pearl2001]

We've had a few meetings, and we agree with you that character build defining abilities like "gets Dex to damage" aren't going to be a good thing to have in epic destinies. These are things that really need to be available to characters that want to do that sort of thing relatively early in their careers (just like how we removed the BAB requirement from Weapon Finesse so long ago).

I know that many people aren't going to like to hear it, but I'm having Genasi remove the ability from the Shadowdancer, we need to handle abilities like that by letting characters have that sort of thing early on. There will be abilities like this in the new enhancement system, which seems to be a much better place for it.

Now we just need to make some abilities to replace those in the Shadowdancer innate line. Anything you guys want to suggest to Genasi?

Edit:
Note: He probably won't use your ideas exactly as written, but they might get him to think of something cool.

I agree that these things need to be addressed during heroic levels, probably via heroic enhancements but I disagree that it needs to be completely removed from the epic destiny. Speaking as a player with a L20 halfling rogue as my main character, AP are already short as is if the enhancement pass is where said changes will occur.

As I already mentioned in a previous post, the Legendary Dreadnaught destiny has a heap of epic versions of existing heroic enhancements that cannot be taken if the heroic version is held. That is great because I can just take the epic version and free up a tonne of heroic AP for use elsewhere. Why can this not be done in the case of Shadowdancer instead of making the enhancement choice even more restrictive for some classes like dex based rogues?

If you go this route you will need to consider the AP cost.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).

I STRONGLY dislike this being an epic ability. At the very least, some neutered version should be available to all stealth-based classes sub-epic. We should be able to open doors and jump while stealthed, even if it, say, lowered our hide/MS by 20 for 2 seconds.

[HarveyMilk]

I agree with some others here that 30 seconds is too short. I'd keep the cool-downs as is, and just bump the duration up to 1 minute.